Storm from the East

[Pontiac]

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere, sometime in the past, even so: what do we know of the way the Horde will be handled?

The map seems large enough to cover both major invasions of the Mongols. In both instances internal politics stemed the tide. One could have it so the Horde will always face a power struggle to the East that will force a withdrawl, but what if....

Some may argue that the Horde would have been beaten at some point in a continued invasion of the 1240's. I think such views are delusional. However, were the Mongols to sweep all before them, the game will have a rather sudden end. My guess is this is not what most are looking for. So, are the Mongols to be sapped of strengh so they can be handled by their opposition? Are they simply to follow the historical pattern and suddenly turn back East? Or will they be given a series of possible invasion goals, only one of which includes an out and out attempt to conguer the West?

Then of course, there is the invasion of the Middle East in the 1250's. Here again choices a plenty: Are the Mamluks destined to be the eternal saviors of Islam? Is it possible Islam could fade from being a power in the Middle East against the onslaught of the Horde and their Crusader allies? Has there been discussion of how things are to proceed?

 

[Endre Fodstad]

We have been over this a thousand times before in several fora.

The Mongols were not undefeatable, and indeed got the axe at several point even during their period of expansion. If they were undefeatable, they'd still be here today. They were masters of strategic mobility, however, which made them hard to put down permanently. By the time they had reached Europe their drive had lessened considerably and many argue that they never intended to stay in central europe at all.

EF

 

[unmerged(485)]

Originally posted by Endre Fodstad
We have been over this a thousand times before in several fora.

The Mongols were not undefeatable, and indeed got the axe at several point even during their period of expansion. If they were undefeatable, they'd still be here today. They were masters of strategic mobility, however, which made them hard to put down permanently. By the time they had reached Europe their drive had lessened considerably and many argue that they never intended to stay in central europe at all.

EF

So how do you imagine them being handled in the game? (At least I think that was the question.)

 

[unmerged(17569)]

This thread got me to thinking (need to exercise the the little grey-cells... occassionally) about the Mongols. How the AI handles them will be a major factor. Instead of trying to script a historical Mongol time-line... I would prefer that the AI handle it with a variable "results" system. In some cases, an early decline of the Mongols... in others, a more determined push to the West.

 

[crazy canuck]

Originally posted by Che Gorilla
This thread got me to thinking (need to exercise the the little grey-cells... occassionally) about the Mongols. How the AI handles them will be a major factor. Instead of trying to script a historical Mongol time-line... I would prefer that the AI handle it with a variable "results" system. In some cases, an early decline of the Mongols... in others, a more determined push to the West.

And to some extent event driven. As a recall it, one of the reasons the Mongols stopped their drive west was internal succession which required the leaders of the armies to turn back to settle the matter.

 

[unmerged(17569)]

Yes, when the Khan died... the immediate family and clan would assemble to chose a new leader. Major army commanders and selected notables would be included in to the deliberations. If the transfer of power did not require this...

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Originally posted by crazy canuck
And to some extent event driven. As a recall it, one of the reasons the Mongols stopped their drive west was internal succession which required the leaders of the armies to turn back to settle the matter.

Its been awhile since I did my research but In the 1230's Ogodei (temujins successor) sent a probing army east for reconissance and conquest if possible. The Mongols got caught in a lot of skirmishes and lost several small battles between the Volga the Ural rivers, In 1237 they managed to conquer Vladimir then moved onto, Kolmna and Moscow in 1238 and in 1240 destroyed Kiev.

in 1241 they reached the outskirts of Vienna after having defeated a well trained, well equiped and heavily armed Hungarian force. Ogodei died, and his death marked a pretty intriquing set of circumstances for his successor. The Mongols elected thier Khans after heavy politicing, and Ogodei's widow was a real wheeler dealer. Make a long story short Mongekei became Khan amidst a lot of political infighting, and it was the begining of the split of the Mongol empire into the many Khanates.

The Mongols never made it back to Europe in force, but Europe became aware of them and it led to a real dyer situation socially and politically, the Pope Innocent IV sent John of Plano to gather info and gauge the Mongol disposition in the hopes of thwarting another invasion. Mongols couldnt anyway due to the politics at the time, but in 1250 Louis IX allied with the Mongols and a joint invasion of Persia was launched. 1258 Baghdad then damascus were crushed and then finally the Mamelukes stopped them in 1260.

That was really it for the Mongols moving West, the Mongols focused on Southern China, then Korea, then Japan then the dynasty collapsed.

How that will get into the game, or if it will be alterable I dont know, but certainly the Mongol expansions had a role in the European theatre at the time. It should be in the game somehow, someway. The mongols could be defeated, in most cases when they fought pitched battles they lost and they won mostly using tactics that didnt adhere to chivalry and honor. They would flee allow you to exhasut your mount and troops, then encircle you and use arrows to wear you down. These people are expert horsemen and mobile warfare was thier center piece, tactically you can stop them when they stop moving for siege but often Europeans attempt to defeat them by using tactics that were to easily exploited.

These historical facts should be in the game somewhere, I hope there is a scenario for the Mongol expansions much like in EU the "American Dream" so in the GC its possible to alter this outcome.

 

[Pontiac]

Originally posted by Endre Fodstad
We have been over this a thousand times before in several fora.

