Thessalonike, way too poor...

[gweinel]

Thessalonike, way too poor! (historical bug?)

The county of Thessalonike of Byz's should be richer. It is I think the poorest province of Byzantine balkans, something that it was not true. Its main city Thessalonike was refered as the town that regned jointly with Constantinopole. Of course this is not true, but gives the importance of the city (and the province of course). In 1.01 has income only of 1! I hope it get fixed!

 

[unmerged(8913)]

To add further support - according to Treadgold, in A History of Byzantine State and Society, Thessalonica would have been the second largest/richest city in the Empire at the start of the game (second to Constantinople, of course ). I can look at his exact words, if need be...

 

[gweinel]

Thank you Marcus Valerius!
To add more, the walls of Thessaloniki was one of the mightest of the Empire. They were built by emperor Theodosius (the same who made the walls of Constantinopole) and were enforced by the sea after that sacking of the Saracens at 10th century.

Also at 1064 -1065 Macedonia and Thessaly were raided by Ouzous(sp)(Cumans). They pillaged these two provinces but could not breach Thessaloniki. So if some provinces in the area must be poor, these should be around Thessaloniki and not Thessaloniki itself. For example Chalkidike has income of 3 whereas Thessaloniki has 1!

 

[gweinel]

Just to back up my previous informations. References I took from History of Byzantine State by G. Ostrogorsky (greek edition) and Historu of Thessalonike by Apostolos Papagianopoulos (greek too).

 

[gweinel]

There is a site that has the history of Greece (ancient, byzantine, modern). It is goverment supported and it is also in English. It has bibliography (sources) in every section.

A note before. In the site there is an idirect way to understand the importance of Thessaloniki in Byzantine Empire. In the timeline, almost the only city except Constantinopole that refers for various reasons (culturals, sieges, etc. is Thessaloniki)

- About the walls of Thessaloniki. http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/08/en/k/index.html then go timeline. It says:
380: Thessalonica fortified by walls of power and beauty similar to those of Constantinople, which survive restored nowadays

- About the importance of Thessaloniki. Comparison with Constantinopole. http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/10/en/k/kb/kb2b.html http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/10/en/k/kb/kb2a.html
http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/08/en/k/index.html
http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/10/en/k/ka/ka5c.html not excatly comparison but it shows that Thessaloniki was the second most important city at 1350's

http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/09/en/k/1081/main/k14b.html about the trade festival in Thessaloniki and how Thessaloniki ws known by it in all over the world.
http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/09/en/k/867/main/k7.html How Thessaloniki was one of the bigest cities in the Empire after Constantinopole. (the other cities that mentions is in Asia Minor)
http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/09/en/k/1081/main/k16b.html About the dynamic of Thessaloniki.

Well that's for now... I am sure that I will find many more sources in Thessaloniki's History Center (link below) but I find unlikely to have anything online. Maybe I ll find ruling families relatives, CoA/Banners (the curent ones in the game aren't correct). Are you interested if I find anything? Although I say again there aren't many possibilities to back these... maybe pictures from a scanner.
http://www.thessalonikicity.gr/English/History_Center/kentro-istorias.htm

 

[Grosshaus]

How much richer?

 

[gweinel]

Starting as Byzantine Empire I checked all provinces base income. There are six much or less diferent base income for the provinces. 0.60 , 1,20 , 1,80 , 2,40 , 3,01 and 3,60.
There several provinces with 3,60 and 3,00 and I think one of these, should be the base income for Thessaloniki.

Also the castle might be stronger (from hill fort to small castle). I noticed that there are several provinces st the beggining with small castle...

Finally, something important that wasn't mentioned before, Thessaloniki wasn't in any way vassal to Athens. Thessaloniki itself was so important that was a "thema". Only two cities in the empire was also and "themata": Constantinopole and Thessaloniki.

Tomorrow will go to search to find infos about the rulers that time and (if i am very lucky) a banner or a flag.

PS. The base income of Chalkidike(3,13) seems to me ridicoulous big. Chalkidike wasn't a rich country. I see that is considered rich because of the monasteries of Mt Athos but in reality the richness of the monasteries never contributed to the richness of the province and the emperor. Maybe it should add piety and not gold...

