Tinto Maps #13 Maghreb Feedback

[Pavía]

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Maps Feedback post! A bit later than usual, but better late than never, I guess.Today we will be taking a review of the Maghreb. Let's start with the list of changes, as usual:

Spoiler: List of changes

ADDITIONS

Added the following:

• Locations (54+ 17 Lakes + lots Wastelands)
  • Afso
  • Aït Benhaddou
  • Aïn Madhi
  • Aït Daoud
  • Al Jamah
  • Al-Kadwa
  • Al-Khadra
  • Amdoukal
  • Azilal
  • Bejaâd
  • Berriane
  • Bir el Alter
  • Brézina
  • Charef
  • Charouine
  • Chenini
  • Chichaoua
  • Debila
  • Douz
  • Drâa
  • Echemmaia
  • El Abiodh Sidi Cheikh
  • El Agheila
  • El Ksour
  • Foum Zguid
  • Guettara
  • Ifrane
  • Igli
  • Jadu
  • Kallat Sraghna
  • Ksar el Boukhari
  • Medjez El Bab
  • Medrissa
  • Messaâd
  • Midelt
  • Nefta
  • N'Goussa
  • Ouled Djellal
  • Ras al-Ain
  • Ras Lanuf
  • Sbikha
  • Sidi Bennour
  • Sinawin
  • Taghit
  • Tarhuna
  • Tata
  • Tawurgha
  • Tegeget
  • Tekouch
  • Tissemsilt
  • Tissint
  • Tizounine
  • Yafran
  • Zintan
• Lakes
  • Chott El Gharsah
  • Chott el Hodna
  • Chott Tinsilt
  • Lake Fetzara
  • Lake Ichkeul
  • Mellahet El Brega
  • Sebkhat Cherita
  • Sebkhat Guerrah Et Tarf
  • Sebkhat El Ghorra
  • Sebkhat El Melah
  • Sebkhat En Noual
  • Sebkhat Kelbia
  • Sebkhat of Oran
  • Sebkhat Sidi El Hani
  • Sebkhat Sokhna
  • Sebkhat Zehrez Chergui
  • Sebkhat Zehrez Gharbi
• Wastelands
  • Divided many Wastelands into more pieces.
• TAGs
  • Banu Tellis
  • Djerids
  • Gabès
  • Gafsa
  • Mzab
  • Ouargla
  • Tafilalt
  • Touggourt
  • Zab
• Characters
  • btl_ahmad_bin_tellis
  • btl_ali_bin_ahmad
  • btl_ali_bin_galib
  • btl_galib_bin_ali
  • fza_ali_nasur
  • gbs_makki
  • gbs_ahmed_ibn_makki
  • mor_abu_ali_omar
  • trp_muhammad_ibn_thabit
  • trp_thabit_ibn_ammar
  • trp_thabit_ibn_muhammad
  • zab_ahmad_bin_yusuf
  • zab_al_fadl_bin_ali_bin_ahmed_bin_al_hassan_bin_ali_bin_muzni
  • zab_mansur_bin_fadl
  • zab_yusuf_bin_mansur
• Dynamic Names
  • Added some Dynamic Names for Arabic, Tamazight and Spanish languages

CORRECTIONS

Renamed the following:

• Locations (only corrections. Additionally renamed all locations to standardized form):
  • Arrecife to Teguise
  • As-Sawira to Mogador
  • Betancuria to Maxorata
  • Las Palmas de Gran Canaria to Tamaraceite
  • Ouadane to Wadan
  • Remla to Sidi Fredj
  • Santa Cruz de la Gomera to Hipalán
  • Santa Cruz de la Palma to Tedote
  • Santa Cruz de Tenerife to Aguere
  • Tazhouda to Ras Kebdana
  • Ž-Ždīda to Mazaghan

Cultures

• Renamed Berber culture group to Amazigh
• Renamed Berber language to Tamazight
• Renamed Kabylian culture to Kabyle

Raw Goods

• Changed several Raw Goods as suggested

Terrain and Vegetation

• Total Review

Locations

• Redrew several Locations

Countries:

Morocco and Tunis have been split into several countries, while Fezzan is now a vassal of the Empire of Kanem although we have to improve how that is shown with the default map settings).

Dynasties:

Locations:

The locations of the region, plus the bonus track of the Canary Island renaming.

Provinces:

Areas:

Terrain:

Tons of changes!

Development:

New map!

Harbors:

Another new map! This one needs a bit of love, so feedback is pretty well welcomed, as usual!

Cultures:

Some distribution changes in the cultures of the region, although there's some more work on minorities remaining, when we fix the couple of issues pending with our pop editor.

Languages:

New map, and new language name, Tamazight!

Religions:

Raw Materials:

Lots of changes!

And that's all for today! Remember that this Friday we will start with our new series, Tinto Flavour! See you then!

 

[Pavía]

mfw north Africa has more farmlands than Georgia

Some of the North African lands are quite fertile. Also, we haven't yet reviewed the Caucasus.

 

[Pavía]

where is the culture, pop and religion map mode of the levant?

They will be posted when available on the Feedback thread.

 

[Pavía]

whats the next feedback? you havent said

Not yet decided, nor the date.

 

[Pavía]

Nice

Please, could you also post the political maps without overlord colours? Maybe the second map with coloured wastelands could be also with all the tags having their generic colours.

Thanks!

