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Jan 30, 2007
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Dunno about the other people who play this mod, but I find myself longing back to the days of the vanilla land doctrine tree. I think CORE is an excellent mod (or I wouldn't bother writing this), but in all honesty I think the land doctrines section leaves something to be desired. I'll try to sum up my feelings in a few points:

- I know the intention behind the land doctrine tree was to create a situation where players would have to choose away some land doctrines unless they wanted to lag behind in other areas of development. This seems to work...at least partially. While it's true that researching all the doctrines leaves limited time for other research, this drawback is mitigated for nations with major powers as allies, as a smart player will coordinate his research so he's able to snatch lots of doctrine blueprints off his allies. In practice, it is possible (without negative modifiers to research) for most majors to keep up with all the land doctrine techs and still not lag notably behind in other areas (the SU lacks trading partners for doctrine prints, but can afford to neglect naval techs).

- But in all fairness, it is more than a slight bother to do this and requires you to be clever not only with what blueprints you trade for but what prints you give to your AI allies. So what if you're forced to choose between the different doctrines? In all honesty, it's not easy to choose. The list of modifiers from each is long and all seem minor. For all the +0% ones they're indistinguishable. Personally, after looking at them for a few minutes I decided to just research whatever doctrine I had someone suited for researching available instead of looking much at the specific effects. I'm sure the differences would matter

- The naming is distinctly uninspired. The entire land doctrines window is one giant bore to look at, and as a player it doesn't make me feel involved at all. I feel involved when I'm researching blitzkrieg doctrine or regimental combat, I don't feel involved when I'm researching defense 1939 (static). This works for industry, but not for combat-related techs!

- Doctrines are all about promoting a certain kind of tactics from the generals as the way to 'do things by the book'. Realistically, an army cannot both have static and elastic defense as a doctrine, because this is equivalent to having no doctrine at all! You can't simultaneously equip an army for trench warfare and blitzkrieg. Certain doctrines SHOULD eliminate others, and the player should be forced to make a definite choice between, for example, static and elastic defense doctrines.

- Also, I miss the way doctrine paths matured at different times. Like the spearheads path would be nice and ready early in the war, while human wave would mature a few years later. It provided both flavour and historically plausible outcomes.

Discuss.
 
I find myself, for the most part, ignoring land doctrines. The benefit they provide, versus the time invested in their research, simply isn't worth devoting tech team time. I can almost always find stuff on other screens that is much more worthy to devote a team to.
 
I too really loath the land doctrines, it's so generic and boring that I never really want to open the tab.
 
So... can this be fixed without a major overhaul?

Can I mod it by simply removing the land doctrine segment of the tech tree and replacing it with the vanilla version, or will that screw up the CORE mod because the mod isn't balanced for vanilla land doctrine techs?
 
The CORE land docs from .25 were great. I wish the overhaul wasn't so drastic. I agree that some techs should exclude others. That is what an army's doctrine is after all, a choice of alternatives given a national situation and limited resources.
 
Simon_Jester said:
So... can this be fixed without a major overhaul?

Can I mod it by simply removing the land doctrine segment of the tech tree and replacing it with the vanilla version, or will that screw up the CORE mod because the mod isn't balanced for vanilla land doctrine techs?

You'd have to also edit the AI files, or they wouldn't research properly.

PanzerWilly said:
The CORE land docs from .25 were great. I wish the overhaul wasn't so drastic. I agree that some techs should exclude others. That is what an army's doctrine is after all, a choice of alternatives given a national situation and limited resources.

I didn't like the last CORE's land doctrines either: Org and Morale were always the same, which made the armies incredibly boring. Yes, yes, I know that Japanese people aren't born with superior morale, and that all GIs weren't wussy little girls until 1943, but it gave each army their own personality.

