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Hey, everyone try to be on time tonight. It would be nice if we started promptly. Usually we start atleast 30-40 mins late. Also, I can play 4 hours max, from 5:00 pm EST to 9:00 pm est. Troy, try to get in touch with Nightstream and make sure he comes on time.

Should be a great session everyone. Last session was almost 6 hours due to many rehosts and starting 40 mins late, hopefully this session will be better.
 
Hey I just remembered something Uls. You were at -3 stability when you annexed Venice. Then after taking Hungary, your stability went up to +3? I am playing a single player as Ottoman, and when I took Hungary my stability went up only 3. Now, was that the double event effect or what?
 
nobodyreal said:
Add these two things :
Cancel out one of the events for Sweden. Sweden got a double event that raised revolt risk +10. You will have to ask Grabah for the event code on this.
....
this is exactly why im against edits.
now everyone will start asking for more.
game is not perfect and there is lot's of things that will happen due to imperfection and glitches, we can't correct all of them, for instance that revolt risk event, if we played for a bit longer it would affect my involment in the war and editing it after session wouldn't correct this.
so i say we all take one for the team and forget about edits (unless it's something very important and crucial) and treat all those 'minor' misfired events as randomness of the game (sort of like random events)
 
grabah said:
this is exactly why im against edits.
now everyone will start asking for more.
game is not perfect and there is lot's of things that will happen due to imperfection and glitches, we can't correct all of them, for instance that revolt risk event, if we played for a bit longer it would affect my involment in the war and editing it after session wouldn't correct this.
so i say we all take one for the team and forget about edits (unless it's something very important and crucial) and treat all those 'minor' misfired events as randomness of the game (sort of like random events)

I agree. It could get way out of hand.
 
nobodyreal said:
For Uls, that's an important event and it's good he realized that, but I'm curious as to the reason WHY that event was skipped.

what do you mean?
 
nobodyreal said:
Hey I just remembered something Uls. You were at -3 stability when you annexed Venice. Then after taking Hungary, your stability went up to +3? I am playing a single player as Ottoman, and when I took Hungary my stability went up only 3. Now, was that the double event effect or what?

Hungary's annexation event only comes when Hungary exists, sir.

I got one of many Suleyman's great events appart of the hungarian event, and I've never reached to +3 I'm afraid. just a +2.
 
National_Cause said:
I agree. It could get way out of hand.

Maybe you both fails in comparing events. There're vital events and minor ones. a temporal revoltic risk event can't be compared to the Oe naval reform. You'll never see me here asking for edits about minor events, it's just troublemaker's behavior.

About not using host save, I already told you the consequencies. I know you're newcomers, but ignoring impartial observations and arguments is quite stubborn behavior.
 
Ulschmidt said:
Maybe you both fails in comparing events. There're vital events and minor ones. a temporal revoltic risk event can't be compared to the Oe naval reform. You'll never see me here asking for edits about minor events, it's just troublemaker's behavior.

About not using host save, I already told you the consequencies. I know you're newcomers, but ignoring impartial observations and arguments is quite stubborn behavior.

Yeah, I agree that is a vital event for OE. But I do think that my DP settings is also pretty vital. I'm not saying that to cause trouble, either. In fact, changing DP settings is very easy in the edit and I hope it won't be too much of a hassle.
 
nobodyreal said:
Yeah, I agree that is a vital event for OE. But I do think that my DP settings is also pretty vital. I'm not saying that to cause trouble, either. In fact, changing DP settings is very easy in the edit and I hope it won't be too much of a hassle.

Also, it's convenient one collects evidence... for example, I realised OE had no shipyard and I remembered Oe always had one around 1520 in many of my previous games. I checked events and I found the problem, the event should have happened in 1515. why this happened? I don't have a cristal ball, sir, do you?

I accept edition on Austria. However If i discovered you're just speculating, I'd have to complain.

Btw, guys, you'd better not cheat, if I detected any "strange" changement, proposal or behavior I'd have to ask for your resignation from the campaign. obviously. and I'd not play with you again, it's a matter of principles.
 
nobodyreal said:
just wondering, if the host edits, will there still be missed events etc? Or does this only come when someone else edits and we use their save?

your first thought. host save avoids event problems under any circunstances, with or without post-edition.
 
Ulschmidt said:
Maybe you both fails in comparing events. There're vital events and minor ones. a temporal revoltic risk event can't be compared to the Oe naval reform. You'll never see me here asking for edits about minor events, it's just troublemaker's behavior.

About not using host save, I already told you the consequencies. I know you're newcomers, but ignoring impartial observations and arguments is quite stubborn behavior.

come on man.
missing that event is just a small speed bump for mighty oe ;)

my point was that events not firing and we continuing to play already altered the game via butterfly effect.
perhaps if that event fired you would choose to build that shipyard and than wouldn't have gold to finance poland whitch would lead to poland accepting peace early and then latter not accepting any deal with russia witch would cause russia to enter war vs poland alone and perhaps loosing badly and becoming polish vassal witch would led to...

let's imagine suleyman forgot to build shipyard :)
event costs 300ducats shipyard cost 1000 it's 700 ducats you lost.
treat it as difficulty setting penalty, for a newbie game.

