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Producer Crusader Kings
Apr 9, 2002
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Gentlemen, there are 11 culture types in the game. This number is final and will not change. Moreover, we have already finalised the art for each of those (and that is a lot of mighty art, but you will see the screenies soon enough =) ). So up to the discussion are the exact flavour names then... And possible ideas on their geo-spread, but be certain that we did our homework there ;).

>>>

(1) West-European (Germanic?)

North France, England, Lowerlands, Western Germany

(2) Central-European (Eastern?)

Eastern Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Hungary

(3) East-European (Russian?)

Russia

(4) South-European (Mediterranean?)

Italy, Southern France

(5) North-European (Scandinavian?)

Sweden, Denmark

(6) Byzantine

Byzantium

(7) Saracen

Northern Africa, Persia, Egypt, Syria

(8) Celtic

Ireland, Islands

(9) Nomadic

Turks, Cumans, Mongols, Pazhinaks

(10) Forest (Forest Pagan?)

Obodrites, Livs, Prussen, Mordva, Chuvash

(11) Samoed (Igloo? North Pagan? Ice Pagan?)

Samoeds

>>>

Suggestions to improve?
 
1. Whew! What a big cultural group. I'd go with Germanic, I guess. Can't think of anything else that'll cover it all.

2. Those Hungarians really mess this up - they really ought to be put in a different cultural group. Other than them - Slavic / Slavonic, or western slavic?

3. As a Ukrainian-Canadian, I don't like Russian. I really don't like it. Maybe Kievan, or Rus'ian. Or Eastern Slavic. Or just combine 2 and 3 into, you guessed it, Slavic.

4. Latin or Romance. Much more than Mediteranean.

5. Scandinavian is a natural.

6. Greek! There's no such thing as Byzantine culture.

7. Saracen? If you have to, but Arabic seems much better (besides Persia). Saracen isn't at all what those people would call themselves, which is why I'm against it.

8. Celtic

9. Turkic? Nomadic, I suppose. The Hungarians would be much better in this group, or in number 10.

10. Tough - I've never hear of any of these groups. 30 seconds of research said that the Obodrites were slavs, and should be put in a different cultural group. I can't find anything on the Livs, but the Livonians seem similar to the Estonians / Finns. Mordva? I'd never heard of them, but they seem to be in modern Estonia. Chuvash came out as being a Turkic language. Maybe just call it all Baltic, and switch the Chuvash to Turkic, or put them all in as Finnic.

11. Again, I've never heard of this one. I'm guessing that in English it's Samoyed. Would Lapp work instead?

To summarize, my top choices would be:

Germanic
Slavic
Latin/Romance
Scandinavian
Greek
Arabic
Celtic
Turkic
Baltic/Finnic
Whatever for the last group.

There you go - and I even reduced it to 10 groups! Seriously though, considering some of the other diverse groups being lumped together, there's no use distinguishing between West and East Slavs. If you can go back to 11, you could put in Frankish.
 
Originally posted by sergei
Gentlemen, there are 11 culture types in the game. This number is final and will not change. Moreover, we have already finalised the art for each of those (and that is a lot of mighty art, but you will see the screenies soon enough =) ). So up to the discussion are the exact flavour names then... And possible ideas on their geo-spread, but be certain that we did our homework there ;).
Click to expand...

I can live with 11 cultures, but I really think there needs to be some shuffling between some of your groups. Your Central-European has 3 very different cultures in it (Germanic, Slavic, Hungarian).
 
My input:

1. Definetly not "Germanic" which denotes something much wider. Very difficult to name this area since it includes both Germanic speaking and Latinspeaking peoples. I´m at a loss here. Perhaps "Gothic" since this is the area where Gothic architecture and art was born, but this would anachronistic in 1066.

2. "Western Slavic" I´d say. The Magyars might object though but Central European is just to generic.

3. "Russian" would do.

4. This includes non-moslem Iberia as well? In that case I´d call it "Latin" or perhaps "Romanesque".

5. "Scandinavian" - suits well. I would not categorize either the Finns or Saami as Scandinavian though - they belong in cultures 10 or 11.

6. "Romanioi" would be better than the modern concept Byzantine.

7. Saracen - too wide. Either go for "Arabic", "Persian", "Berber" and "Turkic" or don´t do cultures for the moslems at all. "Saracen" will do otherwise but it´s a massively eurocentric term.

8. Celtic - that´d do fine I think. Would Cornwall still be Celtic in 1066.

9. Nomadic - a very wide term of course. Perhaps call them "Steppe nomadic" to differnetiate them from 10 and 11 who also encomapss many nomadic peoples. Would Berbers and Bedouin belong to this group or group 7?

10. "Forest pagan" - why not? It´s a mighty wide grouping though. I´d put the Finns and Karelians here as well as the people you mentioned. In 1066 you could argue that Swedes were Forest Pagans as well;)

11. Samoed - too specific a name when compared to the other names of cultures. What about "Arctic pagan" or "Circumpolar pagans". I´d put the Saami and Inuit in this group.

