The custom title decisions should be nerfed

[Alexander Seil]

It's 30 years into the game and the Carolingian Empire is crawling with assorted Kings of Tuscanies and Illyrias. The ability to circumvent territorial requirements by paying 500/1000 gold/prestige is silly, as even the AI routinely accumulates such amounts. The prestige cost should be tripled.

 

[CarbrBard]

I agree. If I actually knew how to mod the cost for creating the 'Titular' Kingdoms, I'd double them - or more.

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

I've never seen this happen myself, I tend to have the opposite issue happen in my games, both vanilla and CK2+, where Charlemagne never forms his empire at all and he spends all his time creating all the kingdom-tier titles he can before he dies, leaving his son to continue the process until they're holding every kingdom-tier title they can....

 

[Alexander Seil]

Hiking the costs of custom titles creation should help. I think in CK2+, the Franks do start with a territorially defined Empire that Charlemagne should be well positioned to create naturally, especially if he isn't wasting prestige creating 3 province custom kingdoms.

The point is that custom King level titles should be reserved to exceptionally powerful warlords who "made themselves," not random 3 province vassals who only have the prestige because they have nothing to spend it on.

 

[Rylock]

The problem isn't the custom titles, I think. It's all the extra titular titles which CK2+ has always had -- but we lowered the requirements back down to just 2 duchies a while back, so you see them a lot more often. I'll probably adjust the requirements for the AI to form titular kingdom titles.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Still, if that's the cause, that means the 500/1000 cost cannot even be justified by AI's incompetence. A player definitely ought to pay more for shiny titles that screw up the dejure map.

EDIT: Though, King of Tuscany? Illyria? Austria? Surely these can't be vanilla titular titles? Never seen these before.

 

[Rylock]

EDIT: Though, King of Tuscany? Illyria? Austria? Surely these can't be vanilla titular titles? Never seen these before.

They're not vanilla. These are extra titular titles which CK2+ has always had.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Missed the + in your answer...

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

It should be noted that if you have the Charlemagne DLC you can create a kingdom-tier title from your primary duchy and an empire-tier title from your primary kingdom which then gain the respective lower titles you hold (duchies for a kingdom and kingdoms for an empire) as their de jure territory, so it's quite possible to have a Kingdom, or even an Empire, of Austria in vanilla if you meet the requirements. It's entirely possible to create a kingdom larger than the Byzantine Empire without relying on de jure drift as a result.

 

[Rylock]

It should be noted that if you have the Charlemagne DLC you can create a kingdom-tier title from your primary duchy and an empire-tier title from your primary kingdom which then gain the respective lower titles you hold (duchies for a kingdom and kingdoms for an empire) as their de jure territory, so it's quite possible to have a Kingdom, or even an Empire, of Austria in vanilla if you meet the requirements. It's entirely possible to create a kingdom larger than the Byzantine Empire without relying on de jure drift as a result.

Yes, but the AI is already restricted from using that decision unless they either have a LOT of prestige or 4 duchy titles (I think, at that point, they've earned it).

 

[Alexander Seil]

I wonder if it would be possible to handle that with a bonus to drift, in that case. Seems odd that some lucky bastard could just suddenly create something that has heavy implications of centuries of legal precedent about it.

 

[Rylock]

I wonder if it would be possible to handle that with a bonus to drift, in that case. Seems odd that some lucky bastard could just suddenly create something that has heavy implications of centuries of legal precedent about it.

I don't think that's odd at all. That's how history works. Seeing as all custom titles are created as titular, it would take a fair amount of time before it could affect de jure status (100 years for kingdoms), so if the custom kingdom is around that long -- so be it.

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

Yes, but the AI is already restricted from using that decision unless they either have a LOT of prestige or 4 duchy titles (I think, at that point, they've earned it).

The actual requirements in vanilla are proud + 5000 prestige, ambitious + 5000 prestige, 70 holdings and 4 duchies, or 15000 prestige, on top of the requirement of 3 duchies or 35 holdings, 1000 prestige, and 300 gold to use the decision to found a kingdom. For a custom empire, the AI needs to be ambitious/proud and have 40000 prestige, or 120000 if they have neither trait in order for them to even have the option. In either case, the AI needs five (with proud or ambitious) or fifteen (if they have neither trait) times as much prestige to use each decision to become available in vanilla as the player needs in order to use the decision.

 

[zeress]

The actual requirements in vanilla are proud + 5000 prestige, ambitious + 5000 prestige, 70 holdings and 4 duchies, or 15000 prestige, on top of the requirement of 3 duchies or 35 holdings, 1000 prestige, and 300 gold to use the decision to found a kingdom. For a custom empire, the AI needs to be ambitious/proud and have 40000 prestige, or 120000 if they have neither trait in order for them to even have the option. In either case, the AI needs five (with proud or ambitious) or fifteen (if they have neither trait) times as much prestige to use each decision to become available in vanilla as the player needs in order to use the decision.

They also automatically get all the land de Jure, unless that's changed at all. So of course it costs significantly more, it's OP as hell. In addition, stupid high prestige gains are present in vanilla, so it's not a 1:1 thing you can compare.

 

[Kalista]

They also automatically get all the land de Jure, unless that's changed at all. So of course it costs significantly more, it's OP as hell. In addition, stupid high prestige gains are present in vanilla, so it's not a 1:1 thing you can compare.

To add to that as well prestige gain is much lower in plus than in vanilla as well.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I don't think that's odd at all. That's how history works. Seeing as all custom titles are created as titular, it would take a fair amount of time before it could affect de jure status (100 years for kingdoms), so if the custom kingdom is around that long -- so be it.

I believe what's said in this thread implies that they (custom title creators) get de-jure territory immediately, which is what I'm objecting to (to be fair, I haven't tested it myself). I meant to say that if it really works like that, and is considered reasonable, a more thematically appropriate way to handle this would be a drift bonus (i.e., 50 instead of 100 years), if possible. Custom and titular titles should be handled identically (except for whatever special cases are necessary for flavor), and costs set reasonably high for both.

 

[zeress]

I meant to say that if it really works like that, and is considered reasonable, a more thematically appropriate way to handle this would be a drift bonus (i.e., 50 instead of 100 years), if possible. Custom and titular titles should be handled identically (except for whatever special cases are necessary for flavor), and costs set reasonably high for both.

Outside of picking one flat number in the defines, drift cannot be modified later in-game in any way