Good point, I'm maybe too used to the default modes:

 

[Pavía]

I like the political map changes, new locations and the renaming of El Jadida and Essaouira Some minor points

• To my understanding Walili (Volubilis) was basically abandoned at this point, and the nearby Moulay Idriss Zerhoun would make a better choice for the location.
• Technically it should be Buja'd, not Buj'ad.
• Shouldn't Zuwarah be majority Eastern Berber?
• Did Ibadism really exist among all Amazigh of Libya, instead of just the Mozabites, Djerba and the Nafusa mountains? Seeming them in Fezzan is surprising.
• Still need to make Jarsif into Garsif/Guercif.
• And still think the Chaus province should be Haouz.
• Your Arabic transliteration is still very inconsistent.

Forwarding most to my team, but some quick replies:
4. We still have some Religious minorities work pending, it might depend on that.
7. We have the standardized Arabic transliteration review of the region still pending, so expect a few changes on that.

 

[Pavía]

The ruler of Tunis in this time period had the title of Caliph, will this be represented through a decision like in Eu4 or are there mechanics related to the Hafsid Caliphate?

We need to polish a bit of how the Caliphate/s will work, will talk about that in a future Tinto Talks.

 

[Pavía]

What about the remnants of Fezzan in Egypt, do they still exist now that Fezzan is no longer in North Africa?

Wait, Fezzan still exists, but it's a vassal of Kanem:

Correcting in the post. I'll also talk with our UI team, so we make it more evident in the default map settings.

 

[Pavía]

 

[Pavía]

View attachment 1240681
How will these multi-corridors get coloured in game?

We're thinking about a couple of solutions, but we yet to have to implement the final one.

 

[Pavía]

Some of the provinces in the Sahara like Mazab seem to be cut off from each other. It has some extra corridors in it. It is on both sides of gourara.

Noticed, and reported, will be fixed soon.

 

[Pavía]

View attachment 1240686

What is this?

Something Johan will talk about tomorrow.

 

[Pavía]

Not sure if this is the right feedback post for it, but in the SOP world map shared yesterday the Canary Islands are yellow, have there been Guanche SOP(s?) added?

Yes!:

 

[Pavía]

What type of government is Mzab? Since it wasn't a monarchy historically

Monarchy... Which one would you suggest?

 

[Pavía]

Is the Sahara a region in game or is it split between different regions?

Split ATM.

 

[Pavía]

when do you think itll be available?

When I'm sure about the dates, I post them; when I'm not, I don't.

 

[Pavía]

Looking at the map of Arabia, one big inaccuracy I think was missed is that the Bani Yas tribal confederacy should not exist yet in 1337. In actuality this was not formed until the late 17th Century and these provinces should be empty.

What today is the United Arab Emirates in 1337 was partly controlled by the Kingdom of Hormuz but otherwise was divided between smaller tribes. No large tribal confederacy existed here. The successor to the Jarwanids, the Jabrids would subjugate the region later on around the year 1450. Until then though it seems that there was no tribe with definitive control over the whole region.

Post it in the Arabian Tinto Maps, please.

 

[Pavía]

Thanks for yall's efforts!

Yet I'm very confused by the "cold arid"-assignment in the Maghreb region, since "cold arid" means icy cold, which definitely can only apply to the Sahara Dessert at night and cold months.

For example, the coldest region during winter time in Morocco is definitely the region around Tangier, Tetouan, Rabat and slighty Al Hoceima. But these times are by far not cold enough to be declared as "cold arid". I think we can agree on the fact that the region of The Great Horde is by far colder than the one in the Maghreb, yet both got declared as "cold arid"?

The Rif-Region is primarly declared as "cold arid", yet I think it should be, like in EU4, be Dryland with warm climate since this how it is literally in real life, so Mediterranean would be way more accurate, since only smaller regions within the Rif-Region are arid (characteristics of coastal regions).

Similar to Tunis, there is way too much "cold arid" environment.

In the northern bits of Morocco (especially Rif-Region --> north-east Morocco) should be more wheat distributed. Even people from French came to Morocco to buy out all fertile land because they knew how fertile these lands were, which made it very hard for local farmers to keep their sovereignty. Also, before the Rif-Wars (1921-1926) the lands were very fertile, but since then after the spanish used extremely toxic gases (highest amount used in a small area known in modern history) to enforce their demands the ground got contaminated and infertile.

The distribution is a minor aspect, but the "cold arid"-assignment should be definitely overthought since it really makes little sense to me. The temperature in these regions definitely do NOT fall below 0 and do not get nearly as cold as in The Great Horde. ESPECIALLY in the big northern-east region of Morocco. These are still warm regions, definitely.

This is my view on the Terrain assignment. I hope I was somehow a help and would love to talk more about this!

View attachment 1240710

Cold Arid mostly identifies the Köppen-Trewartha BWK climate, 'Cold Desert climates': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_climate#Cold_desert_climates

We´re using the 1901-1925 dataset as a reference, as suggested when we started with Tinto Maps by @Sulphurologist , as apparently, it's the closer climate dataset to that of existing in 1337. This climate dataset is not the same as that we're experiencing nowadays.

 

[Pavía]

Is this a Y?View attachment 1240718

No, it's a letter of its own used in Tamazight languages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_fricative

Although we're currently evaluating changing it for a ğ, as it could be a better compromise between linguistical accuracy and in-game readability:

 

[Pavía]

@Pavia is it possible if we can get a look at the areas south of Morocco in the Sahara or is that for another feedback map like West Africa?

We will finish the Saharan connectors review with the West African map review.