Mysore building walls? Why not China?

[WhiteHojo]

The reason this thread is in the "scenario" section is that this question has to do w/making China/Nippon, etc. more playable in the Euro sense.

That is, as I understand it, China and other non Euro Nations (often refered to as ROTW types I believe) are not capable of building any city improvements (govs, bailiffs, walls, etc...) This limitation, while understandable I guess (China w/the ability to actually improve their economy would be scarry), does rather upset me.

So, playin as China last nite, I found I was unable to build any city improvements - understandable. After DOWing Mysore, I captured their central provence and received it in a peace settlement. All 3 provences prior to the war had "minimal" fort levels. (I checked b/f attacking). After taking the mid prov'nce, my fort level stayed at Minimal (lvl 1) - then I noticed Mysore building lvl 2 forts to my N and S. I was still unable to increase the fort size of the mid provn'ce.

My Q is why are the Indian Sub Continent Nations able to build forts and China/Nippon is not? Is this a limited ability of the Indians (only allowing construction of lvl 2 forts) or can they build all types of city improvements? Can anyone explain why Mysore can do this and not China? (I assume it might be hardcoded in the game but the threads I've read seem to be unclear on whether anyone can say for sure it is or is not)

Has anyone made any progress (or is anyone even trying) on moddin the non Euro countries to be able to play more European (building city improvements)?

Thanks in advance - just a poor novice looking for enlightenment

Forgot to add - playin the IGC 2.0k over the latest UE patch...

 

[Soapy Frog]

On that note, I think China SHOULD be able build all the city improvements... China SHOULD be scary.

It should be REALLY tough to conquer China in this time period... as it stands it is QUITE easy. Japan likewise. Maybe culling a province or too would be possible, or slowly eroding them, but outright conquest should be super difficult.

The Indians should be a little tougher too... Mysore and Hyderabad are pushovers. Mughal at least has a bit of punch.

 

[BiB]

I think the best one can do right now is give China/Japan big starting forts.

 

[WhiteHojo]

Originally posted by BiB
I think the best one can do right now is give China/Japan big starting forts.

I agree - but my question is more of why can the Mysore improve city structures and not China? (more of a practical why can't they instead of a theoretical why should they?)

 

[unmerged(2925)]

Mysore tech

My Q is why are the Indian Sub Continent Nations able to build forts and China/Nippon is not? Is this a limited ability of the Indians (only allowing construction of lvl 2 forts) or can they build all types of city improvements? Can anyone explain why Mysore can do this and not China? (I assume it might be hardcoded in the game but the threads I've read seem to be unclear on whether anyone can say for sure it is or is not)

Mysore is part of the Moslem tech group, while China is in the Exotic tech group. Also it may be hardcoded. I know that the Aztecs and Incas can't advance in tech at all.

 

[BiB]

Just the way the game is made.

 

[WhiteHojo]

Re: Mysore tech

Originally posted by Mikhail I


Mysore is part of the Moslem tech group, while China is in the Exotic tech group. Also it may be hardcoded. I know that the Aztecs and Incas can't advance in tech at all.

Thanks for the input...

BiB - I shall meditate long and deeply over your words of enlightenment.

 

[BiB]

 

[Stonewall]

If you go into the 1492_IGC or 1492 file located in the scenarios folder or even just a saved game file, you can change the tech group of the Chinese or Japanese from exotic to Muslim or whatever you want. Its not hardcoded that the Chinese can't build things...I've made a scenario where the Chinese can build everything any European power could. Also, it might me worthwhile if you're looking to make a more historically "unconquerable" China/Japan to edit the religion of them to Muslim as well...that gives them the Muslim morale boost to their armies and navies. However, in the end, the most effective way I've found to make them more difficult to conquer is to just give them level 6 forts across the board and a muslim religious stance (for the morale boost) and not play with the tech modifier.

 

[BiB]

The morale boost might be overdoing it a bit The fortresses are supposed to symbolise how hard it was to control such vast tracks of lands. Don't think the armies were extremely superior. It just should be near impossible to control the lands.

