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Technically with Gamersgate if you keep the DL install folder, you do not need to be logged in to install the game if you deleted it from your system or wish to install it again. You are only loggin in to download it from your account.
But that require certain 'unofficial' method. The installer is encrypted by default, you still have to log in to your account. From my experience even with that 'unofficial' method, some of the installer are not working properly. Make no mistake, the game is still DRM free you don't have to be online after installing it. But i don't consider Gamers Gate as 100% DRM free as advertised since there's no valid option to keep / backup the installer. It's not really different from Steam, minus the client.

The reason why i prefer Gamers Gate over Steam (for non Steamwork title) is simply because i don't need to install any third party client and have more control over mods and update, but that's irrelevant to the topic here.
 
Really depends on how the game is structured as far as main game / DLC goes. If it's like CK II where major game mechanics are introduced in DLCs then I have a problem with it, if the DLCs are more cosmetic then I don't. Because from what I gather in the EU IV forum, the base game (SP anyway) can be fully played and more or less "owned" by you even if you treat Steam as an installer only, but DLCs can't - i.e. they apparently can't be moved without using Steam again. So for those you're fully dependent on a random third party while for the base game you apparently aren't (beyond the initial install, which I personally don't see as a problem). I'm not sure about the definition of DRM so technically there might not be any in EU IV, but fundamentally there sure is as far as the DLCs go.
 
Even off-line Steam games are somewhat protected due to installation restrictions and time constraints for someone who wants to break it.

At least in Germany Valve is being sued.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2026797/valve-sued-in-germany-over-game-ownership.html

But that is only a small step towards more usability and only if its succeeds. And that won't fix the high number of issues with Steam.

* Potential shut-down of your account (for instance when you don't submit to new terms).

* Annoying, time-consuming update processes without bug-fixes.

* Bad, bad software with graphical glitches and crashes.

* Valve lying about Linux compatibility. Ubuntu and similar distributions are only a subset of Linux.

* Valve not managing to let rightful owners allow to register their games. No method to fight that stance unless you live in the US.

* Steam-guard doesn't remember my browser. Have to turn it off completely or acccess my E-Mail-account every time.


Interesting that they call themselves Valve. Some of the valves are wrongly adjusted.
 
Are you insane? Fast lane to bankruptcy there.

I like the digital distribution model, I don't even buy boxed games any more, but I don't like needing outside software to install and launch my games, especially software that thinks it knows what I want better than I do. If I needed someone to hold my hand and tell me what I like, I'd be typing this to you on an Apple.

I'm not going to argue with you guys, because it's your company, and you guys get to decide how to make your games and how to best feed your families. I love your games, and I'd love nothing more than to buy every single one of them, but I also need to take a stand and vote with my wallet when needbe. If I'm nothing but part of some fringe anti-Steam minority, so be it, nothing will change for you guys, except maybe you'll be short $5 or so in some future paycheck (if that). But if enough people decide that they don't like the idea that Steam is soon going to be the only place to buy games online (and even if you buy it somewhere else, you still need to install Steam), then maybe things will change.

Either way, you guys are a great developer, and I wish you the best. You've left me with plenty of great games to play, and a community that I like being a part of. So for that, thank you. :)
 
Honestly at the end of the day I like the fact Paradox make games, now if they had to split their resources between two versions which drains money and therefore potential future investment in new games and tech then the number of games and quality of games dries up as they are unable to invest.

If its come to the point where they invest 50-50 on Crusader Kings 2 versions but over 90% of the consumer base buys one version its evident half of that waste needs cutting. This allows them to focus all 100% onto the Steam version which will see higher sales by far therefore meaning less bugs, more features or less man hours so the team can work elsewhere.

As a consumer who enjoys Paradox games I know full well this is worth supporting.
 
Are you insane? Fast lane to bankruptcy there.

You guys will do what you want, that's ok it's your business, but I've saved easily over $800 USD (probably closer to $1000) since the steam issue arose here. I love your games other than that.
Makes me sad. Your forum is still the greatest though.
 
In what way have you saved that money? And you have at least 2 Steam only games registered there, Magicka and SotS2, now that I look.
 
I like the digital distribution model, I don't even buy boxed games any more, but I don't like needing outside software to install and launch my games, especially software that thinks it knows what I want better than I do. If I needed someone to hold my hand and tell me what I like, I'd be typing this to you on an Apple.

Just to be clear, you don't need Steam to launch any of the PDS games on Steam, you can install the game and remove Steam if you like, although I'd recommend keeping it around for patches even if you don't run it. You don't need to buy through Steam either, plenty of sites like Amazon digital or Gamersgate also sell steam codes.

Obviously you may still decline, but you shouldn't miss out on our games due to bad information at least.
 