EDIT: Many of these grouping are so wide that the flavour names discussed in the other culture threads aren´t applicable. Too bad.

Cheers,
Vandelay
 
Good morning, nice to wake up to another revelation about Crusader Kings :)

Since the number of cultures is finalized (along with the artwork, which is great!) not much to say about that. I would have favored much more than 11 cultures (I did prefer flavor-tags in the previous thread after all), but also realize that it wouldn't be realistic given the gameplay and graphics limitations at hand.

The naming process will be quite tricky...and I wish you the best of luck trying to satisfy as many people as possible---given that we have a limited number of cultures, I would avoid ethnic names as much as possible. Linguistic lines might be the best way to go along here, IMHO (ie. Germanic, Slav, Altaic...) The reasoning here is to minimize resent and tension. Having a whole culture group such as Russian and German (as opposed to Germanic) might upset some people and since there are 11 tags we can use, why not have them all general / linguistic rather than having some specific / ethnic ...
 
Does this include the possibility of province culture changing overtime? England in 1066 is much less "Western European" than in 1200...in fact, the Anglosaxon society is closer to group 5 than group 1! And the very definite cultural difference between north and south france is much less marked in 1066 than in 1260.

Names are fine, except 1. Germanic is, as noted, too wide. Frankish would suit well territorialy speaking, England excepted.

I suppose group 5 also includes Norway, Iceland and the Isles.

EF
 
Originally posted by BarristerBoy
7. Saracen? If you have to, but Arabic seems much better (besides Persia). Saracen isn't at all what those people would call themselves, which is why I'm against it.

9. Turkic? Nomadic, I suppose. The Hungarians would be much better in this group, or in number 10.
Click to expand...

7. Perhaps another name can be found, other than Saracen, to describe sedentary Muslim peoples of the Middle East (and Iberia) ? Giving Persian provinces "Arabic" culture would be the equivilant of giving Italian culture to a Polish province...

9. As much as I'd like to see a Turkic culture in the game, some of the people Sergei mentioned in his post (most importantly, Mongols) are not Turkic. So I'd go ahead and call them Altaic, a handy term that encompasses anything from Chuvash to Oguz and Peceneg to Mongols.
 
I freely admit that Persians do not in the least fit in the same cultural group as Arabs. The only reason I even suggested it was that based on my limited knowledge of the CK map most of Persia wouldn't be included. If, in the end, it came down to just a handful of provinces in one corner of the map having a bad culture I suppose I could live with it.

Altaic as opposed to Turkic? I suppose that could work. I had thought that Turkic as a linguistic / ethnic group was large enough to include the Mongols, but if it isn't I'll live with Altaic.

A few other comments:

I don't entirely understand the objections to Germanic. Yes, it's a very broad group, but so is, say, slavic.

Whatever you do though, don't use Russian as the culture for eastern Europe!

Romanioi? I thought that was a political term, not cultural. Why not just use Greek? Are there any cultural groups that would be left out?

I keep coming back to thinking that group 2 can be split up between groups 1, 3 and 9...

And by the way, where are the Basque and the Albanians going to fit in? And there are probably a few other minority groups I'm forgetting that won't fall under any of these categories...
 
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Re: what was in the beginning of the game, since culture in provinces changes we are devising a preset "change in progress" for the year of 1066. That is, not all provinces have stable cultures of their own, but some @ 1066 are going through the changes due to recent conquests/assimilation.

Re: number of cultures, please mind that we have 11 and the number can't be changed! :) The subject of discussion is (a) names (b) regions covered.
 
Do the cultures have to be contiguous? The Magyars, in particular - can they be a part of an Altaic / Ugric group, even though other members of the group are in entirely different regions?
 
Originally posted by BarristerBoy
1. I freely admit that Persians do not in the least fit in the same cultural group as Arabs. The only reason I even suggested it was that based on my limited knowledge of the CK map most of Persia wouldn't be included. If, in the end, it came down to just a handful of provinces in one corner of the map having a bad culture I suppose I could live with it.

2. Altaic as opposed to Turkic? I suppose that could work. I had thought that Turkic as a linguistic / ethnic group was large enough to include the Mongols, but if it isn't I'll live with Altaic.

3. I don't entirely understand the objections to Germanic. Yes, it's a very broad group, but so is, say, slavic.

4. Romanioi? I thought that was a political term, not cultural. Why not just use Greek? Are there any cultural groups that would be left out?
Click to expand...

1. Agreed---we really need to see the map of Europe before we can settle several of these issues. If the entire Persia is included; man that'll be a mess. Arab and Persian subjects, Turkic overlords...what about the Armenians? hrm...

2. The relation between Mongol and Turkic is quite similar to Slav and Germanic: Same language family (Altaic and Indo-European respectively), both groups lived in areas bordering eachothers' territory, frequently in conflict, shifting ethnic lines as a result of mass migrations.

