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JRaup

Crusty Grognard
31 Badges
Apr 27, 2003
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I'mnoticing that POPs get assimilated into the national culture and relgion way too fast. example: Playing as the USA, I have 100,000 Polish catholic POPs in Oregon. When I make Oregon a state, in less than 5 years, all those Polish catholics become Yankee Protestants. same for other immingrant POPs. This is too fast really, and shouldn't have changed the POP's religion. Similar effects have been seen with Russia and Britain. As things stand, it's nearly impossible to maintain a cultural or religious minority, as the minority POPs change to the national too easilly. this presents historical problems for Russia, Austria, briatin, and teh US at a minmum.

The period for change over should be around 20 years (1 generation), and shouldn't change the POP's religion. If this is a WAD, the is it possible to mod this in some way to slow down the rate of assimilation?
 
Upvote 0
Are you joking?

Playing with French and having a full citizenship goverment i never got any of my POP's assimilated,NEVER but it is true that for USA they got quickly so is there a way to modify that so POP's are assimilated as fast or as slow a player wants?
 
Well, as I have a lot of experiences with S.A., I can affirm that the MEGA-UBER assimilation also happen down here.

It occurs in one month, they set foot in BRZ, drink a 'caipirinha' marry a 'mulata' and........ puff they are brazilian! :D
 
Hmmm....I find that 100 farmer or labourer immigrant POPs assimilate very quickly. But larger POPs and/or craftsmen / soldier / clerk POPs don't
 
Derek Pullem said:
Hmmm....I find that 100 farmer or labourer immigrant POPs assimilate very quickly. But larger POPs and/or craftsmen / soldier / clerk POPs don't

Playing as the USA, I always see POPS around 1000 being assimulated almost immediately. When the Republicans win an election, ALL immigrant POPS, even ones of 10,000+, assimulate. I have VIP, so it may be that, but I don't think so. In any case, I saw POPS merging too easily before I got VIP. This makes it difficult to get the USA's factories up and running under the current system. However, this seems only to be the case with soldier POPS, until the Republicans win...
 
The ancient mar said:
Playing with French and having a full citizenship goverment i never got any of my POP's assimilated,NEVER but it is true that for USA they got quickly so is there a way to modify that so POP's are assimilated as fast or as slow a player wants?

I see regularly with the USA. Near instantaneous assimilation, even of very large POPs. I've also seen it as Britain, and I've been told it happens with Russia as well. From watching Austria, I've seen it happen as well, as Czechs magically become south Germans (try telling them that!). Though mainly this happens with immigrant POPs, I have seen it with starting POPs in several nations. The USA is just the worst offender in this category.
 
Derek Pullem said:
Hmmm....I find that 100 farmer or labourer immigrant POPs assimilate very quickly. But larger POPs and/or craftsmen / soldier / clerk POPs don't

I've seen it with very large POPs as well. Usually only a month after making the claimed colony a state. Even clergy get changed, but at a far slower rate (it takes years for them). Soldiers get changed over night usually, and the rest are fairly quick to follow. If it took longer than a few months, even for small POPs, I think there would vbe less of an issue. But as it stands, it's far too quick.
 
after some further thought and observation, I think I have found the problem:

The situation only seems to occur with nations that start the game with core national claims either on colonies, or other nations. What happens is that when nation X gets control over those provinces, and makes them states, there is an initial surge of assimiliation, that disregards POP size. Going back to the USA and Oregon, when I make Oregon a state, the vast majority of those Polish Catholic POPs will become Yankee Protestants. Now, as this reduces the size of those POPs, the remiander get quickly assimilated, having been reduced to around 15% of their levels prior to statehood.

