Spain too strong in MP?

[Jens Z]

In our MP campaing (currently 1605) Spain steadily grows in power and VP points. It just seems to be unstoppable.

What are your experience with a powerfull Spain. Is there some hope that other countries catch up in the last third of the game (1700-1800)? Can Spain only be stopped by a large alliance?

Please only post your MP experience...

 

[Mowers]

I've not had this problem myself. Do you have French, English players? Also having a portuguese player can help the Spanish player as there is a treaty in which he inherits it at some point.

 

[JohnMK]

Admittedly Spain is a powerhouse, not much you can do except realize that and band up together to keep her at bay. And for the second poster, there is no event whereby Spain inherits Portugal. There's simply a vassalization event, well, actually two of them. One in 1580, and one in 1621.

 

[Mowers]

yeah, I appreciate that, very inaccurate choice of words on my behalf.

However, my point is that by having an early Portuguese player who then switches to Holland or Sweden can have a big impact on the success of Spain. Basically when the vassalisation event occurs it can lead to a super spain if the Portuguese player has done his homework- which ought not to be difficult.

Anyhow, as JohnMK points out, Spain is meant to be a powerhouse, if its not then there has been a significant deviation from a generic historic pattern. In Mp players with a brain ought to be aware of this and start turning their attention to the Spanish player, thus securing their own long term future instead of short term AI bashing which is always a sign of limited ability.

 

[unmerged(6757)]

In all the games I have played where Spain was human controlled. We usually form a coalition against them early and begin harrasing and disrupting there play. It helps to keep them weaker. Also it is a must to have a strong human France player to counteract the Spain player.

 

[Jens Z]

Yes, we have a French player and he is second in VPs. But his income is only half as high as that of Spain by now.

So France needs allies. First choice: England. Unfortunately, England is now played by the computer after the human player left the game.

Second, Danmark (Player). No way. Danmark is struggling with France about the western and northern German states so he will certainly not join an alliance with France. Even worse Danmark has recently joined the Spanish alliance.

Other human players are Russia and the Ottomans. Both are too far away to be of any good help.

Other powerful (but computer controlled) European states are: England and Poland. Portugal is vassal of Spain and Holland is vassal of France

So we have a France surrounded by two human players. THe only human ally would be Russia which is far away but possibly could deal with Danmark.

It all looks like a two-front campaign for the Frenchman...


PS: Im playing France )

 

[unmerged(6757)]

Originally posted by Jens Z

PS: Im playing France )

Well good luck then, my friend I would diffinetly get the Russians help to crush Denmark, and recruit England to help deal with Spain. Keep me updated I really want to hear how this one comes out. By the way who are the players in the game? Also if you need a need a strong England, I could always take up the reigns if the other guy does not come back

 

[Jens Z]

Thx for your offer. I wish I could take it. However, we play over LAN. If you ever come to Düsseldorf, Germany you are gladly invited though.

Yesterday we continued our campaign (game time 1599 to 1640) and France had to fight its first 2-front war against Denmark and Spain! Actually it was a 3-front war as France had to fight in Northern Europe (vs Denmark), Southern Europa (vs Spain) and Caribic (vs Spain). Fortunately, the french treasury was filled with about 6000 Dukats at that time. France decided to fight a defensive war attrition (keeping its armies within its borders). Human players tend to form mass armies in order to beat any opponent in their way. Such armies have quite an impact but on the downside you have to deal with high attrition casualties due to lack of supply within enemy territory and a slight moral malus. The strategy worked and France could manage to keep all continental provinces free of enemies while keeping a sufficient manpower reserve. The Spain player told me later on that he had used up all his manpower in that battles and needed to recruit mercenaries.

The war in the Central America however went worse. Busily moving troops around in Europe French couldnt prevent Spain from grabbing two french gold provinces in Mexico which Spain could "annex" without peace treaty according to the rules.

We waged war for about 2 years when the war exhaustion slowed us down more and more. France feared that Spain continued grabbing "his" french occupied provinces in Central America and therefore started peace settlements. White peace was not accepted so France offered one northern province (Kleve) which Denmark accepted. Seeing his ally withdrawing and Spanish revolters popping up everywhere the Spainsh player offered a white peace which France accepted without hesitating. France certainly could have settled for a better peace with Denmark but was hit by unfavourable events at that time and needed to react.


Conclusion:
France lost two Gold provinces and one continental province.
France used up about 3000 dukats for the war (troops). Spain and Denmark together may have spent about 6000 Dukats or more.

