My problem with Materium Affinity

[Wildwiredweasel]

I like that thought, but boosting magic is astral territory. Though an astral materium tome could focus on something like that. Combining the understanding of astral with a plan/construct to make it easier to use

In the aow cosmos the source of magic is the astral sea. Where it pierces into the material worlds we find mana crystals.

Cutting the connection to the astral sea (by for example using the seals, which led to aow3) will prevent mana from entering. Controlling the seals, according to the victory screen, gives you full control over the magic on the realm and allows you to eject all other godir.

Ehhh it IS, but...

keh. Getting changes made like that might get me skinned alive, even if i were to succeed. I don't care about internal coherence nearly as much as other people care about theirs. : P

You mentioned something. Mana crystals. Are there magical 'creatures' that feed on mana crystals, but are not astral spirits? Might be a lead, there.

Short of some kind of clockwork god, though, with clockwork angels, i don't think we'll be getting materium based concept id.

 

[STARSDragoon]

Ehhh it IS, but...

keh. Getting changes made like that might get me skinned alive, even if i were to succeed. I don't care about internal coherence nearly as much as other people care about theirs. : P

You mentioned something. Mana crystals. Are there magical 'creatures' that feed on mana crystals, but are not astral spirits? Might be a lead, there.

Short of some kind of clockwork god, though, with clockwork angels, i don't think we'll be getting materium based concept id.

Well, creatures in the astral sea eat souls. I would assume souls are a form of mana or other kind of power source.

About your edited question:
The material planes are what materium is. Astral is essentially the eldritch ocean. Materium the familiar islands called planets/worlds/realms. Essentially both are forms of reality that oppose each other to a certain extent. Like you cant have a landmass and the ocean in the same place.

 

[ReckonerIL]

So you think using magic glyphs to power machines doesnt involve magic?

I think that if you can completely rationalize some phenomenon, i.e. prove it exists, explain why and how it works, manipulate/replicate it, then it stops really be magic for you, because it losses necessary part of being mystical/supernatural/based on belief.

 

[STARSDragoon]

I think that if you can completely rationalize some phenomenon, i.e. prove it exists, explain why and how it works, manipulate/replicate it, then it stops really be magic for you, because it losses necessary part of being mystical/supernatural/based on belief.

With that Definition every wizard is something like an engineer. You can go with that but most people will still call a wizard a wizard.

 

[ReckonerIL]

With that Definition every wizard is something like an engineer.

It depends on how each specific individual approach magic, if it's through scientific cognition, then it's one thing, if it's through some divine/supernatural/spiritual entities or beliefs, it's another thing. I'm fine with wizard kings being called wizards anyway, it's just semantics. I just was explaining why for example using magic and simultaneously hating on magic users isn't an absurd in fantasy worlds like one of AoW.

 

[ataraciuk]

So, an alternative would be to make Materium more about the delivery/channel than the object itself? Like making magic more replicable, needing less mana, etc.? On one hand, that would give it its own identity and differentiation. On the other hand, it is an identity that will need other inputs too to mean something, a channel without a message is kind of meaningless, materium would need other affinities for the what, which I think is part of the original perceived problem.

Maybe it needs to instead focus more on the what vs the how to have a proper identity? Doubling down on earth, underground, metal, mountains, lava, etc. And just have more content related to that? IDK, maybe the ability to create underground/above passages, 'dome' an aboveground city to give it underground tag.

 

[STARSDragoon]

It depends on how each specific individual approach magic, if it's through scientific cognition, then it's one thing, if it's through some divine/supernatural/spiritual entities or beliefs, it's another thing. I'm fine with wizard kings being called wizards anyway, it's just semantics. I just was explaining why for example using magic and simultaneously hating on magic users isn't an absurd in fantasy worlds like one of AoW.

Hypocrisy is an easier explanation though. Like with phobius, magic bad, except mine, me good.

 

[lucaluca]

my problem is that it's a dev favorite and it's always overpowered

 

[seperamos]

Materium already has all the tomes and possible paths it needs to represent its original archetypes. I strongly believe that this affinity should continue to represent anti-magic and scientific excellence and engineering for all cultures that pursue this affinity exclusively or in secondary fashion. Elementalism focusing on earthly terrain and especially a Rock related subpath makes sense, and I would even go so far as to replace tome of winds with another more rock related tome to finesse the tome path, it is enjoyable to see gargoyles and rock spirits supplement materium armies. I would also like to see Constructs further enriched with focus on gunpowder and/or severing subpaths and a major transformation involving Constructs. If its possible to advocate for a third path here, as all affinities should have, it would be enjoyable to see a tome path that focuses exclusively on crafting better arms and armor for units and her0s, henceforth dubbed 'Runesmithing' for an example. if there are better ideas for materium's third path, i'd like to hear it and compare them too.

 

[Blanch Warren]

I strongly believe that this affinity should continue to represent anti-magic

listen here

reavers combine the material and the arcane

Enchantment is truly a union of the worldly and the arcane,

marrying machine with magic that can level or raise a city... they may veritably claim the title of artificer

Open yourself to the earth's magic

If your mark is prone to conjuring astral creatures, it is vital to sever their connection and remove their arcane crutch.

This is achieved through a complex incantation

 

[Ferrus Animus]

IMO one problem I see with materium is that one of it's two main themes so far is elementalism, yet ice is in shadow, fire partly in chaos, lightning astral (and nature with storm). This muddles the theme a bit more compared to other affinities main themes.

