Steppe population density is too high

[name_here]

I've started up a few games as nomads, and I'm finding it seriously irritating that like 90% of steppe counties are directly held by nomads, leaving only a small number of herders. That means that when I'm going looking for a migration target, pretty much everything in range has been eaten down to equilibrium. My expectation was that I'd be migrating a lot to claim higher-fertility counties, but instead I'm finding I might as well stick in one place to keep my tributary network and my equilibrium herd growth, because I'm not getting much if I move.

Another problem with migrating is the damn confederations. Everyone is in a confederation, and when my dominance increases I can't migrate to a smaller territory where I'm just displacing herders, I have to pick a fight with a whole confederation, or alternatively an Empire-tier. So there's a huge range of the game where I can't migrate and must content myself with easier tasks like subjugating the Byzantine Empire. That is really not what I thought I was signing up for.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

If youre not strong enough to fight a confederation, just raid until youre strong enough to do so.

 

[Willy Waggler]

content myself with easier tasks like subjugating the Byzantine Empire. That is really not what I thought I was signing up for.

Sounds about right. Switching from adventurer to nomad with "become a great conqueror" and getting by with conqueror trait, adventurer's men-at-arms, and a massive gold stash is already tedious.
Starting as a nomad with nothing to your name besides a couple of horses sounds like a nightmare.
Laughable domain and vassal caps, and absolute lack of ability to control vassals without tyranny is a deal breaker.

 

[PAnZuRiEL]

Starting as a nomad with nothing to your name besides a couple of horses sounds like a nightmare.
Laughable domain and vassal caps, and absolute lack of ability to control vassals without tyranny is a deal breaker.

What do you need domain for? What do you need vassals for? Why on earth would you need to "control" your vassals? All you need is horse.

Okay you do actually need domain, but the only thing you're getting from it is aggregate fertility for gaining horse. And you do need subjects, but only because they give you horse. And tributaries are unbounded. And you can raid for horse too. As soon as you're big enough to raid your neighbours, you can grow without limit. And if you're not big enough, you can move. There's just no reason to micromanage anything.

 

[CrazyRat]

I think steppe population is pretty OK… at least at the start date. It becomes problem later on.

Unless I am missing something, I think it is partly because the new nomads get created while they never really get destroyed in a way that make total nomad-held lands smaller. (i.e. get totally destroyed without land going to some other nomad)

Maybe if e.g. something happened to herd (during bad season or w/e) could just wipe the small nomads off the map into the obscurity the steppe would periodically get emptier.

 

[ray243]

I think steppe population is pretty OK… at least at the start date. It becomes problem later on.

Unless I am missing something, I think it is partly because the new nomads get created while they never really get destroyed in a way that make total nomad-held lands smaller. (i.e. get totally destroyed without land going to some other nomad)

Maybe if e.g. something happened to herd (during bad season or w/e) could just wipe the small nomads off the map into the obscurity the steppe would periodically get emptier.

Tribes should be more dynamic as they can merge or become part of larger tribe entirely.

Maybe something like a join other tribe button or mechanic?

 

[Voidian]

I've not found any use for herders myself

 

[Voidian]

Tribes should be more dynamic as they can merge or become part of larger tribe entirely.

Maybe something like a join other tribe button or mechanic?

Are their confederation mechanics different from nomads?

I know that can happen as nomads, a bunch of duchy tier nomads can join a confederation, working as a multilateral alliance (similar to how tribal realms worked in CK2) and the most powerful one can form a kingdom tier realm making them all vassals.


The kingdom then uses a new confederation sucession mechanic.

 

[The Shacks]

I've not found any use for herders myself

Yeah so far I just demand their pastures and give them to my actual vassals or move into them.

 

[aadf97799c]

hard for herder to survive when there are so many wolf around

maybe weaker nomad could be more easily annex by stronger one this could leave space for herder

 

[hdhp]

i kinda agree with the idea that smaller nomads should get culled - if only to reduce title bloat and char bloat, as i was crashing due to char numbers late game yesterday

 

[ray243]

Are their confederation mechanics different from nomads?

I know that can happen as nomads, a bunch of duchy tier nomads can join a confederation, working as a multilateral alliance (similar to how tribal realms worked in CK2) and the most powerful one can form a kingdom tier realm making them all vassals.


The kingdom then uses a new confederation sucession mechanic.

Confederations instead make the tribes even more protected and harder to dislodge. Temujin's own tribe was nearly wiped out after all when his father died. Tribal identities in the nomadic world seems incredibly loose and rise and fall apart all the time.

 

[WTH666444]

Confederations instead make the tribes even more protected and harder to dislodge. Temujin's own tribe was nearly wiped out after all when his father died. Tribal identities in the nomadic world seems incredibly loose and rise and fall apart all the time.

Somebody else has noted that there should be an easier way to dislodge confederations through war. As it stands, if you declare on one (out of ten) confederates, all of them immediately join and you can't demand more than what it is you might get from the one you declared one.
So you have to fight 1v10 for one's land,
1v9 for another's,
1v8,
1v7 etc., which is just bothersome. Maybe a dismantle confederation CB?

 

[Magil]

I don't think it's terrible, but I certainly wouldn't mind some adjustments to confederations. I managed to get the Khazars to tear themselves apart in 867 and consolidate their heartlands into my own realm (starting as a single-county nomad), but by the time I worked my way up to kingdom-tier I was bordered on three sides by large confederations.

I think herders would probably be more abundant if nomads were encouraged to migrate a bit more and be less sedentary. For one thing vassals can't migrate at all, and even without that I feel migration range is a bit too small. If you were actually fighting for the good lands instead of just keeping your head down and waiting out the bad seasons in middling lands there'd probably be more herders around and fewer nomads.

I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the system as is; in fact, I'm rather enjoying it, but it would probably be a bit better with some number adjustments.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Confederations instead make the tribes even more protected and harder to dislodge. Temujin's own tribe was nearly wiped out after all when his father died. Tribal identities in the nomadic world seems incredibly loose and rise and fall apart all the time.

Ya what? Tribal identities have long and storied histories, as you just need one herder to get several concubines to start it again, compared to a dynasty where its only the direct male heirs of an ancestor. Turks claiming oghuz ancestry is the clearest example of how long a tribal identity can last

 

[ray243]

Ya what? Tribal identities have long and storied histories, as you just need one herder to get several concubines to start it again, compared to a dynasty where its only the direct male heirs of an ancestor. Turks claiming oghuz ancestry is the clearest example of how long a tribal identity can last

Sure, but the Borjigin clan was down to its last few members and if Temujin didn't do as well as he did, his clan or what is left of his family members would become absorbed into other clans and tribes.

I use tribes rather than clans here because CK3 doesn't make much of difference in this DLC between clan and tribe.