Lesson? Waging war against an healthy player led country can be quite costly and is rarely worth it. But it's a hellova fun.



to be continued...

 

[unmerged(6757)]

Originally posted by Jens Z
Thx for your offer. I wish I could take it. However, we play over LAN. If you ever come to Düsseldorf, Germany you are gladly invited though.

Hmm, anyone got money for a ticket they want to lend me Also it sounds like you didn't come off too bad. How are the talks with Russia going to get them on your side?

 

[Jens Z]

I was finally able to form an alliance with Russia. So the next war should be a bit more fair.

BTW, does anybody know if there are some negative event-triggers for Spain between 1600 and 1800 ?

 

[unmerged(6757)]

Great can't wait to see how that one turns out. As far as negative events for Spain. Well I have not played them much past the 1600's. But I think there is some kind of repay or rebuild realm after spainish armada type event, and the connection to the Hapsburg if it has not already come. Of course there is also the Napoleonic war coming up someday, can't forget that

 

[Achiles]

I think it's unfair how everyone gangs up on Spain. The spanish player may become very powerful and rich but that doesn't mean their autimatically a threat to the well being and peace of europe and the world. What if you have a peaceful non-conquertheworld Spain? It's kinda like saying anyone who carries a gun is a killer. One thing that has kept me away from MP so far has been the bloodthirsty attitude of alot of the people in this community. Even the supposed continuation games and peacful players are very warlike. Alot of people don't seem to think past the first 100 years. Some don't even plan for beyond the end of the decade. I'm also surprised that MP is so playercentric. Jens Z, why do you completely discount Poland and England as possible allies just because they are computer controlled? Most players seem to do this same thing. If a country is not human controlled it is of no consequence at all. It is mearly lunch for the ravenous human players. This I think is a major mistake made by many people. England could be very helpful in insuring that the balance in any war is tiped in your favor Jens. At the very least an alliance with England would mean you wouldn't be threatened by her later. Unfortunately it seems you really didn't consider that side of it much. This seems to be an attitude that is pervading the gaming industry and community. An attitude of impatience, short-sightedness, and over confidence. Even in a fine community of strategy gamers such as this, that attitude is present and thriving in a small way. It really saddens me to see that. Cya, bye!

 

[Mowers]

A number of points in there.

Yeah, it does thrive in a small way but that exactly what it is. I have played with around 160 players in the past 4 months and I would say that around a quarter have the symptoms you describe. Some badly some just slightly.

To me the problem of warfare and ahistorical development develops for a number of reasons. When you have more than a couple of short term players in a game they tend to panic. They see one major being devoured and tend to join in. Another reason is poor setup with the players being spread across Europe. We have adopted a 3 province rule against the AI in Europe. Essentially you can not take more than 3 provinces ( with small colonies and TP’s counting as half) from AI countries in a single war. And excessive AI bashing is distinctly frowned upon.

What you need to do is to stop it is to place the AI in human alliances. This make the human players think twice before they make any sort of move. There has been a separate debate about this in another thread and my arguments are there. I have found that players that can ally with the AI and take advantage of this do rather well.

Interestingly enough in our current game we have a 8-12 province AI poland that has existed quite happily between Russian, Ottoman, Austria, Swedish and Prussian players and hasn’t been touched. The reason? Its almost entirely protestant. Prussia and Sweden were busy fighting one another and I am convinced that Russia will move in to protect it should an AI bash begin. What does this say? Well, once you have a decent set of players it makes a big difference. Finding them takes time.

As for Spain, a peaceful non conquer the world Spain doesn’t sound like a rich or very powerful Spain. Spain gets powerful and rich by conquering the Americas and parts of the far East. It needs to conquer to stand up to France and England, it is inherently weak without its colonies and gold. If Spain is the leading nation and is vulnerable then why not take advantage of that? You talk at length about players failing to look more than 10 years down the road yet it is my experience that the worst sort of player is those who ignore the rise of super powers, whether they be on their border or not. If you don’t act quickly against human players who are developing very quickly then the window of opportunity will close on you.