The Mongols were not undefeatable, and indeed got the axe at several point even during their period of expansion. If they were undefeatable, they'd still be here today. They were masters of strategic mobility, however, which made them hard to put down permanently. By the time they had reached Europe their drive had lessened considerably and many argue that they never intended to stay in central europe at all.

EF

Irrespective the revisionist history, I am interested in what, or rather how, the Mongols will be delt with in the game. Ideas?

So how do you imagine them being handled in the game? (At least I think that was the question.)

Quite.

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Originally posted by Pontiac
Irrespective the revisionist history, I am interested in what, or rather how, the Mongols will be delt with in the game. Ideas?




Quite.

The historical time line for Mongol movements West is pretty well documented. IT shouldnt be to hard to have an event that creates an army that invades into Hungary and Russia. The traits of the army are subjective, not knowing what they will be (mobility value, attack, defense) who knows, but someone can calculate it Im sure.

Thats how I think it should be in the game, it happened, and Europe could have been in some trouble, at the very least Vienna could have been sacked if the Khan hadnt died. How far would they have gotten? hard to say

 

[unmerged(485)]

Originally posted by Odin1970
..........................

How far would they have gotten? hard to say

I believe that is the central point. EF's point, if I am reading it correctly, is that it was not inevitable that the Mongols would have gotten all the way to the Atlantic if they had not been called back.

Because of one of Sergei's posts suggesting that the Mongols may not be called back to Karakorum (I think that was where the were located) it is good fun to speculate what might have happened. The thread where all that speculation took place is what was mentioned by EF.

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Originally posted by Sonny
I believe that is the central point. EF's point, if I am reading it correctly, is that it was not inevitable that the Mongols would have gotten all the way to the Atlantic if they had not been called back.

Because of one of Sergei's posts suggesting that the Mongols may not be called back to Karakorum (I think that was where the were located) it is good fun to speculate what might have happened. The thread where all that speculation took place is what was mentioned by EF.

Karakorum was the capital until approx 1260 when they began to focus on China.

Thanks for setting me back on topic, or question. All we can do is speculate, I have done a lot of reading on the Mongols I dont think they could have made it that far, but if anyone could have it was them.

The death of Ogodei and the call back during the western campaign is a massive, massive historical event for the period. I dont think you can have the initial mongol invasion without it, sure they would have been stopped eventually but without that call back Vienna would have been raised, definately and then who knows.

 

[unmerged(17569)]

I think that the threat of a Mongol invasion had more impact on eastern and western Europe... than the actual event. Russia was shaped to a large degree by Mongol domination. It certainly accelerated autocratic rule.

 

[unmerged(485)]

Originally posted by Odin1970
........sure they would have been stopped eventually but without that call back Vienna would have been raised, definately and then who knows.

That's the fun of it - seeing when/where they would have been stopped. Maybe another Otto would have come upon the scene and "saved" the western world from the barbarian hordes.

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Originally posted by Sonny
That's the fun of it - seeing when/where they would have been stopped. Maybe another Otto would have come upon the scene and "saved" the western world from the barbarian hordes.

Bah, this isnt fun this is war !

Might be fun to see Sonny sure, but the fact is they were called back for the election of Mongeke, an undisputable historical fact.

So if it isnt in the game, fine, but it should then change the entire dynamics of Europe because the Mongol force wasnt unstoppable but it certainly wasnt incapable of marching to Paris either. It was mobile, expirenced, equiped and had a -mystique- of invincibility.

So if they dont get called back then its going to have to be one hell of an effort to stop them, more then likely a Crusade which would be fun to play out, but it didnt happen that way so we cross into the realm of a historical outcomes.

 

[Hrv123]

Horde performed well in Russian, Poland and Hungarian plains, but if it turn west, Alps and Geman hily forest terrain aint exactly good for horsmen rampage.

Not to mention that any bether fortifized city (read as: it have wals ) was hard to concuer by speed factor (In what Horde was good, speed and mobility) or to actualy take it.

Fact that horde turn east, probaly save lots of european pesants and knits lifes, but hord it sel,f would be anhiliated in Alps or estern German forests for certain.

 

[unmerged(485)]

Baghdad had walls.

I don't want to start up the argument again. I'm Saying there are lots of things which will not happen as they did in history because once the game is into 1067 it is an entirely alternate history. I fhte Mongols go away at a specific date then I will be very disappointed.

 

[Endre Fodstad]

I always love to start up this argument again because people seem to have amnesia after every debate. Observe new thread.

 

[unmerged(6160)]

I agree with the Terrain issue, on the plains up till Vienna, the mongols thrived, like all horesmen who had come before them, but if they had entered Italy/Germany/France they would have suffered greatly...

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Originally posted by historycaesar
I agree with the Terrain issue, on the plains up till Vienna, the mongols thrived, like all horesmen who had come before them, but if they had entered Italy/Germany/France they would have suffered greatly...

Thats just it, the mongol army wasnt just cavalry, they had some of the best Chinese engineer units in the world in addition to that thousands of conscripted footmen. The Mongol army that moved into Europe wasnt a horde it was an army and it was highly organized.

Granted a Horde would have had trouble in the terrain of middle europe but this was an elite exprienced force and if it wasnt called back then who knows.

I know rekindling these debates get old, but 17 posts later it seems some are still intrested and why not? what else is there to chat about?

 

[unmerged(6160)]

Every Horsemen based army(and yes the mongols were one of these) failed, the huns, avars, bulgars, mayagars, etc...