My ideal land doctrine system would allow you to personalize your armies by choosing between branching techs that assign different org and morale bonuses to each unit type. Something like a cross between the doctrine systems of HoI1 and HoI2 vanilla. The techs that increase org and morale the most would also increase building costs, representing a "quality first" approach, allowing smaller nations the opportunity to build more with what little they have, at the cost of individual strength (also perhaps allowing the USSR to build more faster), while allowing the big boys like Germany, Britain and the US to build the expensive stuff, though they'd have to be very cautious of taking heavy casualties due to the higher re-enforcement costs.
 
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Hi,

Attempting to reinsert any alternative doctrine tree would be a giant undertaking. At a minimum you would need to adjust every INC file and and a majority of the AI and AI Switch files. Once that was done it would still be completely unbalanced, as the Tech teams are designed to work with the current structure and the entire AI has been optimized for it as well. 100+ hours of work (exclusive of the Tech Tree) IMO having built what is there now.

mm
 
Switching the numbers is the quick part. Testing, balancing, retesting, etc. is what takes time. You cannot simply make the same change in each file across the board. You have to tailor it on a country by country basis. Then test it. Then balance it. Then test it some more. Repeat until satisfied that everything works well.
 
ShadoWarrior said:
Switching the numbers is the quick part. Testing, balancing, retesting, etc. is what takes time. You cannot simply make the same change in each file across the board. You have to tailor it on a country by country basis. Then test it. Then balance it. Then test it some more. Repeat until satisfied that everything works well.

I can see how extensive playtesting would be critical for production or bordering (or whatever its called when you tell the AI to focus its deployment against certain enemies or attack/not attack certain provinces), but what are the risks involving research? If Germany received a Sealion AI switch, shouldn't it tell it to focus more on naval and air techs and less on armor. How do research priority playtests work, and what do they look for? :confused:
 
It may be a better approach to improve the land doctrine tree from where it stands now. The basic idea is ok: having a lot of variability without sticking to a "branch".

The fixes from what I have read here and experienced myself should be:
* Better naming of doctrines
* Some doctrines locking out other doctrines
* Doctrines also having some disadvantages or cancelling out the advantages of other doctrines.

Regards

T.
 
Having a land doctrine similar to the latest air doctrine would be fantastic. I think the new air doctrines by far have the best feasibility to them. I actually have to read what each air doctrine does and make choices now. Its great. The land doctrines I just research all of them without even looking at what they do.
 
Hi,

100+ Hours: Actually editing all of the required entires takes more time than you'd think, but ShadoWarrior is correct that the testing takes the longest time. To get decent AI performance you need to run the model through numerous times to observe how the AI sequences techs while making changes to prevent stupid behavior. For example, I've seen the AI assign a team with 1-2 matches to a project and within a week assign a different team (that has just completed a project and was thus "unavailable" for the first project) to a differnt project with 1-2 matches. If they had been reversed they would both get 4-5 matches. A player would never do this, but the AI does do it if you aren't careful and this bogs down their research terriblly. Making changes to the Land Doctrines will effect how the AI researches everything else as well. That is especially true since the AI is set up around actually having 3 Land doctrines available every year rather than possiblly 1 a year.

Naming: Tried to be more descriptive during the Beta. Feedback was it was confusing. So I reverted to something straight forward for the release. This needs work.

Disadvantages: Interesting idea. I'm not completely sure I buy the premise but I won't rule it out.

mm
 
When revisiting the land doctrines, please not only consider their naming (which is a minor quibble) but also consider making them more worthwhile to research. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, the benefits of each land tech isn't remotely close to being as good as techs on other screens. The land techs either need to be faster to research, or they need to be given more significant bonuses. As they are now they're essentially a waste of time better spent on other things.
 
If it will be less work to tweak the current setup rather than revert to the old, how about making them like the naval doctrines - several broad categories with a few either/or techs to give armies a national flavor.
 
ShadoWarrior said:
When revisiting the land doctrines... consider making them more worthwhile to research....the benefits of each land tech isn't remotely close to being as good as techs on other screens....As they are now they're essentially a waste of time better spent on other things.

