Stellaris - Squires do not receive Ethics-based bonuses form Monuments

[Northstar1989]

Description
Squires do not receive Ethics-based bonuses form Monuments

Game Version
Phoenix v 4.0.21 (bb43)

What version do you use?
Steam

What expansions do you have installed?
Plantoids, Humanoids, Synthetic Dawn, Utopia, Leviathans Story Pack, Apocalypse, Megacorp, Distant Stars, Ancient Relics, Lithoids, Federations, Necroids, Aquatics, Overlord, Toxoids, First Contact, Galactic Paragons, Astral Planes, Season 8 Expansion Pass, The Machine Age, Cosmic Storms, Grand Archive

Do you have mods enabled?
No

Please explain your issue is in as much detail as possible.
Squire jobs, despite replacing Civilians on the Knights of the Toxic God habitat, receive no bonuses from Monuments (which no longer provide Culture Worker jobs, compensated for by these Ethics-based previously provided by Culture Workers to all pops...)

Steps to reproduce the issue.
Build a Monument on the Knights origin Order Habitat. Build another on a planet. Compare the bonuses.

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File(s) attached

 

[Jay Sherman]

I noticed this too but wasn't sure if bug or working as intended (since they're technically not civilians), and Knights do not need a buff so...

In any case it would be nice to get clarification on it.

 

[Northstar1989]

I noticed this too but wasn't sure if bug or working as intended (since they're technically not civilians), and Knights do not need a buff so...

In any case it would be nice to get clarification on it.

Knights origin do need a buff. To keep up with just how badly the -20% Energy and -10% Alloy (or, -30%/-15% with Generous Funding, which is suboptimal but fun for certain Unity builds) production debuffs hurt your early expansion...

Regardless, those is not for Knight jobs, but for Squires. The monuments are effectively worthless on Order habitats, as they no longer provide jobs OR ethics-based buffs there (compare to 3.x where they gave substantial Unity jobs AND ethics-based boosts to ALL pops on the Habitat...)

The devs have merged Kngifts in every major update since their release, and still, there are players who haven't kept up with how they've gotten weaker and weaker who complain they're "OP" just because they played them or kept up with some of the insane "pop-herding/Despoiler" antics people got up to when they were first released (in 4.0, I'm not even sure if it's POSSIBLE to infinitely-stack pops on the Order habitat anymore, as the devs merged Pop Assembly into Pop Growth, and growth stops/reverses entirely with high Overcrowding... And, you no longer get extra Knights jobs for pops on the habitat anyways)

This is a bug report, though. Please stay on-topic. Squires are a direct replacement for Civilians now, and were only made such in a minor update *after* 4.0 (you got Civilians on the order habitat instead when 4.0 first launched, if I'm not mistaken) and this change, plus removing all Culture Worker jobs (which badly nerfs certain unique planets/modifiers, like the Moon Prison, that gave Culture Workers before: and now only give Entertainers or nothing...) was probably not intended to work like this.

Squires are categorized as "Denizens" (the new strata below workers) for many game purposes, and were probably meant to enjoy the buffs of Monuments (without them, they're actually much WORSE than buffed Civilians...) and possibly certain Civics, like Civil Education's state academy building.

P.S. Check out my other bug report, on how Pre-sapients aren't handled correctly anymore either. They now block you from meeting the Authoritarian faction demand to run Stratified Economy, forcing you to embrace Slavery or run robot servitude (a minor problem for Spiritualist Authoritarians) to stop them being a massive 30% less happy with you...

 

[Jay Sherman]

Regardless, those is not for Knight jobs, but for Squires.

With "Knights do not need a buff" I meant the Origin.

The devs have merged Kngifts in every major update since their release, and still, there are players who haven't kept up with how they've gotten weaker and weaker who complain they're "OP" just because they played them or kept up with some of the insane "pop-herding/Despoiler" antics people got up to when they were first released

I'm currently on a 4.0.21 campaing, Grand Admiral, high crisis setting, no scaling (so GA buffs start from the beginning) and they ARE powerful. Please don't assume people talk without knowing what they say.

This is a bug report, though. Please stay on-topic. Squires are a direct replacement for Civilians now, and were only made such in a minor update *after* 4.0 (you got Civilians on the order habitat instead when 4.0 first launched, if I'm not mistaken) and this change, plus removing all Culture Worker jobs (which badly nerfs certain unique planets/modifiers, like the Moon Prison, that gave Culture Workers before: and now only give Entertainers or nothing...) was probably not intended to work like this.

As I said, I can see it being either a design decision (since they are strictly different than civilians) or a bug. Either way a clarification from devs would be nice. As I said.

were probably meant to enjoy the buffs of Monuments (without them, they're actually much WORSE than buffed Civilians...)

They are definitely not worse, they buff your knights a lot.

P.S. Check out my other bug report, on how Pre-sapients aren't handled correctly anymore either.

I don't know what it has to do with this topic ("please stay on topic") but actually I already upvoted that thread, before commenting here.

 

[Ishyro]

there are players who haven't kept up with how they've gotten weaker and weaker

That's definitly not my experience. For me they got a huge buff with the habitat change, and another huge buff with bio reactor and then space fauna (less relevant now that livestock is not the way to go).
And the recent buff is beyond ridiculous.

Should Squires receive civilian output?
If Knights are properly nerfed at the same time, why not.

 

[turtleturtle111]

As I said, I can see it being either a design decision (since they are strictly different than civilians) or a bug. Either way a clarification from devs would be nice. As I said.

The devs added a new modifier that allows any job to be counted for being movable. That is the only thing that squires have in common with civilians in the code. There is no reason to think they should be inheriting civilians ethics or anything else they do not use any of the same code outside of this single line.

count_as_available_for_ai = yes

That is it. The game does actually have a direct comment about it being quasi specialist job

possible_precalc = can_fill_specialist_job #deliberate, they are baby knights

The tags further list it as being a solider job.

    tags = { soldier amenities }

 

[Northstar1989]

the recent buff is beyond ridiculous.

Meaning?

Also, you did not support any of your claims. Please provide reasons/evidence if making sweeping statements.

 

[Ishyro]

With the habitat change, we got bigger habitats, so more squire on the toxic god habitat. Now, it's more knights, but it's basically the same thing.
I guess you can argue that now that knights habitats are all the same if you don't pick the dark matter device, bigger habitats don't matter that much, but it is still better to put all the pops on a single habitat, since squire buffs are not empire wide.

Bio reactor, was only relevent when knights had to use livestock. So yes, it doesn't matter now, but the ability to convert some of that useless food to usefull energy was extremly good before 4.0.
Same thing with cloning space faunas, by making the useless food becoming actually useful, and remove the need for alloys, you were able to keep 90% of your pops on the habitat at all time in 3.14.

Concerning 4.0, Knights are limited by pop numbers only during early game, so you can spam them and finish your quest in 40-50 years easily. You want to rush unity in the fast ascension meta, and while Toxic God will be slower than an ascencion origin like Overtunned or Teachers of the Shroud, it will be faster than a random one (the Spiritualist start has like 80 unity per month day one).
And on top of that, with the job efficiency bonus affecting squires, giving even more job efficiency to knights, you have something that can be considered beyond ridiculous.

The only "nerf" Knights received in the recent years was the luminous blade switch from alloy output to knight upkeep. It was less relevant when you could ignore alloys anyway, and now that knight upkeep can be huge, this upkeep removal is actually good.
Also, their output wasn't touched when scientists were nerfed.