PS and i couldnt agree more on a host saves (even if it means we are going to loose couple of years in the game we must allways use host save!!!
last session i wasn't so vocal about it because in those few years of difference between host and player save, i lost whole army and a leader in the hell of northern germany, so it would look as if i was routing for my self :eek:o )

EDIT and just for the record, so you guys wouldn't think it was only you who suffered, after my double events i got random event where i could choose between another +10 revolt risk or -2 base tax in a smalland, i had to pick B option not to fall apart, and now from a solid province i got crapy one for the rest of the game :(
 
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grabah said:
come on man.
missing that event is just a small speed bump for mighty oe ;)

my point was that events not firing and we continuing to play already altered the game via butterfly effect.
perhaps if that event fired you would choose to build that shipyard and than wouldn't have gold to finance poland whitch would lead to poland accepting peace early and then latter not accepting any deal with russia witch would cause russia to enter war vs poland alone and perhaps loosing badly and becoming polish vassal witch would led to...

let's imagine suleyman forgot to build shipyard :)
event costs 300ducats shipyard cost 1000 it's 700 ducats you lost.
treat it as difficulty setting penalty, for a newbie game.

You don't have to be an economist to understand one would have chosen option a or b of the event (c is stupid, for completely monetarian illusionists).

However my point is that I don't think this would have changed Austro-Polish war at all, the event as I said would have fired in 1515. And I won't lose my time speculating what would have happened if Poland were vassalized, do you have a cristal ball too?

2nd, Spain doesn't seem that newbie, and the shipyard's event was thought for balance and historical purposes towards Spain-Oe natural enmity (I don't mind history, but I understand Oe's shipyard is completely necessary to avoid Spanish powergamming.)

3rd, you're a bad economist. I give up 2000 of naval technology already. And you obviously don't contemplate costs of not having the shipyard, that is, the benefits it gives if it was there. For OE, it's a greal deal. I don't think in objective prices when deciding what to do with my money, i think in present and future benefits. One of them is to avoid being ganged and lose easily by making ships rapidly, how do you measure this in economic units? Grabah. Keep figuring out costs and benefits. Because the penalty you're giving me is quite high, even for an expert that of course I'm not, I'm maybe a good player, but this "tax" you propose is comparable to what we should impose to Bill Gates in real life.
 
grabah said:
EDIT and just for the record, so you guys wouldn't think it was only you who suffered, after my double events i got random event where i could choose between another +10 revolt risk or -2 base tax in a smalland, i had to pick B option not to fall apart, and now from a solid province i got crapy one for the rest of the game :(

I bet you already have 10 + WE, that is, around 16. plus -2 base tax. We can edit 2 base tax if you want, there's no problem. But having +10 RR is what you chose when the first twin event appeared, so you'll have to live with it, don't you agree?

Well, I'd ask for +2 base tax too, but I'd give the editor a lot of time to do this. Now comparing 2 base tax with the Oe naval reform is just hilarious...

Of course, let's take advantage of my vital edit request in order to do the minor ones. I said we give Fnuco 150 duccats for this service too. Sounds like a lot of work to do, let's give him an incentive.
 
Ulschmidt said:
I bet you already have 10 + WE, that is, around 16. plus -2 base tax. We can edit 2 base tax if you want, there's no problem. But having +10 RR is what you chose when the first twin event appeared, so you'll have to live with it, don't you agree?

Well, I'd ask for +2 base tax too, but I'd give the editor a lot of time to do this. Now comparing 2 base tax with the Oe naval reform is just hilarious...

Of course, let's take advantage of my vital edit request in order to do the minor ones. I said we give Fnuco 150 duccats for this service too. Sounds like a lot of work to do, let's give him an incentive.

i must strongly disagre.
if you so carefully calculated lost for your country i could do the same for mine. (and my we is 2 or 3 btw). i would never choose option B if my rr was normal.
and no i don't have crystal ball, neither do you, so we can't tell what would happened if you got your event. says who you had ducats to pay for it?
perhaps your treasury was empty so you would have to take loan, cost of two loans should be deducted from your techs. also you would be saving up to pay for your loans witch would couse your inflation go up a bit, we must edit this in too. also you used money you would normaly spend on that event to build army to invade hungary, smaller army would couse higher losess this should be edited too, austria would be more succesfull agains smaller army we should also edit this. if you used saved money to put few bailiffs we also must deduct gains from those bailiffs, take away traders you put in place, and their income.

i want all rebellions that where caused by higher rr to be edited out,
also i lost tech investment from rebel occupied provinces this should be edited in, together wit lost ducats in my treasury from census taxes, also let's not forget population growth lost due to rebels looting (very important for sweden :eek:o ).
also my army was fighting rebels instead of fighting poles, so i demand my lost men to be returned, also some higher damage done to polish army. not to even mention looting profit i lost because i wasn't looting polish provinces and i could only if i wasn't fighting rebels. and i can go on forever.