DRM:
Checking that you are legally entitled to the game before installing is NOT DRM.

I love Steam, and I own literally hundreds of games on Steam. However, checking that you are legally entitled to a game before installing IS most definitely a form of DRM, by definition. It is performing MANAGEMENT my RIGHTS to install the game by performing DIGITAL verification of that right. If you say that is not DRM, then what would you call something like a GOG game installer where they don't perform that check, less than not DRM?

If I bought I new computer and my Internet happened to go out that night, I would be able to install all of my GOG games, which I have already downloaded an archived. However, I wouldn't be able to do that with my Steam games, even though I have also backed up and archived those locally. I need to log into Steam even to restore my local backup copies, so it can digitally verify my right to do so.

I have reliable Internet, so in practice it would be rare for me to have such a problem, and I therefore find this system acceptable compared to many other more draconian forms of DRM. However, I'm not going to argue for a minute that it isn't a form of DRM. Even Paradox spin-off company GamersGate agrees with me, since they list "DRM: Steamworks" for any game that requires Steam to install.

(Edit: Although to be fair, when GamersGate lists "DRM: Steamworks" that would refer to a full-fledged Steamworks game that is only available to be run through Steam, as a opposed to a non-Steamworks game that's purchased through Steam. Still, the fact that the installation of any game owned on Steam is gated by the Steam authentication servers constitutes an obvious digital management of rights.)
 
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In what way have you saved that money? And you have at least 2 Steam only games registered there, Magicka and SotS2, now that I look.

By not buying your games for me or to give away like I used to. I'm missing over 20 titles now, I still might get another so I can have 50 icons, but I won't play it(if its a steam version) because steam client is not allowed on any of my computers and never will be. I don't expect you to understand so let's just drop this. Doesn't matter to me if steam is considered DRM or not. You guys do what you want and I will continue to vote with my wallet. Cheers!:D
 
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Just to be clear, you don't need Steam to launch any of the PDS games on Steam, you can install the game and remove Steam if you like, although I'd recommend keeping it around for patches even if you don't run it. You don't need to buy through Steam either, plenty of sites like Amazon digital or Gamersgate also sell steam codes.

Obviously you may still decline, but you shouldn't miss out on our games due to bad information at least.

I'm not trying to give out bad information, sorry.

What I would like to know is whether or not part of Steam's agreement with you guys is that your games MUST use a Steam-specific installer in order for your product to be carried and sold by them?
 
I love Steam, and I own literally hundreds of games on Steam. However, checking that you are legally entitled to a game before installing IS most definitely a form of DRM, by definition. It is performing MANAGEMENT my RIGHTS to install the game by performing DIGITAL verification of that right. If you say that is not DRM, then what would you call something like a GOG game installer where they don't perform that check, less than not DRM?

Your point is moot since you -still- "need" to login to the GoG website to be able to access your games.
If you dont login to your gog account you wont be able to download your game.

I can see what your trying to do, but if you had read previous messages you would see that even with steam "installing" your game, you are not "bound" to keep installing it on steam.
Feel free to copy your installed folder, or zip it and burn it on disc, all you need to do to run the game in the future is drag it off of the disc and voila it works.

Some people are doing this rightnow to be able to play an older version of CK2 for instance due to savegames messing up otherwise after updates.
 
Your point is moot since you -still- "need" to login to the GoG website to be able to access your games.
If you dont login to your gog account you wont be able to download your game.

I can see what your trying to do, but if you had read previous messages you would see that even with steam "installing" your game, you are not "bound" to keep installing it on steam.
Feel free to copy your installed folder, or zip it and burn it on disc, all you need to do to run the game in the future is drag it off of the disc and voila it works.

The point with GOG is not really moot. Needing to log in to download it is irrelevant, because you already created an account and logged in just to buy it. If you also download it at that point before you log out, then you never need to log in again. In that respect it could be compared to buying a boxed game from an online store. Once it's downloaded, as long as you make proper backup copies, the GOG site could cease to exist, and you could still run the installer on another computer in the future and install it properly. The installer makes no online checks before proceeding.

Now, regarding copying the already installed folder of a Steam game and restoring it to a different PC, yes that will surely work with some games. Since someone has already tried it with CK2, it very well may be true for all the Paradox games. However, that does constitute a workaround rather than installing something the normal way. Steam doesn't allow you to install the game normally without a logged in account, so by copying the files manually you are bypassing that obstacle, whereas GOG will allow you to actually run the installer normally without a logged in account.

Besides, I was referring to games on Steam in general, not just Paradox games. It's definitely NOT true that you can use this folder copying method with ALL games on Steam. Many of them have a modified main executable that talks to Steam to check for the presence of a logged in Steam account, or that Steam is in a properly authorized offline mode. Also, even for games that don't do that, for some of them you may need to save various registry keys or files outside the main game folder, such as in the system folder or elsewhere, so it may not be as simple as just copying the main game folder.