Hi,

Interesting POV. Other people insist that the best strategy is pig piling into the Land Doctrines, as they are better than other techs. What is your basis for saying that the cost/benefit ratio is bad?

mm
 
dec152000 said:
What is your basis for saying that the cost/benefit ratio is bad?
Pick almost any other combat tech and you'll find bonuses of roughly 5% (and often more) to some single aspect of combat (leaving out of the discussion morale and org bonuses for the moment). This is true for most techs on the sea (naval superiority and anti-commerce branch techs for example) and air screens (such as in the various Army-directed Air Force doctrines). Compare this to a pile of 1% (or smaller) mods in the land doctrines. Sure, the typical land doctrine applies small mods to a bunch of different things. However, those mods are so small as to be almost unnoticeable in play, whereas you will see an immediate effect from a 5, 10, or 15% boost to whatever the air/sea doctrines are affecting. So the land techs are applying, say, a 1/2% to 1% on (for the sake of argument) 10 different land combat aspects, while a sea/air tech will apply a 5-10% mod to one aspect. From the designer's POV (and mathematically), this may be balanced. From a game-play perspective it isn't. You see and feel the 5-10% mod, you don't notice the tiny mods that are spread out. You have to research 5-10 land techs to feel the same degree of difference in combat capability that you do in 1-2 techs in air/sea. And it takes a LOT more tech time to achieve a 5% boost in offensive (or defensive) combat capability for land warfare than it does for air or sea warfare. The difference between researching one or two techs on the air/naval screens and researching a large chunk of the land doctrines screen.

IMO, and it seems I'm not alone in this, the whole land doctrines screen isn't particularly well thought out. I also don't think it's balanced. Certainly not when compared to air & naval. And this isn't even getting into the discussion of it's "feel", which as others have mentioned, lacks flavor, style, and distinction. The older version land doctrines screen was better (IMO), or even the Vanilla one. You not only had a feel for what direction your troops were going, but you also felt a sense of accomplishment after researching any single tech. Now? I've gained 0.5-1.0% to morale (or Org), and less than 1% to X, Y, and Z mods. Yawn.
 
Personally I find it worthwhile to research the land doctrine techs. Even if the bonuses are small, increasing stats like ground attack/defence efficiency, HQ supply modifier, event chances and in all honesty also morale and org, is always worthwhile because they're crucial to your land units' effectiveness. Also, comparing it to the naval/air techs might not be entirely fair, as any one given tech in those areas typically only increase the stats of only a few (in most cases one) type of unit, while the land techs tend to increase stats if not completely then nearly across the board.

But there is some sense in the argument that the doctrines' effects are so small that one may wonder if they couldn't be merged into a smaller number of techs.
 
Ackillez said:
But there is some sense in the argument that the doctrines' effects are so small that one may wonder if they couldn't be merged into a smaller number of techs.
That's the whole point of my argument. The benefits are so spread out that you have to spend a ridiculous amount of time to get an appreciable amount of benefit. You have a limited number of techs that you can research in a given space of time. Research in air or sea gains you a more noticeable improvement per unit of time. True, it's more narrowly-focused. But that's the point of players making choices, right? To pick a focus (or two).

The v0.3 land doctrine's shotgun approach is an inefficient use of tech research time. If you want to have supply bonuses, then create logistics techs. If you want HQ bonuses, then create HQ techs. This is the way the old/vanilla land doctrine techs worked, and there was nothing really wrong with that method. I think it's possible to achieve the same end result that v0.3 tries to do with fewer, better-focused techs.
 
The land doctrines are "small" and "easy" at the moment, which means also minor nations can make some progress there with low skill TECH teams. If you play GER od USA, you will not notice but its already different with JAP and ITA and I guess different again with CHI or ROM.

The land doctrine tree is not so hugely different from the naval doctrine tree, which to me seems very well done. What the naval doctrine tree offers is "feeling", i.e. well formulated doctrine names and trade-offs, i.e. some doctrines cancel out other doctrines.