 

[Achiles]

Well bmoores, Spain doesn't really have to conquer much at all to become the richest and most powerful state in the world. The only nations Spain has to conquer are the Aztek, Zapotek, Mayans, Incans, and Chimu. Those conquests should be expected by the other players. Otherwise, in Spain's case, it's just colonize, colonize, colonize. The problems seem to arise when the spanish player takes all that wealth and power garnered from mass colonization and uses it for european or eastern conquest. I can understand the allure to. All that wealth and power just sitting there, completely untapted. It's hard to resist the temptation to try to build an empire in europe the rivalls Charles V's. Or conquer India before the english and french can get on the scene in force. There are other appealing targets all over the place. The urge for conquest is very very tempting in Spain's case. Paradoxically(spelling?) Spain is the nation that can least aford it because everyone expects Spain to give into that urge sooner or later. Thing is even Spain can't stand up forever against the wrath of every human player and the AI. So Spain eventually buckles and breaks and losses all her wealth and power. What the spanish player should do is write a peaceful and detailed statement of purpose before the game and make sure every other player reads it. Then follow that statement of purpose to the letter. This shows that Spain's word can be trusted. The spanish player should discuss any major military actions they are going to take with the other players and make his intent clear. If the long periods of peace bore the spanish player some then he could take an interventionist role under the guise of maintaining the BoP. But the spanish player still needs to make it clear to the other players that he is not trying to build an empire but is mearly trying to help maintain the BoP. The main thing though is that the spanish player must never break his word to the other players. The only hope Spain has for longterm success is a sterling reputation with the other players. Basically Spain should try to stay under the other player's radars so to speak. The other players, especially England and France are going to be very jealous and afraid of Spain. Spain must placate their fears and direct their jealousy elsewhere so that she can have peace and prosperity. Spain should be a diplomat not a warrior.

P.S. That bloodthirsty comment was a bit out of line. I apologize to anyone I offended. Cya, bye!

 

[Mowers]

Some good points there. Of course that should be the way that Spain ought to proceed. As you rightly point out Spain is unlikely to be able to become the dominant power in Europe through military conquests against Human players. Although as you again point out I think its worth Spain engaging in Europe in order to maintain the BoP and build up a big enough collection of vassals and allies to slow the eventual decline down. I do think that Spain ought to use that wealth to stop others challenging his lead, but the key, as pointed out is not to attract too much attention or find its self embroiled in a general European war that it can not win.

 

[Jens Z]

Very sound summorize from Achiles. I see it the same way.

As far as AI countries are concerned: I (as France) would be glad to have an alliance with England and Poland to counterbalance Spain. However, its difficult to "grab" them as they both have alliances themself.

With a human player you can have an "alliance" even if he is locked in his own alliance. Moreover, you can plan with humans better as far as strategy is concerned. AI countries can only be helpful in the operational part of the game harrassing the common enemy with waves of troops.

 

[Achiles]

Point well taken Jens, and thank you for the compliment. Also I was probably hasty in my assumption of your reasons for not allying with England or Poland. I apologize for any offence I caused. Cya, bye!

 

[Jens Z]

No Problem.

In a tough MP fights you actually need as much help (allies) as possible, be it a human player country or a AI country.

BTW, we continued our campaign yesterday for another 40 years. There were no player vs player wars. Most of us tried to strenghten our achievments by administrative messures (converting, colonizing, etc). Of course some small scale wars with minor countries took place, manly outside Europe.

On the Diplo front I could form a nice alliance with France (me), England (now player again), Russia (player) and Netherland (AI). The spainish/danish Aliance have watched this with "fear" and they both played much more less aggressive this time. Hurray!

I tried to invite other AI countries but it is extremly hard to pass and know the time when their alliance has come to and end, thus making them free for another one. The only way is to look in your management folder and look at the end date of the corresponding alliance. However, remembering this date for serveral hours in the heat of a MP game is not easy. Even if you are very quick (AoE type of player ;-) it is possible that the AI country joins another alliance immediately after leaving his old giving you next to no chance to invite that country. Very frustrating.

This is the only reason why I have so few Ai countries in my alliance.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Strange. I always though that Spain is very vulnerable in AoE, the only one exception is the period when Spain already has land tech 9, while France doesn't.


GC, on the other hand.... Spain could be real monster.

 

[Jens Z]

Sorry, I should have been more precise.

With "AoE" I meant "Age of Empires" and the quickness some players show while moving their mouse around, clicking here and there in seconds.

As far as our game is concerned we do play the GC. We are currently in 1660 and Spain has become the dominating power controlling nearly all of North, central and south america.

At the beginning of the GC, France and Spain were neutral to each other. France has to deal with England and Spain concentrated on exploration and colonizing. Indeed, Spain would have been vulnerable at that time, but this is our first MP-GC and so we were all shocked by the speed the spanish player increased his power. On the other hand, its nice to have surprises like this in MP-games.