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GurenGaaze

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So I started wondering how Europe, the part that was under Roman rule at least, would look like if the terrain looked more like China? With less big mountains, would these lands be more united like China was? in that a large united group stayed united? (like Han Chinese) The reason i'm mentioning only Europe and not all of Rome's holdings, is because there was a large sea in between them, splitting them up.
But I keep wondering... would this have united the people on the continent more as one whole group (Romans) like the Han Chinese was united? Would this possibly have led to higher chances of the empire's survival in one way or another? (Ethnic groups)

I only just read about how the united chinese become united, was because of their terrain... their rivers and fertile land with no mountains splitting them up. If Rome was like this as well... would we have more of a united Roman group?
(Idk, there may be important stuff that I haven't even considered yet?)
Europa Roma.PNG
 
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Mountains splitting them up didn’t stop Iberia, Gaul, the Balkans, etc. from being romanized. The sea made long distance trade easier and North Africa appears to have been romanized as well. Once the empire was broken and trade diminished the geography probably did play an important part in helping the cultures drift apart. As barriers to armies they also complicated later attempts to reunify.
 
So you mean that, under one central government geography doesn't play that important of a role (unless it's a whole world apart), but once splitted up, these geographies may force cultures to drift further apart?
Under Roman rule these didn't play a large factor (Thinking empire era, where they have been under roman rule for a long time) but because of these geographies, once conquered, there was no way they (people) could continue "to be one"? And it also made it harder to reconquer said land for any who wished to do so. So it was only natural to split apart?

So if these mountains / or other geographies wasnt there or were better, then it wouldt really change the course of history, but the people would continue to exist like the Chinese did under Mongol rule?

I feel like I just rambled on with this, but I hope you understand what I meant.
 
In general, until you get to the very modern period (basically the 20th century), seas and rivers are more of a connection than land is. Transporting goods overland before railroads is really slow compared to water transport. The problem for Rome wasn't the Mediterranean, and was only somewhat the mountains; it was mainly all that land in Europe. It's not a coincidence that they focused on the Mediterranean first, and only moved into inland Gaul under Julius Caesar.

China (at least the core lands that we really mean when we talk about "China" historically) is basically a couple of huge river valleys (Yellow and Yangtze) and their tributaries. Those are obvious targets for would-be unifiers, and once you unify one and then conquer the other, you have enough population and economics to dominate the surrounding countryside. There's a reason that whenever China was divided (e.g. the later Song, or the Northern and Southern dynasties period), you tended to see a division between north and south; with one state or set of states controlling the Yellow river valley, and the other(s) controlling the Yangtze. It's not until the Qing dynasties launched various campaigns in the steppe and the mountains that the areas outside that core really get solidly incorporated into "China," and its worth noting that those campaigns required years of preparation and massive expenditures.

In contrast, Europe has all sorts of unconnected river systems, none of which are at that scale. Each of those is a potential state or set of states in its own right, but none of them are large enough to dominate the region, and the lack of connections means that they have difficulty projecting power outside their region. So each attempt to expand outside your region is going to be a massive, difficult and expensive undertaking, and even when you win you aren't getting enough benefit to be able to really snowball.

Mountains further complicate that issue (crossing e.g. the Alps with a large army was a significant feat), but only to further separate certain areas (e.g. Iberia and Italy).

Your best bet for a "Roman heartland" like the Chinese one that keeps reunifying is actually one centered on the Mediterranean.
 
I see... I'm just going to explain why I'm asking in the first place, so I don't ask around the subject but rather on it. With a risk of uneccecary complicating things.
It's a kind of somewhat a alternative history I suppose.

I thought that, if these areas (that I showed in the picture) had less mountains in it, and by your theory, let's say the sea from Epirus to Venice was more of a large river. And Sardinia isles were connected to both Iberia and Italy in a landmass, but having one or two huge rivers there as well. And the Rhine and Danube rivers were more large seas (like in the mediterranean I suppose) there were a stronger natural barrier, thus the migration never happened, and I thought it might be a big enough barrier to hinder Rome in expanding beyond it, at least in this early era. And Rome would then survive and be more united as a people and a whole.

Basicly I thought Rome in Europe acted like the Chinese did, with no interest beyond their own close lands, but were immensively powerful. But they survived the test of time, where in our timeline, they didn't.

I know this isn't really historical, but an alternative route, based on historical events (and realistic geogrophy) and not even sure if I could ask this here, but figured I'd do it anyway.
 
So if these mountains / or other geographies wasnt there or were better, then it wouldt really change the course of history, but the people would continue to exist like the Chinese did under Mongol rule?

