The Provinces! (Scandinavia)

[Havard]

Ok, we don't know how the map will look, or which provinces will be in. What we do know is that there will be aprox. 900 provinces covering the area, giving a 2-to-3:1 ratio compared to EU2. From this, and history, I guess we should be able to think out a reasonable selection of provinces, right?

I start off with Scandinavia; Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark. I will list my suggestions below - please comment (even if you work in Paradox *hint* )

So... My initial suggestions:

Norway
In EU2 covered by 7 provinces = abt.17-21 CK provinces?
I suggest 17:
- Iceland
- Finnmark
- Hålogaland
- Namdalen
- Jamtland
- Herjedalen
- Trøndelag
- Møre
- Romsdal
- Sogn
- Hordaland
- Rogaland
- Agder
- Vestfold/Grenland
- Viken
- Oppland
- Båhus

Sweden
In EU2 covered by 8 provinces, should be abt. 16-24 CK provinces?
- Lappland
- Norrbotten
- Västerbotten
- Medelpad/Ångermanland
- Hälsingland
- Gästrikland
- Dalarna
- Värmland/Dalsland
- Västmanland
- Närke
- Uppland
- Södermanland
- Västergötland
- Östergötland
- Öland
- Småland
- Gotland

Finland
In EU2 covered by 6 provinces, should be abt. 12-18 CK provinces?
- Nyland
- Finland, Proper
- Tavastland
- Savolax
- Österbotten
- Karelen (=Kexholm?)


Denmark
In EU2 covered by 3 provinces, should be abt. 6-9 CK provinces?
I suggest 7(8?):
- Skåne
- Blekinge
- Halland
- Sjælland
- Fyn
- Jylland (Nord/Syd?)
- Slesvig?

 

[Idiotboy]

I´ll not comment Norway since my knowledge is non-existant about their buisness.

Denmark however. Jylland must be split into at least 2 provinces. Perhaps even 3, it is the biggest part of the nation after all. I very much believe that the part of the nation must have been divided into several counties or duchies earlier in the nations history.

Sweden, well Lappland was not really a part of Sweden in this period so although it could be in it should pretty much be uninhabited at this point of history. If we handle the thing strictly historically I think the Dalsland/Värmland combination could stand, but the Småland/Öland could not. The problem is of course that Öland was a rather unimportant backwater so I´m not sure it warrant an own prov. The provines to the north is also a big iffy. They weren´t all that divided into those parts this early on.

 

[unmerged(1302)]

I know Estland should have at least 8-10, seems to be offly much for a comp to handle.

 

[Idiotboy]

Originally posted by Crook
I know Estland should have at least 8-10, seems to be offly much for a comp to handle.

No offense but since when is Estland a part of scandinavia? And why should they have that many anyway?

 

[unmerged(1302)]

Originally posted by Idiotboy


No offense but since when is Estland a part of scandinavia? And why should they have that many anyway?

No offense, but I just showed what really a 1 and a half province thing in EU should become in CK. I base the number of provinces on the number of potentaial landowners in Estalnd, it wasn't only the Teutonic Order, you know.

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Crook


No offense, but I just showed what really a 1 and a half province thing in EU should become in CK. I base the number of provinces on the number of potentaial landowners in Estalnd, it wasn't only the Teutonic Order, you know.

We know we need to generalise a bit, and we know about how many provinces we have to split the set area into. The question now is not how many provinces we should have had, but which provinces can we expect, given the conditions.

I suggest you kick off a Baltic thread to discuss the area

 

[unmerged(1057)]

Finland

- Nyland
- Finland, Proper
- Tavastland
- Savolax
- Österbotten
- Karelen

but..that is of course my opinion..the Tornevalley is part of Västerbotten..Norrbotten is no province before 1809..
Lappland, both the swedish and finnish part..should be inhabited by Sapmis..

Sweden
addition to Havards list
- Västerbotten (including Norrbotten)
- Medelpad
- Ångermanland
- Småland (could be separated into the "folklands" of Njudung, Värend, Tjust, Finnveden, Aspeland, Tjust, Möre et cetera)

 

[Idiotboy]

Originally posted by Wasa

- Småland (could be separated into the "folklands" of Njudung, Värend, Tjust, Finnveden, Aspeland, Tjust, Möre et cetera)

I´d disagree with those out of the fact that a geographic entity called Småland was much more important during most of the CK time. Besides it would split it up into far to many, Småland isn´t that big after all. But if we go way back you are correct of course.

 

[unmerged(1302)]

Originally posted by Havard
We know we need to generalise a bit, and we know about how many provinces we have to split the set area into. The question now is not how many provinces we should have had, but which provinces can we expect, given the conditions.

I suggest you kick off a Baltic thread to discuss the area

I'll try

BTW, there is probably no need to start a thread on Russian provinces, Snowball will probably take care of that through their forum.

 

[unmerged(1057)]

Originally posted by Idiotboy


I´d disagree with those out of the fact that a geographic entity called Småland was much more important during most of the CK time. Besides it would split it up into far to many, Småland isn´t that big after all. But if we go way back you are correct of course.

..Note the word "could"..

 

[Idiotboy]

Originally posted by Wasa


..Note the word "could"..

Yes I know. You offered an opinion (or idea take your pick). I also offered one why it should not be so.

 

[unmerged(1057)]

Hmm..perhaps I am a bit "Scandophile"..but, a "normal" swedish..or norwegian province..is about twice the size of a centraleuropean one..

