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You've never had to deal with the horrors of gavelkind getting ready to split the realm when a Crusade is already underway.

I remember my first game of CK2 back in the days you could assasinate people. I started as the Duke of Salerno, i had 4 sons by my characters first wife but when she died i decided to get a new one who turned out to be the sister of the King of Castile. several years passed and due to me being a noob i didn't realize that my 1 son by my 2nd wife would get a claim on a Kingdom that controlled most of Spain until i was old. So what did i do? I only slaughtered my 2nd wife and 4 eldest sons and 2 grandsons, invade my Brother in law take his lands and put his head on a pike.

It still haunts me to this day.

So compared to me Stannis is practically a good father.
 
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My only problem with Stannis burning his daughter was the lack of setup. Shireen's death was heavily foreshadowed, but the last Stannis scene was telling Mel to GTFO about his little girl. Suddenly, boom, lots of horse meat and grouchy soldiers and let's gather the kindling. Great acting from everyone, but I would've loved one or two additional scenes where the soldiers are resorting to cannibalism, Stannis struggling, etc. This dude stuck out at Storm's End for a year. Maybe it could've been implied that starvation experience deeply traumatized him and thus he is more likely to hit the nuclear option...but that was never remotely suggested.

My biggest, most shit-losing moment was by far Sansa being raped by Ramsay. It chucked out three seasons of character development and turned her once more into a sobbing victim. Ugh! I liked the idea of marrying into the Boltons, but they've set Sansa up as coming into her own, being used to psychos, and having hung out with master manipulators. I thought she was filing away all the menacing hints Myranda was throwing her way, picking up that Ramsay's into kinky shit, and thus after the wedding she'd let her freak flag fly and put all her knowledge to good use--clearly disliking him, but putting on her game face to keep some sense of agency.
 
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Were on the 3rd page of the thread i think we can assume everyone here has watched up to episode 9 and knows what we are on about.

In response to Pheonixflame

I am glade someone else shares my view that Sansa being raped was the most NO!!!!! moment in the season, but i disagree about it chucking out 3 seasons of character development (i think they went about it the wrong way sending Sansa to the North though). My view of it was that though she may have been on guard and tried to prepare for it you can't forget it was her first time so it would have made no sense if she could bend him to her will through kinkiness (where would she even have learnt it anyway). And from what she had seen of Ramsey she may have assumed that he would have been gentle instead of what he was actually like. Also though Sansa may be used to phycos she has allways up until Winterfell had people looking out for her with the power to intervene if they went too far e.g. The Hound and Tyrion against Joffery and Littlefinger against Lysa.

I think she will come into her own in the next episode now that she knows about Bran and Rickon, if a few things i have read online she may be given the core elements of the

"Lady Stoneheart plot probably brought on by Stannis sacrificing Shireen"

But in this case instead of Freys it will be Boltons who she will be killing.
 
But in this case instead of Freys it will be Boltons who she will be killing.

There isn't enough insignificant Boltons for Sansa to kill, though. None, in fact. The only Boltons she can murder aren't Boltons at all, but Bolton men, a.k.a Northmen who's only crimes were doing what Roose couldn't (staying true to their liege lord). Simply killing men for revenge is Arya's game. If Sansa is to become LS, she will have to do something crazy like RW 2.0 - atleast in my opinion.
 
There isn't enough insignificant Boltons for Sansa to kill, though. None, in fact. The only Boltons she can murder aren't Boltons at all, but Bolton men, a.k.a Northmen who's only crimes were doing what Roose couldn't (staying true to their liege lord). Simply killing men for revenge is Arya's game. If Sansa is to become LS, she will have to do something crazy like RW 2.0 - atleast in my opinion.

In this case i was referring to the two Boltons she happens to share a castle with.
 
Infanticide is a necessary evil, unless you want inbred/imbecile children

What the hell do your kids do with each other? I mean, In a decent amount of playthroughs, I mainly get Club foot/hunchback kids, but I've only gotten one inbred Nephew in a game before, and that was because I didn't realize I married one of my children off to the same branch of Karling for every other generation for 5 generations before marrying a descendant myself. lol To be completely honest, in most of my time playing as my games, I very rarely have any children with birth defects.... Oh, well I do seem to get a midget every so many generations, typically once or twice in a game.


I'm not saying that none of my kids have ever died mind you, but outside of 'Death by Disease' it typically seems like my wives or other children end up killing them off. Even on my favorite character (Who was a badass Varagian Norse Viking) who would have most definitely killed his own kids if he had need to, didn't kill any of his kids (Though, he never had reason too). We're talking about the 4th son in a line of vikings who killed his brothers till he became my heir here btw. lol
 
You've never had to deal with the horrors of gavelkind getting ready to split the realm when a Crusade is already underway.

I have, but when that comes along I typically don't expect to die so I don't expect to need to do so. And if I do expect to die, I already only have one kingdom (I've gotten good at getting a kingdom in most of my standard start out areas) to allow my heir to be powerful, or we have a "Charlemagne" moment where 'I' die and my heir kills my other sons through various plots to unite the land.
 