Romans continued to exist under and after barbarian rule. We just call them Italians now. Please don't buy into the "China is the only extant continuous civilisation" crap. It's bollocks.
 
Romans continued to exist under and after barbarian rule. We just call them Italians now. Please don't buy into the "China is the only extant continuous civilisation" crap. It's bollocks.
But that's the thing isn't it? they were so long under "barbarbian rule" that they are now called Italians, a combination of sort between the two, and not "Romans", thus "Roman civilization" didn't survive. China too was under "barbarbian rule" (Mongol) for a long time, but I know way less of that chinese period. We still call chinese for chinese before and after the mongols. But as I just mentioned, I don't really know much about this, if we would still regard chinese now, the same as the chinese then. If the mongol influenced them in the same way these germans did in Europe.
 
Romans continued to exist under and after barbarian rule. We just call them Italians now. Please don't buy into the "China is the only extant continuous civilisation" crap. It's bollocks.

We call them Italian, French, Spanish, Romanian, etc. Ruling classes from different tribes plus a decrease in contact caused several people who used to think of themselves as Roman to drift apart.
 
But that's the thing isn't it? they were so long under "barbarbian rule" that they are now called Italians, a combination of sort between the two, and not "Romans", thus "Roman civilization" didn't surive. China too was under "barbarbian rule" (Mongol) for a long time, but I know way less of that chinese period. We still call chinese for chinese before and after the mongols. But as I just mentioned, I don't really know much about this, if we would still regard chinese now, the same as the chinese then. If the mongol influenced them in the same way these germans did in Europe.

We call them Italians because it would have been ludicrous to refer to the denizens of an independent Venice or Florence in the middle ages as being "Roman" -- the denizens of a rival state. Rome as a polity only referred to the territory and people governed by the state of Rome: it makes little sense to refer to Italians as Roman once that polity ceased to exist unless they personally hail from the city of Rome. Zhongguo as a polity broadly refers to a specific geographical area: it doesn't matter whether you live in the state of Qin or Zhou or Wei because all these states existed within the designated geographical area.

Pedantically, it would be just as incorrect to call someone from China Chinese as it would be to call someone from Florence a Roman, since the term "Chinese" specifically refers to a denizen from the state of Qin. The fact that certain languages continue to use outdated names for certain things as a matter of custom should not be taken as any objective statement regarding the survival of said civilisation: after all, the Kingdom of Franks does not continue to exist as a political entity because the Germans still refer to their westerly neighbour as "Frankreich."
 
We call them Italians because it would have been ludicrous to refer to the denizens of an independent Venice or Florence in the middle ages as being "Roman" -- the denizens of a rival state. Rome as a polity only referred to the territory and people governed by the state of Rome: it makes little sense to refer to Italians as Roman once that polity ceased to exist unless they personally hail from the city of Rome. Zhongguo as a polity broadly refers to a specific geographical area: it doesn't matter whether you live in the state of Qin or Zhou or Wei because all these states existed within the designated geographical area.

Pedantically, it would be just as incorrect to call someone from China Chinese as it would be to call someone from Florence a Roman, since the term "Chinese" specifically refers to a denizen from the state of Qin. The fact that certain languages continue to use outdated names for certain things as a matter of custom should not be taken as any objective statement regarding the survival of said civilisation: after all, the Kingdom of Franks does not continue to exist as a political entity because the Germans still refer to their westerly neighbour as "Frankreich."
But the realm of the Franks very much does continue in Frankrijk. It's not a kingdom anymore, but the realm endures.

And the riverine idea lacks something, to me; rivers and the North Sea knit together Germany and the Netherlands (all of them), and with some fantasy you can include the parts of France to the Seine. This did help the Franks, but somehow the whole thing fell apart all the same.
 
We call them Italians because it would have been ludicrous to refer to the denizens of an independent Venice or Florence in the middle ages as being "Roman"
I suppose... but I also find it hard to believe they called themself Italians, when all of the citizens called themself Roman when all belonged to Rome, and since the Lombards was there, Italy was never really united. So I find it hard for italians to call themself Italians when Italy/italians wasn't a thing. Maybe they called themself Venetians, Tuscans and the like?
 
Please don't buy into the "China is the only extant continuous civilisation" crap. It's bollocks.

Do you have a moment to talk about Iran's glorious Aryan creation in 7000 BC and its heroic weathering of the millenia-long occupation of the evil Muslims which will lead to its inevitable emergence as a glorious atheist-Zoroastrian facsist hyperstate?
 