Now, this is only part of the problem. The next factor is that national culture POPs (yankee in the USA), grow at too fast a rate. Again using the US as an example, by 1900, in the GC, I generally have 200,000,000+ over all population. This is about 2x where it should be. This population boom does not result from immigration as it should, but is instead the rapid growth of domestic POPs. Because of this growth rate, immigrant POPs are just over whelmed, and get assimilated so fast as to be a non-factor.

third is how immigration/emmigartion is working. The way POPs move about seems to be quirky at best. As most foreign POPs will only move in numbers less than 500, they tend to get assimilated faster than they can arrive to build up the POPs. Also because of this, cultural minorities in places like Austria tend to get nickle and dimed to death (150 Czechs move out of Prague, get assimilated, process repeats until the original POPs are gone). It's also why the Ottomans tend to be too stable in late game situations. All those ethnic minorities are severely reduced by then.

Lastly, is the type of POPs that immigrate. while aristocrats should not tend to emmigarte (except to national colonies), the lack of Clergy immigrants also speeds up the rate of assimilation in foreign lands. Clergy tend not to be assimilated at all that I have seen (same for aristocrats and capitalists), but they provide a factor to the general state of the immigrant POPs (as can be found through the ledger page for POPs). Now, while I have seen clergy move about, it's in very small numbers (under 100), and they seem to like only warm provinces (Hawaii, Carribean, Oceania). You won't find any moving to Alaska, or Tibet, even if the other numbers are very enticeing for immigration.

So what's to be done? 1. Slow the rate of growth for national culture POPs. the over all growth rate is too high for the GC, especially among the great powers, as they tend to have all the growth rate bonus techs and inventions. 2. Increase the size of immigrant POPs. They need to double if not triple in size. 3. Increase the tendency of clergy to immigrate. Again, the size needs to be increased. also, Clergy POPs tend not to grow at all (go figure- :D ), so the numbers of Clergy world wide rarely fluctuate during the game. Some sort of growth potential needs to be there.

Now, is there any way, under the current 1.03 version, that this sort of thing can be done with out changes being needed to the hard code?
 
I'd be careful about jumping to conclusions. Whilst I think most of what you observe is true, I'm not sure about the conclusions.

I think a Full Citizenship govt helps alot in assimilating. Which is probably why most of my immigrants as Scotland (lim citizen govts all) stay as minorities unless they are very small.

The growth rate is in the scenario setup files - so that can be relatively easily modded without changing the base case install. Simply copy the GC or other scenario, change the name in the first line of the scenario to a recognisably different name (GC low growth?) and then change the growth figures for the major powers.

The relative immigration rates of different POPs and the rate of assimilation have to be tweaked by Johan though :(

And he's on a well deserved holiday until around the end of the month
 
JRaup said:
after some further thought and observation, I think I have found the problem:

The situation only seems to occur with nations that start the game with core national claims either on colonies, or other nations. What happens is that when nation X gets control over those provinces, and makes them states, there is an initial surge of assimiliation, that disregards POP size. Going back to the USA and Oregon, when I make Oregon a state, the vast majority of those Polish Catholic POPs will become Yankee Protestants. Now, as this reduces the size of those POPs, the remiander get quickly assimilated, having been reduced to around 15% of their levels prior to statehood.

Now, this is only part of the problem. The next factor is that national culture POPs (yankee in the USA), grow at too fast a rate. Again using the US as an example, by 1900, in the GC, I generally have 200,000,000+ over all population. This is about 2x where it should be. This population boom does not result from immigration as it should, but is instead the rapid growth of domestic POPs. Because of this growth rate, immigrant POPs are just over whelmed, and get assimilated so fast as to be a non-factor.

third is how immigration/emmigartion is working. The way POPs move about seems to be quirky at best. As most foreign POPs will only move in numbers less than 500, they tend to get assimilated faster than they can arrive to build up the POPs. Also because of this, cultural minorities in places like Austria tend to get nickle and dimed to death (150 Czechs move out of Prague, get assimilated, process repeats until the original POPs are gone). It's also why the Ottomans tend to be too stable in late game situations. All those ethnic minorities are severely reduced by then.