Personally i don't think Selyse's last minute change of heart should change how we see her, she has been hating on that certain character* from day one even with the change of heart it was her fault..

Well when I say she earned some respect I feel like I should point out it wasn't a lot. lol

I'll try to explain myself a little bit I suppose. Now, before this event happened and she had her 'change of heart' moment, I kind of thought of her as a bland 'I'm a religious zealot, bluarg" character with no really fleshing out.

But, after watching that scene I stopped and had a moment of realization. I'm a person who has worked, studied, and read on "Relationship Science" (Yes, it's a thing) and I recall reading an article (You'll have to forgive me, as I don't have the article at hand to share as a reference) that discussed how women seem to take upon more traits shared with a man after sleeping with them, and the more men they sleep with, the more varying traits they receive will be (which caused the commen saying "Bitches be crazy") which will become more relevant as I go on later.

Keeping that in mind, we have seen that in GoT, as well as our own real world history, that they value female virginity as far as weddings go. IF you're not a virgin, you're not getting married, or you're considered married to whomever took your virginity. we've seen this as far as the many marriages that Margery has had in the past, since they have used the fact that her virginity was intact to allow her to marry first Joffery, then Tommen. So, using this knowledge of their society Selyse was most likely a virgin upon Marrying Stannis.

Now, as we have all scene both in the show, and even the book (I'm in the 600pg range of the 'Game of Thrones' book) Stannis is very dutiful to his position, often times making choices he wouldn't on a moral ground but as his duty he would and should. Now, what I'm about to say would paint the picture that I should approve of Stannis' actions, but I still don't.

But time and time again we see how Selyse talks about how she failed in her duty to give Stannis sons, How she was so quick to embrace her new religion (As it's her position to do so in most cultures), how she kept talking about the various things he should do to achieve his goals, being very supportive to him all the way and trying to be his guide but at a lesser extent of what Mel is doing. So, it's very clear she's dutiful as well (Which may be traits, as aforementioned, that she received from years of marriage) and she would be eager to stand by her husband's side.

Now, while all of this was part of my appiphany two days after writing this post, here is what really made me feel for her. With her new religion, Mel constantly talks about how the power of kings can do anything (To paraphrase) and how it's so powerful. We've seen this in how she "milked" stannis for his Kingly essence, how she (Mel) wanted to burn Gendry, and how she even tried to sleep with Jon Snow.

Now, we put all of this together, what do we get. It's pretty safe to assume that Selyse (Who has mentioned doing this before) had gone to Mel for council, which is comment to see that faithful people will often seek out the priests of their faith for council and advice, and, as she seems likely to do, Mel told her how powerful the Kings blood is, what she can do with it and she probably threw in something like, "The lord of Light wants you to do *Blank*" so, went and did whatever she was told to do, and talked Stannis into following Mel's orders because she knew better and it eventually lead to this.

To catch up all of what I"m trying to say is, "Selyse is just a wife, trying to be the best wife that she can because it's her "duty" to be a good wife, as it's her husband's duty to, at least try to, become king. In her attempts to do so, she kept talking to Stannis about how right Mel was in all things and what not, in an attempt to council her husband, like a "good" wife should do.... even at the end, she kept trying to be dutiful to what Stannis wanted, trying to see reason, to convince herself that it was for the greater good.

But then you see it.... a break in her duty.... a break in her shield where the dutiful zealous wife cracks and the mother reveals itself, where she screams, "I can't do this," and rushes to save her child... the only child she had been able to breath life into... to give a name to, to raise, to love and to mother.


That's why I respect the woman more than I did. I cannot say I love her as a person, but there is a respect where she was just nothing to me, outside of a minor character there for plot development sake.
 
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I've only gotten one inbred Nephew in a game before, and that was because I didn't realize I married one of my children off to the same branch of Karling for every other generation for 5 generations

Incest is Wincest

I'm not saying that none of my kids have ever died mind you, but outside of 'Death by Disease' it typically seems like my wives or other children end up killing them off. Even on my favorite character (Who was a badass Varagian Norse Viking) who would have most definitely killed his own kids if he had need to, didn't kill any of his kids (Though, he never had reason too). We're talking about the 4th son in a line of vikings who killed his brothers till he became my heir here btw. lol

I've offed many children in my time spent in CK2. I have even killed my heir for getting a lower education level upon their rise to adulthood. Long is the list of my deplorable deeds for the infanticides and kinslaying that my 1000+ hours of playing have wrought. I always make sure to tell the little buggers that if, "you disobey daddy and get that slothful trait, you're going to go to bed and never wake up, understand child o'mine?", child nods head vigorously, sweat beading off his forehead.
 
