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Well, in our capitalist society, the second ones can't live without the first!:(
 
Originally posted by Odin1970
Good example, over the months we have gone back and forth on more then one subject, often I come to agree with your position, you make solid arguments. However, for me, a buggy release isnt acceptable as a customer after HOI. I dont care what the circumstances are that need to occur to prevent a buggy release, I just dont want to go through the BS of waiting for a patch to clear up a game breaking bug (the loss of resources and IC when loosing a capital in HOI comes to mind).

I dont expect perfection, but I have come to rely on the professional commitment that Paradox exhibits towards thier games. As an evaluator and a consumer bugs upon release is an area that can be improved on. The bar is set high here, Paradox games are supported, the community engaged for diolque and solicited for participation in the correction of bugs. So I have come to expect more, maybe thats not a good thing but because the information of the development process has been sparse I have no tanigable evidence to suggest that lessons learned from HOI, and the initial release and feedback wont be corrected with CK.

so I stand firm.

No bugs :mad:
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I agree. I can recall that SF rushed out EU2 for North American release. EU2 v 1.00 was absolutely unplayable! Hopefully, the same does not occur in this case for CK.
 
Let's face it, like most things in the world Paradox has its pros and its cons.

Pros: Paradox is a great ideas company. The ideas for its games are really top notch. They fill a niche that no other company fills. No other company has made an historical simulation game approaching EU-EU2. There are other games that could be considered in the same genre, like Civ or Imp, but they really pale in comparison. Another pro is how well they support games once they are already out. They are constantly releasing new patches that not only fix bugs but add new features. Unfortunately, this pro is just about absolutely necessary given their cons.

Cons: Their ideas are superb, but it's in the coding that they are really below-average; sometimes I would even say downright amateurish. For a start, their memory management is flatout horrible. Their games are basically static and should not require very much computer power at all. Yet they require more RAM and a more powerful internet connection (in the case of MP) than games made by more professional companies that are much more dynamic and graphically impressive. Paradox is the king--the absolute king--of CTDs. I have never purchased any game--with the sole exception of Imperialism I before it was patched--that was as unstable as the two Paradox games I own (EU1 and EU2). Finally after like the 25th patch (counting betas), EU2 seems to run fairly smoothly. But it really shouldn't take all that, and EU2 still crashes much more than a game like WC3, which crashes never.

So that is the honest assessment of someone who is not so rabidly loyal to Paradox that I feel the need to kiss their butt. They have excellent ideas for their games and do stick with them and support them, but they could really use hiring a few good professional programmers
 
Originally posted by Edge

amateurish. For a start, their memory management is flatout horrible. Their games are basically static and should not require very much computer power at all. Yet they require more RAM and a more powerful internet connection (in the case of MP) than games made by more professional companies that are much more dynamic and graphically impressive. Paradox is the king--the
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Well, let's see. About 500 provinces, each one has data for name (say string 32 bytes or so), population(integer or long so either 4 or 8 bytes), nationalism (byte), tax base (byte), ownership (probably pointer, so say 4 bytes), manpower (float, so 4 bytes)), available manpower (4 bytes), supply limit (i guess 4 bytes) , event effects, improvements. So you have 60 bytes at least per province. so 3000 bytes for province data alone.

NOw the states. each state has a name (say 32 byte) list of provinces (probably pointer, so 4 bytes each - say 4 on avg, so on avg 16 bytes) and relationships with others (float per state) - let's say there is 100 states, so relationships 400 bytes. Add list of armies, each with morale, name, leader, infantry, artillery, cavalry - about 100 bytes per army. Add ruler with 3 skills, name, begin and end - about 50 bytes at least. Add inflation, tech levels (six?) and investition in tech level so say 34 bytes. Add list of known provinces, say its char[500] so 500 bytes or province * and avg 400 bytes. Reputation 4 bytes should be enough. 1136 in total?

So states should occupy about 113600 bytes.

So, the data alone should occupy at least 116200 bytes, that is about 116kb.

I guess the event engine really takes the most memory. You have to keep events in the memory, keep lists for effective searching them and evaluating, each event had description, effects, condition and they are lot's of them - and for speed they all are in memory. Say 1000 events with 1kb each (desc takes most of the place, i say 1000 chars is conservative estimation) and you get 1mb at least.