Lastly, is the type of POPs that immigrate. while aristocrats should not tend to emmigarte (except to national colonies), the lack of Clergy immigrants also speeds up the rate of assimilation in foreign lands. Clergy tend not to be assimilated at all that I have seen (same for aristocrats and capitalists), but they provide a factor to the general state of the immigrant POPs (as can be found through the ledger page for POPs). Now, while I have seen clergy move about, it's in very small numbers (under 100), and they seem to like only warm provinces (Hawaii, Carribean, Oceania). You won't find any moving to Alaska, or Tibet, even if the other numbers are very enticeing for immigration.

So what's to be done? 1. Slow the rate of growth for national culture POPs. the over all growth rate is too high for the GC, especially among the great powers, as they tend to have all the growth rate bonus techs and inventions. 2. Increase the size of immigrant POPs. They need to double if not triple in size. 3. Increase the tendency of clergy to immigrate. Again, the size needs to be increased. also, Clergy POPs tend not to grow at all (go figure- :D ), so the numbers of Clergy world wide rarely fluctuate during the game. Some sort of growth potential needs to be there.

Now, is there any way, under the current 1.03 version, that this sort of thing can be done with out changes being needed to the hard code?

Since national growth rate can be modded, we should do this in VIP.

I find at least some of the situation with clergy to be reflective of history, more or less. Most of them did choose to go to warm places for missionary work. If they are wanted elsewhere, they have to be specifically created. As was historically sometimes necessary.

It would be interesting to know the historic growth rate of the clergy in various religions and regions.
 
Derek Pullem said:
I'd be careful about jumping to conclusions. Whilst I think most of what you observe is true, I'm not sure about the conclusions.

I think a Full Citizenship govt helps alot in assimilating. Which is probably why most of my immigrants as Scotland (lim citizen govts all) stay as minorities unless they are very small.

The growth rate is in the scenario setup files - so that can be relatively easily modded without changing the base case install. Simply copy the GC or other scenario, change the name in the first line of the scenario to a recognisably different name (GC low growth?) and then change the growth figures for the major powers.

The relative immigration rates of different POPs and the rate of assimilation have to be tweaked by Johan though :(

And he's on a well deserved holiday until around the end of the month


Well, this is mainly hypothesis-synthesis-new hypothesis stuff ATM. So, as I gather more data, I'll reform and revise my theory on the matter. Even so, I'm fairly confident on my last post.

Now, to further my understanding here, is there a list of all the factors that go into how and when POPs get assimilated? There may be a way to work around some of this, but we would need to know what all the factors are. As you said, government policy can be a factor, at least as far as I've seen. But what other factors are there that figure into the equation?

Now, a clarification on my part. the problem resides almost solely with immigrant POPs. Non-national culture POps that are there at the start (like the Dakotas for the USA), don't suffer from this rapid assimilation. If anything, they're more resistant to assimilation. The only time they get affected is if they leave their starting province/state, at which point they become subject to "normal" assimilation. This may be the situation you're seeing as well with Scotland.

Ok, so the POP growth rate can be changed. Is this global only, or can it be specified by nation/state/province? And where in the eug file is the entry? I looked, but didn't find it. Since this can apparnetly be done, it can be handled by the mods, and we won't have to bother Johan with it.

So, if a buzz can be put in Johan's ear about the immigrant POP size, I think that owuld go a long way in alleviating things. It's not a critical thing, but would be helpful long term. and of course, it can wait until he's returned from his vacation.
 
Theodotus1 said:
Since national growth rate can be modded, we should do this in VIP.

I find at least some of the situation with clergy to be reflective of history, more or less. Most of them did choose to go to warm places for missionary work. If they are wanted elsewhere, they have to be specifically created. As was historically sometimes necessary.

It would be interesting to know the historic growth rate of the clergy in various religions and regions.

We'll move the growth rate discussion to VIP then, so we can fudge around with the numbers (once I figure out where they are).

And I do agree somewhat about the Clergy immigrants. Missionary mission to Asia and Africa certainly were the most prominent and visible, but I find it odd that the US only has Protestant clergy, even the former Mexican provinces lack clergy, and immigrants tend not to bring any of their own clergy with them (Catholic, Jewish, or Mayahana). Some sort of increase along those lines is needed IMO.