 

[Astronlmo]

It's not really elementalism as a whole, but rather earth and fire specifically.

Frost is screwed, yes.

Lightning is alright in astral and in general is against the materium.

 

[Ferrus Animus]

The Tome of Winds is also in materium

 

[Grakor Spiriteye]

My interpretation is that Materium governs physical elements, not any form of energy (which would be the other affinities) and not the living forms of nature (which would be Nature.) So earth and wind are there, and Materium's flirting with fire is specifically as it relates to lava and magma, solid things that just happen to be really, really hot and beneath the surface of the earth.

If there ever is a "Tome of Water" added to the game, it would be at least partially Materium for the same reason.

So it's not elementalism persay, but specifically geomancy. It's drawing power from the earth and wind, the planet itself, not the living things leeching off of it. It's divining things from the patterns of sand dunes and rock formations. It's listening to the wind and the lapping of waves. It's about studying the earth itself to know the best places to build on. Materium mages would be very into feng shui.

I think it might get confusing because people hear "elementalism" and think World of Warcraft shamans or something. Which is kinda-sorta related, but not exactly the same thing. Again, my interpretation, but it seems consistent to me.

 

[Astronlmo]

Order is celestial spirit - spirit element.

Chaos is fires of hell - fire element.

Shadow is from realm of darkness, it sucks the life from the living, leaving only frozen and decaying corpses - frost and blight.

Astral is astral sea, pure energy - lightning.

Nature is the living body and the power of cycles - blight (due to decay and rebirth).

Materium is the power of realm itself, the rock, the magma, the wind - thus physical and partially fire.

 

[ataraciuk]

IMO one problem I see with materium is that one of it's two main themes so far is elementalism, yet ice is in shadow, fire partly in chaos, lightning astral (and nature with storm). This muddles the theme a bit more compared to other affinities main themes.

Yeah and then druidic terraformers trait is nature, even if it deals with elementals, I guess because the focus on terraforming. Same with the magic materials one, even if they are used for the forge. So, there is an indication that 'living off the land' and resource extraction is kind of nature sphere, while at the same time (sometimes) it would depend more on the terrain type vs. the activity itself? Quarries/doing stuff to mountains is materium, but I also see a contradiction in tome of winds being materium but expert sailors being nature. Would a trait about getting something extra from snow terrain be shadow or nature affinity then?

 

[STARSDragoon]

Yeah and then druidic terraformers trait is nature, even if it deals with elementals, I guess because the focus on terraforming. Same with the magic materials one, even if they are used for the forge. So, there is an indication that 'living off the land' and resource extraction is kind of nature sphere, while at the same time (sometimes) it would depend more on the terrain type vs. the activity itself? Quarries/doing stuff to mountains is materium, but I also see a contradiction in tome of winds being materium but expert sailors being nature. Would a trait about getting something extra from snow terrain be shadow or nature affinity then?

The snow trait would depends on the fluff. Turning ice into buildings could be materium. Exploiting the ices resources despite it being hostile could be nature. Exploiting ice by becoming like ice would be shadow.

 

[seperamos]

It might be a better idea to distinguish the tomes between Materium, Nature, Shadow, and Astral so that there is less confusion for what affinity specializes in what elements. Wind magic could very easily apply to Nature, Shadow, or Astral, and if Materium governs all elemental magics in the game, it would prove to be too powerful of an affinity. We need a clearer distinction between affinities and their mono-focused tomes. Each affinity should have their trademark element and a possible hybrid path that combines their trademark element with the elements of other paths for sustainable combo affinity strategies.

I would love to see more tomes that emphasize radiance, death, arcfire, ghostfire, and other combinations. Units and heroes using such combos make for powerful units, and expand strategies for players that would be naturally weakened from one affinity to the other.

 

[Nerdfish]

This isn't really about balance at all, so much as about flavor and fantasy.

Most magic affinities have some kind of fantasy associated with them. Order makes you feel like a kind of god, while Chaos makes you a devil. With Nature, you're an great druid or archfey. With dark, you're an evil sorcerer and necromancer. And with Astral, you're the quintessential archmage delving into the eldritch and unknowable.

And with Materium you're... a dwarf a guess? Sort of? It's kind of all over the place, which is kind of frustrating because I feel that the central fantasy that could be behind it is staring me in the face in the form of the item forge, yet Materium only has a couple of nods towards it instead of being built more around it. Because I think the great fantasy around Materium is (or at least ought to be) being the sort of great, legendary smith who forged the many magical items in the world. You're Vulcan, Hephaestus, Aulë the Smith, Fëanor and Celebrimbor, so on and so forth. Even with the dwarf theme, I'd argue that the forging of magical items is central to their identity. Not only were dwarves known to smith many magical items in Norse mythology, but its also an important part of their lore in Tolkien. If you remember,


Which makes me kind of wish that Materium tomes could come with item forge effects, or ways of gaining binding essence/fragments, as a way of centering Materium around the concept of being this great magical craftsman and sorcerer smith.

Once again, I'd like to reiterate that I'm not making any claim about Materium in a balance sense. I'm not saying that their tomes, buildings, cultures, etc are good or bad in a balance sense. I just wish they had more of that central theme and fantasy like you have with other affinities.

IMHO In general the Materium is the fantasy of the Tinker / Engineer. Golems, guns, enough industrial power to turn every enemy into a roadkill.

 

[Blanch Warren]

Turning ice into buildings could be materium.

Primal doesn't seem to specifically think so, and they get a production bonus.