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Eagle

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Sep 17, 2003
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Two questions

1. What do you consider the best units for defense for ports against enemy invasion? Inf, Gar or Mil with some support brigades or SH tanks ;)?

2. Do the engineer bonuses get spread over all the regiments in its division? So the infantry regiments in 2xinf+1eng would get better bonuses than 3xinf+1eng or do they all get the same bonuses?
 
Two questions

1. What do you consider the best units for defense for ports against enemy invasion? Inf, Gar or Mil with some support brigades or SH tanks ;)?

2. Do the engineer bonuses get spread over all the regiments in its division? So the infantry regiments in 2xinf+1eng would get better bonuses than 3xinf+1eng or do they all get the same bonuses?


1. I use GAR/GAR/AA/AT, with a some tanks or mobile infantry in a central location (for instance, 5 divisions in Paris for France) to rush to the aid of the garrison forces. The idea when defending one's costs is not to completely stop the enemy troops, but to slow them down enough so that when they eventually land, you can surround and crush them.

2. I believe so, it is the same as MTN troops, who's bonuses are averaged across the whole division.
 
1. I use GAR/GAR/AA/AT, with a some tanks or mobile infantry in a central location (for instance, 5 divisions in Paris for France) to rush to the aid of the garrison forces. The idea when defending one's costs is not to completely stop the enemy troops, but to slow them down enough so that when they eventually land, you can surround and crush them.

2. I believe so, it is the same as MTN troops, who's bonuses are averaged across the whole division.

I have similar setup. I read somewhere here that Gar+2x AT would stop everything! I haven't tried it but will try it out in my next game.

I did not know that MTN brigades also averaged over the whole division, is it the same for Marines and special units like WSS??? I thought it was only for engineer brigades.
 
The game will sum up all similiar modifiers and then divide them by the number of brigades to average the value for the whole division.

E.g.:
10% fort attack + 20% fort attack + 0% fort attack = 30% / 3 brigades = 10% fort attack
50% woods defence + 20% woods defence + 0% woods defence + 0% woods defence = 80% / 4 brigades = 20% wood defence
20% fort attack + 20% fort attack - 40% fort attack + 0% fort attack = 0% / 4 brigades = 0% fort attack
 
The game will sum up all similiar modifiers and then divide them by the number of brigades to average the value for the whole division.

E.g.:
10% fort attack + 20% fort attack + 0% fort attack = 30% / 3 brigades = 10% fort attack
50% woods defence + 20% woods defence + 0% woods defence + 0% woods defence = 80% / 4 brigades = 20% wood defence
20% fort attack + 20% fort attack - 40% fort attack + 0% fort attack = 0% / 4 brigades = 0% fort attack

Thanks for the confirmation, I wasn't sure about this and could not see anything in the manual.
 
1. I use GAR/GAR/AA/AT, with a some tanks or mobile infantry in a central location (for instance, 5 divisions in Paris for France) to rush to the aid of the garrison forces. The idea when defending one's costs is not to completely stop the enemy troops, but to slow them down enough so that when they eventually land, you can surround and crush them.

1. why would you put at in garrisions? if they are only meant to stop an invasion, the opponents use of armour will do a good job at that
2. aa is mostly useless. might as well take a couple of interceptors - they will do a better job
3. garrisions in general are not a good choice. they require 6 additional techs (something you can afford as germany - but then again why bother? you can also afford additional supply cost from infantry) and are too slow for partisan hunting
4. if the purpose is not to completly stop the enemy troops, a single infantry brigade is cheaper and will do a decent job at doing so
 
1. why would you put at in garrisions? if they are only meant to stop an invasion, the opponents use of armour will do a good job at that
2. aa is mostly useless. might as well take a couple of interceptors - they will do a better job
3. garrisions in general are not a good choice. they require 6 additional techs (something you can afford as germany - but then again why bother? you can also afford additional supply cost from infantry) and are too slow for partisan hunting
4. if the purpose is not to completly stop the enemy troops, a single infantry brigade is cheaper and will do a decent job at doing so