 

[Idiotboy]

Perhaps but one have to be reminded that the population in the north isn´t exactly as thick. I would guess it takes a basic number of resources to maintain a duchy or so and that makes them quite a bit bigger up here.

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Wasa
Hmm..perhaps I am a bit "Scandophile"..but, a "normal" swedish..or norwegian province..is about twice the size of a centraleuropean one..

Which sounds quite right

I guess most new provinces will come in the denser populated (and more fragmented) parts of Europe, not by splitting Småland into 7+ provinces

 

[Vandelay]

Bornholm is probably to small to be included in Denmark, which is too bad because the Arrchbishop of Lund´s castle there, Hammershus, was one of the biggest castles in medieval Scandinavia. Very cool ruin - go visit!

It seems that everyone has chosen to use the "landskap" as the basic "province" unit for Sweden. Another path would be to use the "län" instead. IMHO for Sweden the first half of the game (up to about 1300) the "landskap" should be used, but after that the "län" - but the game engine probably can´t handle it (although a dynamic map would be supercool!!!).

What about Åland/ Kastellholms län for Sweden? Our sources for Finland 1066 are too sketchy to make a territiorial division. The best thing is probably to use the division imposed by the Swedes and Novgorodians after their conquests even though it would be anachronistic for 1066.

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Wasa
Finland

- Nyland
- Finland, Proper
- Tavastland
- Savolax
- Österbotten
- Karelen

Which is the same ones as we have in EU2... Should Åland be a province?

but..that is of course my opinion..the Tornevalley is part of Västerbotten..Norrbotten is no province before 1809..
Lappland, both the swedish and finnish part..should be inhabited by Sapmis..

There still need to be provinces there

The categorizing into the various countries are based partly on what the countries had back then, and partly on what they got later... I agree that many provinces should be inhabited by "natives", like the nothern provinces (like Lappland, Norrbotten, Finnmark etc) by Finns/Kvens/Samis.

Sweden
addition to Havards list
- Västerbotten (including Norrbotten)
- Medelpad
- Ångermanland
- Småland (could be separated into the "folklands" of Njudung, Värend, Tjust, Finnveden, Aspeland, Tjust, Möre et cetera)

I had listed Medelpad/Ångermanland together. Is there a justification for splitting up this much back then? I was thinking more of grouping Hälsingland/Gästrikland actually...

 

[Idiotboy]

Originally posted by Vandelay


It seems that everyone has chosen to use the "landskap" as the basic "province" unit for Sweden. Another path would be to use the "län" instead. IMHO for Sweden the first half of the game (up to about 1300) the "landskap" should be used, but after that the "län" - but the game engine probably can´t handle it (although a dynamic map would be supercool!!!).

Hmm good thinking. Although I would argue that the usage of Län didn´t really become primary until the centralization started in the 16th century after we booted out the danish. They existed yes but the län IIRC was created as a better administrative "unit" so to speak and the central power was to weak up til then to make much out of it.

 

[Vandelay]

Hmm good thinking. Although I would argue that the usage of Län didn´t really become primary until the centralization started in the 16th century after we booted out the danish. They existed yes but the län IIRC was created as a better administrative "unit" so to speak and the central power was to weak up til then to make much out of it.

"Län" (in extant medieval texts translated from Swedish to latin as feudum) were introduced in the the 1200´s and can be seen as a direct influence from the truly feudal Europe (note the proximity in date to the introduction in Sweden of a feudal noble warrior class Knights/ Milites in 1279). As such they fit much better in CK than the pre-feudal "landskap" (since CK is a "feudal" game engine).

Even so Sweden (and Norway, I think) were never truly feudalized (unlike Denmark) and will be difficult to simulate in the CK engine (from what Paradox has revealed so far about the CK game engine) - e.g. neither the "län" nor the "landskap" were ever ruled by hereditary "dynasts", which seems to be what the CK engine is all about.

Have to go to bed - will be happy to further continue the discussion tomorrow.

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

[Idiotboy]

Perhaps not. Landskap was more like small kingdoms so to speak just without kings. However one might still remember how people identified themselves for a long time. And it wasn´t belonging to a specific län. Who you were was from what landskap you were from. I would say that the relative importance of the landskap "unit" for political reasons was declining for a long time and was broken with the Kalmar union. Still it wasn´t completely gone, just it´s importance for the purpose of nobility and politics was mostly non-existant. The reasons why I downplay the Län is that the feudalism was as you say not all that important in Sweden and the following centuries was very turbulent internally for long periods of time which made any new structures hard to really replace old ones as is seen by how the common man indentified himself.

 

[unmerged(1057)]

Originally posted by Havard

Should Åland be a province?


There still need to be provinces there

The categorizing into the various countries are based partly on what the countries had back then, and partly on what they got later... I agree that many provinces should be inhabited by "natives", like the nothern provinces (like Lappland, Norrbotten, Finnmark etc) by Finns/Kvens/Samis.


I had listed Medelpad/Ångermanland together. Is there a justification for splitting up this much back then? I was thinking more of grouping Hälsingland/Gästrikland actually...

Yes, Åland should be a (swedish) province..

About splitting and grouping: As early as 1066 there was no "provinces" at all, but for gamepurposes there should be..
Perhaps "Storhälsingland", consisting of all landskaps north of Gästrikland in Sweden (Gästrikl, Hälsingl, Medelp, Ångerm, Västerbotten) would be more justified then..?