 

[Belissarius]

/snip

Tomorrow will go to search to find infos about the rulers that time and (if i am very lucky) a banner or a flag.
/snip

One thing to remember about banners in the game is that they dont use the historical one always. The reason for this is to provide stability for a highly unstable situation. Many coa were the same from one noble to the next (thats would cause confussion with players) And a counties banenr changed when the noble changed many times over the time period leading to many banners being used for a given area.

So paradox has choosen to use a nobles banner for a given area when that noble/family controlled that area for teh timeperiod or for most of the time period or they choose a panner for the major city of the province or some other FIXED point in the province. Or they make one up. They may have to make one up as its a duplicate of another banner in the game. So when you are looking for a banner try to find one thats tied to geography.

I beleive paradox did the right thing here because banners for counties changed so often and many nobles used the same one and the coventions for heraldy werent formalised during this time period either, so its imposible to provide a perfectly historicaly accurate banner system and still remove all confusion. I do think they have to do better for many of the byzantium banners as the few screenies i've seen of the area have banners that look near identical with only slight colouring differences making things look confussing.

I just thought I'd inform you to why the banner maybe wrong or why the one you find isnt used.

 

[gweinel]

One thing to remember about banners in the game is that they dont use the historical one always. The reason for this is to provide stability for a highly unstable situation. Many coa were the same from one noble to the next (thats would cause confussion with players) And a counties banenr changed when the noble changed many times over the time period leading to many banners being used for a given area.

So paradox has choosen to use a nobles banner for a given area when that noble/family controlled that area for teh timeperiod or for most of the time period or they choose a panner for the major city of the province or some other FIXED point in the province. Or they make one up. They may have to make one up as its a duplicate of another banner in the game. So when you are looking for a banner try to find one thats tied to geography.

I beleive paradox did the right thing here because banners for counties changed so often and many nobles used the same one and the coventions for heraldy werent formalised during this time period either, so its imposible to provide a perfectly historicaly accurate banner system and still remove all confusion. I do think they have to do better for many of the byzantium banners as the few screenies i've seen of the area have banners that look near identical with only slight colouring differences making things look confussing.

I just thought I'd inform you to why the banner maybe wrong or why the one you find isnt used.

Yes, I know of that and I will have that in mind.

You that the current banner of the principality of Thessalonike is the same banner of the count of Monferat? Of course this historical accurate since form 1204 to 1229 i think the count of Monferat was also the King of Thessalonike... But i say that because in game the flag of the Prince of Thessalonike is the same that of Monferat, which contradicts a bit with the previous...


Thank you for the reminder

 

[Demetrios]

Starting as Byzantine Empire I checked all provinces base income. There are six much or less diferent base income for the provinces. 0.60 , 1,20 , 1,80 , 2,40 , 3,01 and 3,60.
There several provinces with 3,60 and 3,00 and I think one of these, should be the base income for Thessaloniki.

Also the castle might be stronger (from hill fort to small castle). I noticed that there are several provinces st the beggining with small castle...

Finally, something important that wasn't mentioned before, Thessaloniki wasn't in any way vassal to Athens. Thessaloniki itself was so important that was a "thema". Only two cities in the empire was also and "themata": Constantinopole and Thessaloniki.

Tomorrow will go to search to find infos about the rulers that time and (if i am very lucky) a banner or a flag.

PS. The base income of Chalkidike(3,13) seems to me ridicoulous big. Chalkidike wasn't a rich country. I see that is considered rich because of the monasteries of Mt Athos but in reality the richness of the monasteries never contributed to the richness of the province and the emperor. Maybe it should add piety and not gold...

So basically, it would seem reasonable to you for the base incomes of Thessalonike and Chalkidike provinces to be switched with each other?

 

[Hagie Sophia]

Everthing I've read says that Thessalonike was the "second city" of the Empire, so while I'm not sure of the exact amount of wealth increase it should have, I'm thinking it should be second only to Constantinople itself. If the capital is a 3.5 or so, this one should be a 3 or 2.5 or so.

 

[gweinel]

So basically, it would seem reasonable to you for the base incomes of Thessalonike and Chalkidike provinces to be switched with each other?

Yes I think it would be ideal. This solution doesn't hurt the base income balance of the area.