1. If my opponents are using armor, it helps to negate the penalties that would affect amongst my men, furthermore, if the invasion isn't able to be stopped in it's early stages, the garrison forces will have to stand in line with better equipped and trained regular forces.
2. aa is used because I hardly have aircover in Europe sufficient to hold back the allied bombers (in the case of Germany), it helps to damage enemy aircraft so my ints have an easier time. My air cover usually consists of 8 INT in FRA, 4 in NED, 4 in BEL, 4 in DEN, 8 in GER, which I fly only during the day.
3. I use garrison for muh immersion.
4. Muh immersion.

I don't play HoI to have the most efficient build, I play for muh immersion.
 
re: Garrison Brigs - I've gotten away from using them at all. This is because, if they are beat by an attacking force, they're nearly sure to get over run and destroyed, due to their slow move speed.

Some times I go with militia, sometimes inf. My main concern isn't usually logistics consumption with such forces, but manpower and officer pool. I prefer to put more manpower and officer pool into units that are going to actually fight on purpose, than spend it on a lot of lazy guards. Some times I don't bother at all with port guards of any sort. Let the enemy land then crush him, otherwise, I start getting resentful on spending manpower, officer pool, IC and build queue time and supplies on that armored "response" corps I keep in the AO for that purpose.

IF I do use port guards, I don't bother with teching them up. They're only there as a trip wire, let them get beat and run away. That's fine.
 
I only post garrisons in ports of reasonably high supply throughput, victory locations, and in some cases, the more significant resource or strategic effects provinces. A Level 1 port can't supply a major landing, and it's not worth wasting a unit to defend when a single reaction force can cover multiple ports. If you place a small garrison as a delaying action, you'll still need that reaction force. If you don't, you may need a larger one since the attacker may bring in additional forces before you can respond.

GAR only gets overrun if the enemy reaches the province it's retreating to before your reaction force gets there, and manages to hold it until the GAR arrives. Since a GAR takes pretty close to forever to reach the next province, you've got plenty of time to not only get a reaction force there, but take it back from the opponent if necessary, before your GAR arrives. I've had good results from 2xGAR+AA, or with just 2xGAR if I'm not facing heavy air attack. In the more critical ports, I may either add an INF division as well, or place individual GAR brigades on either side of the port, to avoid being outflanked and surrounded. To me, AT is a waste in port defense, because enemy armor will get a massive amphibious assault penalty if it attacks the port directly, more than offsetting your disadvantage for failing to pierce their armor. I can bring an INF unit with AT to support the defenders long before an enemy armor unit breaks my GAR.

You don't really need 4 techs for GAR. You aren't going to attack with them under almost any circumstances, so raising Toughness is a waste, and AT can be ignored in most cases (unless a human opponent is going armor-heavy). That leaves 2 techs to research, and the lower officer ratio (roughly 1/3 that of INF) should free up enough Leadership from Officer Ratio to use on those techs anyway, if you're producing any quantity of them. They use significantly less supplies, slightly less Manpower, and a lot less of the aforementioned officers, yet defend almost as well as INF. MIL are weaker all around, but cheaper still, and a supporting ART brigade can turn them into a semi-respectable fighting force, but boosts the cost to that of GAR or higher. Possibly their best use is by placing two 2xMIL in a port, since two divisions generally makes the AI think it can't assault successfully, so it won't even try.

If I'm trying to hold a port that's well away from the normal area of operations of my airforce, I'll sometimes add an AA brigade. I had a 2xGAR+AA division hold out against repeated landing attempts and regular bombing attacks for over 2 months (the AI obviously doesn't know how to conduct a serious landing attempt), until I managed to bring in a pair of NAV and INT groups to hit the ships conducting the operation. That eventually led to them heading back to port, mission failed. Adding an AT brigade does nothing for the unit's Soft Attack value, so unless the enemy uses armor, the AT brigade adds NOTHING to the defense besides soaking a few hits.
 