 

[Mohe]

Originally posted by Soapy Frog
On that note, I think China SHOULD be able build all the city improvements... China SHOULD be scary.

It should be REALLY tough to conquer China in this time period... as it stands it is QUITE easy. Japan likewise. Maybe culling a province or too would be possible, or slowly eroding them, but outright conquest should be super difficult.

The Indians should be a little tougher too... Mysore and Hyderabad are pushovers. Mughal at least has a bit of punch.

I have several proposals to fix the china Japan too weak problem

1. move china and Japan into the islamic tech group (this won't really be too much of a bonus to them because both China and Japan are too weak anyway, especiaslly with large chunks of china being terra incognita) One potential problem is that if the islamic tech tree must be connected to religion, an islamic china (a rather ugly stop gap) would be affected by the religion sliders which would be a big problem.

2. create Choson (Korea) currently the two Korean Provinces are part of china, they were historically independent (these provinces should start heavily fortified to reflect the extreme difficulty with Korean resistance both China and Japan had in their invasions/interventions in Korea this period. I'll do some research and try and create a monarch list for Korea.

3. for historic reasons I thgink Ayyuthaya and Dai Viet should remain with the same build limitaions (as should Korea if created)

4. What I would really like to see, but it may be too difficult to manage in the current version of the game is a Ming dynasty collapse event (and possibly a Manchu State) to represent the Manchu conquest of China which would create lots of opportunities to occupy the East Asian.

Just some rough ideas

 

[Stonewall]

If it were possible, one might even be able to program in a Dutch nationalism type revolt in any Chinese of Japanese core province not under their control. Imagine the sight of a 150k+ army of rebel scum 4 or 5 times per year...enough to make anyone give up dreams of Asian conquest...but alas, I don't know quite how to go about doing that.

 

[InfernalMIKO]

I'm certainly in favor of anything that makes it harder to just roll over Japan and China, but I'm biased obviously.:^)

If there was some way to allow Japan to build different things at different times that would be more ideal. Military tended to be pushed for the whole period, though less so once the Sengoku and Korean Wars were over. Certainly fortifications were build quite a bit as well, so much so restrictions on how many castles could be in a province were finally put into place, I believe under the Tokugawa Shogunate. Trade and Infrastructure are something else totally, especially once Japan closes off. Trade withered away save for a small Dutch trading post and infrastructure would be a main priority. I suspect this is the sort of thing that is hardcoded in, so just putting in the Fort(4) should be enough for now. It's cool there is a way to play as China or Nippon but the game's still mostly about Europe.:^)

All Purpose Cultural Goth Girl

Miko

 

[Soapy Frog]

In my last game I played Russia on Very Hard/Furious using 1.08/IGC 2.0k... by the end of the game I had conquered Norway, Half of Sweden, Finland, all the Baltic States, Denmark, most of Holland, ALL of the German States including Helvetia, Nivernais, Champagne, Artois, about a third of Italy, All of Poland, Austria, Hungary, the entire Adriatic coast, everything down to Bulgaria and Rumelia, Crimea, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Khorum, All of Siberia with several cities and the rest about half colonies, half trade posts.

I was bloody enormous. The scary thing was that China was the same size as me. They had diplo-annexed Japan, Dai Viet, Attuthaya and even set up some colonies and trade posts on the edges of their vast realm. I tried fighting a war with them, and went to great effort to build up a large army in the far east and was soundly thrashed for my efforts through the sheer weight of their numbers.

So, needless to say, I don't think China is a pushover anymore... but is there some way to prevent it from diplo-annexing it's neighbours? that didn't seem like a likely turn of events.

If their diplomacy is brought under control, I think the Far East (esp. with the lvl. 4 forts in IGC 2.1) has finally become scary enough to make foreign domination a SERIOUS task.

 

[unmerged(2772)]

And I think that the ability of Chinese Emperors are either over- or under-estimated. For most of the Ming Emperors, their abilities were not that high. For some Qing Emperors, such as Kang-qi (Hsuen-Yen)and Qian-long (Hung-Li),their abilities may be the best in 5000 years' Chinese history.