The second major problem of Thessalonike is that is a vassal of another liege except the Emperor. Since Thessalonike itself (and the area around it) was one of the "themata" then imho deserves an independance of the prince of Hellas.

Thanks!

 

[gweinel]

I found some infos. Not 100% what we need but close enough.

1) I found the lord of Thessalonike at 1081. His name was Nicephoros Melissinos and was a cousin to emperor Alexius Comnenos. The book also states that his dynasty ruled for many years.

2) I found the description of a banner that had Thessalonike at 12th and 13th century. It states: It is a gate with a triangle gable on its top. Right and left are two towers with battlements. In the botom of the banner it is written +CIVITAS THESSALONIKI-CARUM
When the latins came, they kept the banner and add at the other side Boniface to ride a horse.
When the latins were gone the banner changes a little. It has the previous gate to be kept by St. Demetrios and emperor Manuel Paleologo.
Just to note the gate represents the city of Thessalonike.

It states nothing about the backround of the banner but I would suggest gold (as it is the backround in the mosaics of the byzantine churches), or dark-lush red aka porphyra (royal colour of the macedonian dynasty, though the Ducas are a different dynasty, i find very possible to have such a color), or a rich blue (a typical royal color). From these three backround colors I would prefer the red and the gold and from the last two probably the gold.

The source is a book from the University of Ionnina and tomorrow I will have a photocopy of it. To verify what I am saying I can scan these parts and give it to you. The only difficult part is that is written in greek. So someone who knows greek can verify what i am saying.

Demetrios always had a notion that you know greek (probably is the name ). (Btw St. Demetrios also is the Saint protector of Thessalonike)

Tomorrow I 'll post the scans.

Is anything else that is needed to be done by me?

Thanks for the patiance

PS. In a previous post I said that Thessalonike was one of the “themata” Here is a link that back it up: http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/09/en/p/610/main/p4a.html
Also there an encyclopaedia link that states that Thessaloniki was the second after Constantinopole. http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/T/Thesslnk-history.html

 

[gweinel]

Ok, I have copy of the book. Here it is a scan of the cover.

. It says it is grom University of Ioannina, Philosophical department. It's title is "Byzantine Thessaloniki, Space and Ideaology" by Aggeliki Konstantakopoulou, 1996

Here is the part that says Nicephorous Melissinos was Duke of Thessaloniki from 1081 - 1119

Here is the part that says the *first* known banner of Thessaloniki was a gate with a triangle gable on its top. Right and left are two towers with battlements. In the botom of the banner it is written +CIVITAS THESSALONIKI-CARUM. {IMG}http://E:\Documents and Settings\Κωνσταντινος\Επιφάνεια εργασίας\first banner1.jpg{/IMG}

I know it is not the perfect solution, but I think it is the better i can do at least since Monday...

I hope of course someone to be able to read greek in order to verify what i am saying.

Ps edit: Damn it seems If can't post image from my computer... Is anyone is interested to verify the things I said and knows greek I ll gladly to send these. Of course if one of the mods know or have a friend who knows greek i ll send them too.

 

[gweinel]

Having made several attempts to make the images of the book posted and failed, I propose (and pleade) if anyone have little space in his site to host the images for a short time I would be very grateful.

Though my research for that period isn't finished yet, I would say that it is unlikely to find the ruler that time. As for the flag/CoA the book clearly states that is the first time a flag of Thessalonike is mentioned.

Btw do you want to find informations about the other two scenarios?

 

[gweinel]

I find a link that states Thessaloniki was a douchy and not a county. http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/p369.htm#i22527

I also found the duke of Thessaloniki until 1054. According to the prevous site the Andronikos Rhodocanakis was a duke of Thessalonike until 1054. Also his father was ruler of the city. So, they were actually a smalll dynasty.
The site has infrmations of various nobles of Byzantine Empire of that time.

Hope it helps!

 

[gweinel]

I had found the ruler of the Thessalonike at 1062 and an indication that had ruled for many years, it is "Nikitas Xifilinos" and was mention in a letter from Constantinopole to him... The book that I found it was in greek. It is called "Byzantine Studies" by S. Kyriakidou, 1928.

 

[Cat Lord]

This is a copy from the thread in the bug forum, and is a very good basis for a mod in the Thessalonike area, thanks to the work done by Konstantine.

Enjoy !

Cat