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I only post garrisons in ports of reasonably high supply throughput, victory locations, and in some cases, the more significant resource or strategic effects provinces. A Level 1 port can't supply a major landing, and it's not worth wasting a unit to defend when a single reaction force can cover multiple ports. If you place a small garrison as a delaying action, you'll still need that reaction force. If you don't, you may need a larger one since the attacker may bring in additional forces before you can respond.

GAR only gets overrun if the enemy reaches the province it's retreating to before your reaction force gets there, and manages to hold it until the GAR arrives. Since a GAR takes pretty close to forever to reach the next province, you've got plenty of time to not only get a reaction force there, but take it back from the opponent if necessary, before your GAR arrives. I've had good results from 2xGAR+AA, or with just 2xGAR if I'm not facing heavy air attack. In the more critical ports, I may either add an INF division as well, or place individual GAR brigades on either side of the port, to avoid being outflanked and surrounded. To me, AT is a waste in port defense, because enemy armor will get a massive amphibious assault penalty if it attacks the port directly, more than offsetting your disadvantage for failing to pierce their armor. I can bring an INF unit with AT to support the defenders long before an enemy armor unit breaks my GAR.

You don't really need 4 techs for GAR. You aren't going to attack with them under almost any circumstances, so raising Toughness is a waste, and AT can be ignored in most cases (unless a human opponent is going armor-heavy). That leaves 2 techs to research, and the lower officer ratio (roughly 1/3 that of INF) should free up enough Leadership from Officer Ratio to use on those techs anyway, if you're producing any quantity of them. They use significantly less supplies, slightly less Manpower, and a lot less of the aforementioned officers, yet defend almost as well as INF. MIL are weaker all around, but cheaper still, and a supporting ART brigade can turn them into a semi-respectable fighting force, but boosts the cost to that of GAR or higher. Possibly their best use is by placing two 2xMIL in a port, since two divisions generally makes the AI think it can't assault successfully, so it won't even try.

If I'm trying to hold a port that's well away from the normal area of operations of my airforce, I'll sometimes add an AA brigade. I had a 2xGAR+AA division hold out against repeated landing attempts and regular bombing attacks for over 2 months (the AI obviously doesn't know how to conduct a serious landing attempt), until I managed to bring in a pair of NAV and INT groups to hit the ships conducting the operation. That eventually led to them heading back to port, mission failed. Adding an AT brigade does nothing for the unit's Soft Attack value, so unless the enemy uses armor, the AT brigade adds NOTHING to the defense besides soaking a few hits.

This is one of the things I absolutely love about the HOI series. Nearly every situation that can develop in a game has a rather wide selection of counters, in unit builds, OOB, force deployments, etc and so on.
 
This is one of the things I absolutely love about the HOI series. Nearly every situation that can develop in a game has a rather wide selection of counters, in unit builds, OOB, force deployments, etc and so on.

And yet building INF INF INF ART will allow you to conquer the entire world, with every country.
 
True the 3xinf 1xart setup is pretty good but I'd pin that against the AI not being inttelligent. If they specialized more lily players do in MP you'd find more efficient setups make sense. Since the AI is a dum-dum 3xinf 1xart will almost always work in sufficient numbers
 
Two questions

1. What do you consider the best units for defense for ports against enemy invasion? Inf, Gar or Mil with some support brigades or SH tanks ;)?

2. Do the engineer bonuses get spread over all the regiments in its division? So the infantry regiments in 2xinf+1eng would get better bonuses than 3xinf+1eng or do they all get the same bonuses?

If you keep a few para divisions in reserve all you will ever need is 2xGAR and a single airfield to make every port you own practically invincible.
 
3. garrisions in general are not a good choice. they require 6 additional techs (something you can afford as germany - but then again why bother? you can also afford additional supply cost from infantry) and are too slow for partisan hunting

Odd view on that, garrisons are by far the one unit I wouldn't give up in HOI 3.