Add graphics and it still wouldn't say why it get so much memory.


Any other ideas ? Did I forgot about something?
 
Originally posted by szopen76
Well, let's see. About 500 provinces, each one has data for name (say string 32 bytes or so), population(integer or long so either 4 or 8 bytes), nationalism (byte), tax base (byte), ownership (probably pointer, so say 4 bytes), manpower (float, so 4 bytes)), available manpower (4 bytes), supply limit (i guess 4 bytes) , event effects, improvements. So you have 60 bytes at least per province. so 3000 bytes for province data alone.

NOw the states. each state has a name (say 32 byte) list of provinces (probably pointer, so 4 bytes each - say 4 on avg, so on avg 16 bytes) and relationships with others (float per state) - let's say there is 100 states, so relationships 400 bytes. Add list of armies, each with morale, name, leader, infantry, artillery, cavalry - about 100 bytes per army. Add ruler with 3 skills, name, begin and end - about 50 bytes at least. Add inflation, tech levels (six?) and investition in tech level so say 34 bytes. Add list of known provinces, say its char[500] so 500 bytes or province * and avg 400 bytes. Reputation 4 bytes should be enough. 1136 in total?

So states should occupy about 113600 bytes.

So, the data alone should occupy at least 116200 bytes, that is about 116kb.

I guess the event engine really takes the most memory. You have to keep events in the memory, keep lists for effective searching them and evaluating, each event had description, effects, condition and they are lot's of them - and for speed they all are in memory. Say 1000 events with 1kb each (desc takes most of the place, i say 1000 chars is conservative estimation) and you get 1mb at least.

Add graphics and it still wouldn't say why it get so much memory.


Any other ideas ? Did I forgot about something?
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Thats not really entirely true..
The province and country datasizes is a tad bit bigger, (by a factor of 10), but that alone is irrelevant.
What takes data and processing powers is the countryXcountry information, and the countryXprovince information.
[200 countries, 1600 provinces] 1600x200 takes a bit of memory.

3dgames usually have alot less information to handle, and the high demands there is purely for the artwork. (I've coded large 3d games as well.)
 
Originally posted by Edge
but it's in the coding that they are really below-average; sometimes I would even say downright amateurish. For a start, their memory management is flatout horrible. Their games are basically static and should not require very much computer power at all. Yet they require more RAM and a more powerful internet connection (in the case of MP) than games made by more professional companies that are much more dynamic and graphically impressive.
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Isn't it more due to the enormous map than bad coding?
 
Originally posted by SirGrotius
you can find the "new" release date here:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/crusaderkings/index.html

that's interesting that they got november 15th, i wonder who's the leak?

also, pc gamer magazine has the release date set for Q4 2003, but that's pretty obvious (though it did have 09/05/03 before, and i, in my hastiness, put five dollars down on the game at a local gamespot!).
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hmm reading further from that link you get info about Paradox:

http://www.gamespot.com/company/paradoxentertainment.html

Whats Backyard Wrestling or X-men...? Think they have a little mess over there ;)

F
 
Okay then. How about the CTDs? How do you justify and rationalize them away?
 
Originally posted by Edge
Okay then. How about the CTDs? How do you justify and rationalize them away?
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I only have explanations, but no justifications.

Complex games, low amounts of programmer(s) and a short development time explains it, but does not justify it.

Working as a single programmer is not fun, when your competitors can afford 20 programmers per game.
 
Originally posted by Havard
That's a different Paradox company, unrelated to "ours"...
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:confused: :confused: there are 2 Paradox companies....? Then why do they list under the same company "your" games (EU/HOI) and "their" games like X-men Backyard wrestling and then say in the txt that its Eidos product...??

F
 
Originally posted by Fiendix
:confused: :confused: there are 2 Paradox companies....? Then why do they list under the same company "your" games (EU/HOI) and "their" games like X-men Backyard wrestling and then say in the txt that its Eidos product...??

F
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Because they haven't got a clue? ;)

Paradox Entertainment is our Paradox, based in Sweden. Paradox Development is a US company developing console games like "Backyard Wrestling" and "X-Men".
 
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