However, since it apparently is that simple for the Paradox-developed games, I'll concede that my overall point was partially moot, in the sense that those are the games we're primarily concerned with here. :) It's still a workaround rather than a supported feature, and not one that would work for many of the other games one might buy on Steam.

Edit: The ability to copy the folder apparently doesn't even extend to all of the Paradox-published games from other developers. I just did a test with War of the Roses, and the executable for that game is one of those that has been modified, since it automatically starts up Steam and logs in to the account upon running it.

Further Edit: WotR was a bad example, since that one is already openly professed to be Steamworks. For a good example of what I mean, I'll have refer to a non-Paradox game based on what I have installed at the moment. Rome: Total War is not a Steamworks game, but if you try to run the Steam version without Steam installed and running, you'll just get "Failed to find Steam" instead of a working game. There's no copying of the folder for that one.
 
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checking that you are legally entitled to a game before installing IS most definitely a form of DRM, by definition. It is performing MANAGEMENT my RIGHTS to install the game by performing DIGITAL verification of that right.
What, so only allowing installs by download rather than locally is now DRM to you? Sheesh. No, it's not, even if you mangle the language accordingly. I quoted the actual definition to you, don't you go throwing it back at me as if it supported your position, when it patently does not.


If I bought I new computer and my Internet happened to go out that night, I would be able to install all of my GOG games, which I have already downloaded an archived. However, I wouldn't be able to do that with my Steam games, even though I have also backed up and archived those locally. I need to log into Steam even to restore my local backup copies, so it can digitally verify my right to do so.
You're saying that if you copied, say, your CK2 directories to another machine you couldn't run them without Steam checking online? Because I do not believe that is true. The game is identical whether got from Steam or GG; if what you said was the case even the GG version would need to check with Steam before running. Which it doesn't.

If you say that is not DRM, then what would you call something like a GOG game installer where they don't perform that check, less than not DRM?
Neither are DRM at all, full stop. It's not a matter of degree. IF something "inhibits uses of digital content ..." then it may be DRM, if it does not it is DRM. Getting say CK2 or EU3 from Steam (rather than GG or GoG) does not inhibit your use of that digital content in any way. Does it?
 
What, so only allowing installs by download rather than locally is now DRM to you? Sheesh. No, it's not, even if you mangle the language accordingly. I quoted the actual definition to you, don't you go throwing it back at me as if it supported your position, when it patently does not.

You're saying that if you copied, say, your CK2 directories to another machine you couldn't run them without Steam checking online? Because I do not believe that is true. The game is identical whether got from Steam or GG; if what you said was the case even the GG version would need to check with Steam before running. Which it doesn't.

Andrew,

JoxerNL pointed out to me in his reply that the Paradox-developed games are not using the modified executable with Steam authentication check that many games released on Steam seem to use, so I fully admit I was wrong about those. I was under the false impression that all games on Steam were at least using the authentication check, and I still think that the vast majority of them are doing so. However, I just confirmed myself that the Steam version of EU3 does indeed run without Steam being active. Unlike what seems to be the norm on the Internet these days, I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong. :)

I would still argue that asking people to copy the installed folder if they want to guarantee an install without Steam in the future is a bit of a technical workaround, compared to a normal install process that to which most people are accustomed. Many people wouldn't even know where those folders are located. However, it is comparable in degree to the workaround that you need to perform to free a GamersGate game installer from the downloader program, so I'll call those a draw. GOG still comes out ahead from a usability standpoint with the ability install the game the first time and any time using the same standard unshackled install program that you initially downloaded and saved.

I also wanted to make it clear that people shouldn't expect the method of backing up the installed game folder to work with every game on Steam. It may work with the Paradox-developed games, and therefore probably others, but many games on Steam that aren't officially "Steamworks" games have at least been modified to do the Steam authentication check. Two examples that I currently have installed are Morrowind and Rome: Total War.

Also, I'm not arguing against buying games on Steam in any case. I own more games on Steam than anywhere else, with GOG being second, and GamersGate third, followed by my older collection of boxed games, and what used to be Stardock Impulse coming in last (I haven't bought anything more from Impulse since it was handed over to GameStop). I've embraced digital distribution wholeheartedly on all fronts. :)

Bill
 
You know that will drive Alexspeed, SAS, Gigau, Veld et al. insane looking for those punch cards? :p

Well, one more reason to do it then I guess :)
 
This Punch card might make a decent start:



Don't print it via Steam powered presses though, you'll get a reader revolt against that new-fangled Direct Rendering Method. ;)
 
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