EDIT look i dont have anything against you or oe, i just fear inflation of edits.
ok lost shipyard is big, but if you keep insisting on it then nobodyreal will demand his dp clicks. france will demand what they find fair, i will be crying that -2 tax is game breaking and inhuman, and so on.
if we could establish no edits rule everything will be much more simplier, like this we will have to establish first witch edits/events are major witch are minor and what is a fair compensation.
and every player will pull on his side.
once we start with edits i assure you we will have edit demands before every sesson.
 
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I'm with Uls in suggesting we use the host's save at all times. Uls, i'm not sure why you are so grouchy today, but seriously calm down. Don't worry about the DP clicks I suppose, but please man, this should be a fun game, and I assure you that I have never considered cheating. But hey, I agree about the DP clicks, just leave them, they can be changed manually. but for Future reference, let's always use the host save! It will avoid many problems.

Also, money is running very short guys. My internet bill is getting pretty high, there is a good possibility that my internet will be off as of Friday. :(
 
That is exactly what I meant about "troublemaker behavior" = speculator. Now let's compare Musollini with Mandela for our own convenience too...

I asked my edit which is a big deal, and everybody jumps for edition. Don't you think it's more a problem of matureness than edition costs?

Listen, I'm not against Sweden either, and I always try to be as objective as I can. But my point is: no-one's guilty of what happened when rehosting with the wrong saved, however we should be consistent in what we're demanding. I wouldn't mind waiting for my 2 base tax edit, but denying others' edits (because I'm impatient or I don't want others to get what they legally deserve) without working out real costs is another story.

Fnuco, you can start editing those double edits out, don't start close to session time, this conversation reached to an end as fas as I'm concerned.


PD: the cost of a loan usually moves around 100 in 5 years (10% interest, but usually 6% that would mean 60 per 5 years ). If i had to take 3 loans to have a shipyard that would mean a cost of 900, still less than 1000. And I still value that shipyard in more than 1000 because of the benefits that gives me, for example, less risk at sea. easy! a shipyard in my capital make me able to rise 40 sails (now I can rise 30 if i used all my harvours!) that's a 233% more! If I can rise more sails, I have more chances to defend myself at sea, plus i don't have to merge constantly or risk minor fleets at sea in order to gather all of them in a place... oh man, i can figure out a lot of things, a lot of benefits, it's a pity you can see this...

AND I could rise around 16k inf with 200 (if I had 0 inflation) or 9k cavalry. Are you really meaning this would have let me win against Austria? and in 1515?

can you still say this last alternative was more beneficial than the other one?... I doubt it.

EDIT: oh I forgot, let's say a war costs me 4000. and let's say having a shipyard make risk to sink in 5%. now work out 4000*0.05 equals 200. this is what I save by having a shipyard (per war). Usually, if my enemy have 1 shipyard and i don't have anyone, building a shipyard would sink risk considerably! as it's a relative measurement, the marginal effect when my enemy and I have a lot of shipyards is small compared to the situation I described before. Simply, that 233% of more sails when rising when having a single shipyard gives us a clear clue. when having more, that percentage would be less than 233% for sure, consequently, the "quantity" of risk that sinks is, of course, less.
 
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nobodyreal said:
I'm with Uls in suggesting we use the host's save at all times. Uls, i'm not sure why you are so grouchy today, but seriously calm down. Don't worry about the DP clicks I suppose, but please man, this should be a fun game, and I assure you that I have never considered cheating. But hey, I agree about the DP clicks, just leave them, they can be changed manually. but for Future reference, let's always use the host save! It will avoid many problems.

Also, money is running very short guys. My internet bill is getting pretty high, there is a good possibility that my internet will be off as of Friday. :(

It was a general warning. I'm not accusing you, Nob. Just making some incentives to stop that potential behavior.

I want to give you your 4 DPs moves!. But I want you to take pictures or to make saves in order to compare and agree with you 100%, instead of believing in you in a 99% without objective data.

pay your bills! :eek:
 
if fnuco edits you a shipyard he will also deduct 300 ducats,
judging by the stats that means one loan (and if you calculated correctly one loan is extra 100ducats cost)
couldn't you just save up those 600ducats and build it yourself :rolleyes:
if nothing just to spare yourself of this whole debate...

and we still don't know why that event didn't fire, perhaps it wasn't bug, but game working as intended.
and btw i don't want any edits for myself, i was just trying to show what will happen once we start editing.

ahh i guess it's GM's call at the end.
and nob stop downloading all that porn and your bill wont be so high :p