3. Same here, actually Germanic makes alot more sense than Frankish given the geopgraphical limits mentioned by Sergei. Plus this is supposed to be -general- afterall, 11 cultures is barely enough to be general when you're covering all of Europe and the MidEast.

4. Greek / Hellene is the most appropiate to use here imho. What about Armenians (again!) , Georgians, Syriacs under Byzantine rule?

Beginning to think that culture might be the wrong word to use here...since so many will have to be left out.
 
AFAIK, Hungarians already settled in 1066 and abandoned their nomadic/raiding ways of life.


But i have another qestion. Why Iberia isn't listed at all? Will it be mediterraen in Christian possesions and Saracen in Islamic?
 
My opinions:
1. "Germanic" sounds fine, but wouldn't it cover "Scandinavian"?
2. "West slavic" would sound better, in my opinion.
3. "East slavic" would sound better than "Russian", in my opinion.
4. "Latin" would probably be good for the mediterraneans.
5. "Nordic" or "Scandinavian" (preferably "Nordic") for us northlings.
6. "Greek" is way better than "Byzantine".
7. Wouldn't "Arab(ian)" sound better? Dunno on this one.
8. "Celtic" forever!
9. "Altai(c)" could be a good name as well.
10. I'm not sure about this one... the name "Vend" keeps popping up in my head, but it could very well be the wrong region...
11. "Samic" could probably sound good.

However, I think it would be good if the Slavic cultures could be merged and then have a separate Frankish culture added.

If "Germanic" covers north France, the lowlands and England, why not also cover Scandinavia? I think it'd be better to have England "Nordic" instead, and most of France as "Frankish".
 
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Re: Re: Pub Poll: Culture Names (+)

Originally posted by DarthMaur
AFAIK, Hungarians already settled in 1066 and abandoned their nomadic/raiding ways of life.


But i have another qestion. Why Iberia isn't listed at all? Will it be mediterraen in Christian possesions and Saracen in Islamic?
Click to expand...

Most likely... at least with the current list.
 
Romanioi? I thought that was a political term, not cultural. Why not just use Greek? Are there any cultural groups that would be left out?
Click to expand...

Syriacs, armenians, georgians, albanians etc, were all under the East Roman Aegis (IIRC) and would have to fit in in that group I guess - that´s why Romanioi might be better than Hellene or Greek which is too narrow.

Germanic encompasses Scandinavian that´s why I think it´s too wide. And calling the langue d´oc speaking northern French Germanic seems a lttle bit too much for me. Germanic would work better if you put the Northern French in the Latin/ Romanesque group which would leave the Dutch, Frisians, Ango-Saxons and Germans in the "Germanic" group which would be OK.

East Slavic is more neutral than Russian which might save us some grief on the discussion forum. Were Ukrainians and Russian really distinct in 1066? - I would claim that e.g. Swedes and Norwegians were not.

The system proposed will definetly not work if cultural areas must be contigous so I´m guessing territorial contiguity is not a prerequisite.

Saracen is indeed way too wide but if we have only 11 cultures it has to be accepted.

Cheers,
Vandelay
 
This is all pretty basic. Only two that I feel strongly about needing to be changed.

As has already been pointed out "Latin" is the definite correct term to be used. Also, "Byzantine" or "Romanoi" is rediculous. Use "Greek" since that is what it was. Don't give in to the insidious Byzantine propaganda! :D
 
Originally posted by Onslaught
My opinions:
5. "Nordic" or "Scandinavian" (preferably "Nordic") for us northlings.
10. I'm not sure about this one... the name "Vend" keeps popping up in my head, but it could very well be the wrong region...
Click to expand...
5. Norse is better than Nordic IMO
10. Of the peoples listed in sergei's post only the first (the Obotrites) were "Vends". That's a too narrow name... Forest pagans is probably the best name...

Originally posted by Vandelay
Germanic encompasses Scandinavian that´s why I think it´s too wide. And calling the langue d´oc speaking northern French Germanic seems a lttle bit too much for me.
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There were no langue d´oc in northern France. The langue d'oc was specific for the regions in southern France - between northern Italy and Catalonian/Aragonese lands.


Originally posted by Nikolai II
What culture covers Finland/Suomi?

Is it some sort of forest pagan?
Click to expand...
Yes. Must be.
 
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There were no langue d´oc in northern France. The langue d'oc was specific for the regions in southern France - between northern Italy and Catalonian/Aragonese lands.
Click to expand...

Sorry, must be langue d´oil then - point is the Franks wre long since latinized/ romanesqu speaking by 1066.

/Vandelay
 
I guess that if the Pagans, the Saracens and the Mongols and so on are all unplayable I see no reason why 10 and 11 are separate groups.
Much better to split up the Saracens and Nomadic people. You could split the Nomadic people into Turkic and Tartar (what the Mongols were known as AFAIK). Saracens is tricky because you'd need to split them into many groups...
 
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