They don't require 6 additional techs at all as there is no reason to tech them up past what you need to research infantry. They are not too slow to hunt partisans either. In fact they are the perfect unit for that as you can hand all your partisan duty garrisons over to the AI and unlike every other unit in the game the AI won't send GAR to to the front but keep them where you want them, guarding the rear. Movement speed is not an issue because the AI will SRD them around to deal with uprisings.
 
I did not know that MTN brigades also averaged over the whole division, is it the same for Marines and special units like WSS??? I thought it was only for engineer brigades.
Happens with all brigades.

They don't require 6 additional techs at all as there is no reason to tech them up past what you need to research infantry. They are not too slow to hunt partisans either. In fact they are the perfect unit for that as you can hand all your partisan duty garrisons over to the AI and unlike every other unit in the game the AI won't send GAR to to the front but keep them where you want them, guarding the rear. Movement speed is not an issue because the AI will SRD them around to deal with uprisings.
Garrisons v Partisans?
Well, nothing a proper nation can build will loose against partisans (mostly because partisans spawn with para supply reserve).
MIL is cheaper, faster and beats partisans as well.
For microing, PAR is by far the best anti-partisan unit in the game.
If it's for delaying invasions, GAR will die almost everytime it get's invaded, since it's movement speed is so damn low.
 
Happens with all brigades.


Garrisons v Partisans?
Well, nothing a proper nation can build will loose against partisans (mostly because partisans spawn with para supply reserve).
MIL is cheaper, faster and beats partisans as well.
For microing, PAR is by far the best anti-partisan unit in the game.
If it's for delaying invasions, GAR will die almost everytime it get's invaded, since it's movement speed is so damn low.

The thing is the AI will send MIL to plug any percieved hole it sees in the the frontline whereas you can always count on it using GAR to garrison the rear only. I don't know about you but playing partisan whack-a-mole is not my kind of gaming fun so I happily leave that part of the game to the AI.
 
The thing is the AI will send MIL to plug any percieved hole it sees in the the frontline whereas you can always count on it using GAR to garrison the rear only. I don't know about you but playing partisan whack-a-mole is not my kind of gaming fun so I happily leave that part of the game to the AI.

Why dont you just set up two seperate theatres, one to deal with the frontline and another for partisan hunting?
 
The thing is the AI will send MIL to plug any percieved hole it sees in the the frontline whereas you can always count on it using GAR to garrison the rear only. I don't know about you but playing partisan whack-a-mole is not my kind of gaming fun so I happily leave that part of the game to the AI.
Well, unless I'm playing for realism (happens rarely), my PAR hunt these goddamn partisans - they need microing anyways.
As for traditional anti-partisan duty:
Define your anti-partisan theaters as frontline-less theaters - no frontline, no (imaginary) holes to plug.
 
3. garrisions in general are not a good choice. they require 6 additional techs (something you can afford as germany - but then again why bother? you can also afford additional supply cost from infantry) and are too slow for partisan hunting
Because GAR/MIL use less supplies, officers, MP and are a lot quicker to build. Even with the extra techs in research you're better off then when you use what I call combat troops (INF/MNT/etc). Even if you skip one lvl of research at some point.

But I wouldnt use GAR for partisan duty though, i use MIL (2xMIL=1xMP) against partisans and this works very well. Because they are not such a drain on supplies you can deploy more units and they are the units with the shortest contruction time. You can easily build 4-5 per year at the beginning of the game and about 6-7 at the end of the game. You will never be able to construct INF in that tempo. And besides that, combat units won't be able to stop PTS risings either. They will always occur and the best thing IMO is to use the cheapest units available and use the more expensive combat units where they should be used...at the front.

When PTS pop up somewhere I SRD my MIL in front of their path of movement. By the time they get there, they are attacked by the PTS unit. By the time the attack is finished you're ready to attack them and got a nice experience bonus. OK, sometimes i lose another province before my unit gets there, but it never gets out of hand.

BTW When I play as GER i only use MIL and no GAR. 3xMIL + 2xMIL+1MP to guard ports. The AI will not invade till D-DAY when you deploy 2 units in a port.