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I've offed many children in my time spent in CK2. I have even killed my heir for getting a lower education level upon their rise to adulthood. Long is the list of my deplorable deeds for the infanticides and kinslaying that my 1000+ hours of playing have wrought. I always make sure to tell the little buggers that if, "you disobey daddy and get that slothful trait, you're going to go to bed and never wake up, understand child o'mine?", child nods head vigorously, sweat beading off his forehead.

You forgot to add the obligatory "Son if your lucky and become a Just, Brave, Brilliant Strategist then you 25 years from now will be threatening to murder kids of your own understanding that its for the best"

Well when I say she earned some respect I feel like I should point out it wasn't a lot. lol

Snip

That's why I respect the woman more than I did. I cannot say I love her as a person, but there is a respect where she was just nothing to me, outside of a minor character there for plot development sake.

I will admit that article sounded very interesting. I see what you mean and will respect her for at least trying. Especially after what she did in episode 10.

Killing her self in that she just realised the madness that her sense of duty had led her to.
 
Did GRRM release some more writing? I don't remember any of this from the last book.
 
Did GRRM release some more writing? I don't remember any of this from the last book.

He has been releasing Winds of Winter previews, but a decent bit of this is not from the last bit. Due keep in mind that he had this weird split with A feast for crows and a Dance with dragons.

Warning: lots of spoilers

Sansa for example hasn't even left the Vale by the end of a dance with dragons, though that may be changing once Winds of Winter come. She is dealing with the politics there. Jayne Poole is disguised as Arya and is the one whom Ramsey marries and tortures, far worse then show sansa.

Shireen, Selyse and Mel are at the Wall, Shireen and Selyse are at castle black with little Shireen making friends with the giant Wun-Wun. Also Selyse doesn't hate Shireen as she did in the show till the end. Mel IIRC is at the Night fort doing magic stuff.

The North's politics are far more involved. You have on Stannis's side the northern clans and his own men. You got the Karstarks which are feinging loyalty to Stannis, but don't like him. Though Alys Karstark did Marry a Thenn(whom are not cannibals) On the bolton's side you got the manderlys of White Harbor which is feining loyalty but is planning on going after the boltons and the freys(who are with the the boltons). Lord Manderly even bakes 3 freys into a pie.

Add to that the battle of Ice between the Boltons and Stannis looks to be very different then the show, ie Stannis is very likely to win.

Jamie isn't at Dorn but at the riverlands helping to end the last remaning resistance and deal with bandits. This is where Brienne is. I think the Riverlands might be next season.

In Dorn the sandsnakes do try to do something but are locked in a tower shortly afterwords. Ellaria sand(Obryne's mistress) is not out for revenge in the books but the opposite. The main plot is between Doran Martell and his daughter Arianne Martell; I am really surprised they didn't have her because Arianne is cool, also HBO loves sexy times and she has a good number of sexy time scenes.

Tyrion goes to Pentos and then to Volantis, but the trip is a tad slower in the books. By the end of a Dance with dragons he is not yet at Mereen. Dany Meanwhile has a lot more politics in Mereen, dealing with the Shavepate, the Green Grace, Hizdar and more. Also Barristan is alive, while daario got captured by Yunkai I think. Anyways there looks to be a big battle of fire there, between the slavery supporters and Mereen.

Finally in Kingslanding, Margaery's crime is adultary not perjury due to the fact that she never consumated the relationship with Tomman as he is much younger in the books. Loras is not there but fighting at dragon stone where he gets boiling oil poured over his head. This was largely the same as the book.
 
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I've only found the excerpt which I think was the first. The one from Theon and Stannis.
 
What the hell do your kids do with each other? I mean, In a decent amount of playthroughs, I mainly get Club foot/hunchback kids, but I've only gotten one inbred Nephew in a game before, and that was because I didn't realize I married one of my children off to the same branch of Karling for every other generation for 5 generations before marrying a descendant myself. lol To be completely honest, in most of my time playing as my games, I very rarely have any children with birth defects.... Oh, well I do seem to get a midget every so many generations, typically once or twice in a game.

Gotta keep all the land in the family, man.
 
According to the show's writers George told them it would happen

I fully expect Shireen will burn in the books...at the hands of Melisandre, not Stannis, and without his knowledge or consent. Book!Stannis is in zero position to burn Shireen at the moment even if he's still alive and willing to do it.

The simple reality is David Benioff and Dan Weiss have always really seemed to hate Stannis for some reason. They've rarely missed an opportunity to make him more straightforwardly villainous than his book counterpart. This is just the culmination of that process.
 
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I fully expect Shireen will burn in the books...at the hands of Melisandre, not Stannis, and without his knowledge or consent. Book!Stannis is in zero position to burn Shireen at the moment even if he's still alive and willing to do it.

The simple reality is David Benioff and Dan Weiss have always really seemed to hate Stannis for some reason. They've rarely missed an opportunity to make him more straightforwardly villainous than his book counterpart. This is just the culmination of that process.

There might not be a reason for it, some people just don't like some people or characters for no real reason. Personally I don't either version of Stannis, the magic Melisandre gives him is cheating plus they might have indirectly killed Robb with the leeches.