When the Old Roma were toppled, there was a brief period of Warring States, even though the true Roma emperor was still residing in the Eastern Capital.

Then in the 9th century, a warlord of the Western provinces got ahold of the old capital and crowned himself Emperor of Rome. This angered the Emperor in the Eastern capital. The period of Rome is commonly known as the Two Emperors Period.

Eventually, succession of the Imperial title passed to the Northern barbarians that had toppled the Old Roma, causing yet more rounds of friction with the Emperor in the Eastern capital.

Eventually the Eastern capital was conquered by Eastern barbarian hordes, and the Emperors in the West remained as the sole legitimate Roman dynasty, although that dynasty was weak and local governors were constantly warring for supremacy. Eventually, one such local governor rose to such prominence that he, too, would crown himself Emperor. This bid for power ended with the defeat of the Roman Emperor at the hand of the ursurper, but he, too, would soon be toppled by a coalition of local governors.

This causes a new century of Warring States, during which a succession of Roman governors would declare themselves Emperor, ending with the Four Emperor period where the warlords of Britannia, Francia, Austria and Russia all had declared themselves Emperor.

From then on, Roman history gets a bit muddled.
 
This is greatly overstating the historical unity and homogeneity of China.

For once I agree with you. :p

Do you have a moment to talk about Iran's glorious Aryan creation in 7000 BC and its heroic weathering of the millenia-long occupation of the evil Muslims which will lead to its inevitable emergence as a glorious atheist-Zoroastrian facsist hyperstate?

Javid Shah.

I suppose... but I also find it hard to believe they called themself Italians, when all of the citizens called themself Roman when all belonged to Rome, and since the Lombards was there, Italy was never really united. So I find it hard for italians to call themself Italians when Italy/italians wasn't a thing. Maybe they called themself Venetians, Tuscans and the like?

Italy was a thing since at least Roman times: it simply referred to a geographic area (roughly consisting of 2/3 of modern Italy) rather than a polity. Think of Italy in this context as similar to Britain today: politically, Britain has only existed since the Acts of Union came into being 300 years ago. Geographically-speaking however, Britain or some derivative thereof has been used to refer to the area and the peoples encompassing the modern-day UK for thousands of years. Thus, it is possible to speak of the "British peoples" or of "British civilisation" existing prior to 1707. Likewise, England has long ceased to exist as a polity, but it makes equal sense to speak of the "English peoples" or of "English civilisation" as a contemporary phenomenon.
 
The local nobility at least in Spain and France rarely identified as Roman. They thought of themselves as Franks, Goths, Normans or whatever was the local germanic tribe of the time.

In turn they influenced the local population: "Their people" to in turn adopt the identity of their lords. Obviously this was more of a bilateral exchange considering that even today Spain and France do not speak a germanic language (the big exception here being Great-Britain)

Italy is a more complex case. I am not an expert but from what I know it varies widly depending on the region. But even here the Roman identity died down, one of the reason being that the Roman Empire never fell in the first place.
They always was that Emperor in Constantinople who ruled Italy for some time and then that Emperor in well whatever city in Germany who also ruled Italy for some time.

Neither guy were really liked by the local populace (okay I know it's more complex than that but that's what happened when you explain centuries of history in a few sentence) and since being Roman was an admitance of being a subject of either emperors the identification also started to dwidle as Italians grew more and more estranged with the Empire.

Also China common identity long predates the Imperial era. It goes back all the way to the spring and autumn period at the very least. Probably even before.

Rome is a civilisation created by a state: The Roman Republic/Empire. No suprise that that civilisation fractured when the state fractured into different entities as well.
China is a civilisation that created an unitary state: It existed before being united and could survive long period of fragmentation without fracturing into tribalism.

That's the big difference between the two.
 
Also China common identity long predates the Imperial era. It goes back all the way to the spring and autumn period at the very least. Probably even before.

Rome is a civilisation created by a state: The Roman Republic/Empire. No suprise that that civilisation fractured when the state fractured into different entities as well.
China is a civilisation that created an unitary state: It existed before being united and could survive long period of fragmentation without fracturing into tribalism.

That's the big difference between the two.

Not quite. Rome is a polity created by a city: it started out as a humble city-state, and then expanded to the point at which it became a sprawling empire. Depending on how and what you define a civilisation as being, it either ended with that polity around the time of Odoacer or continued until anywhere from 1453 until 1922 at the absolute latest.

Zhongguo is a slightly different concept, as it is best understood in European terms as a continent rather than a nation. Our contemporary conception of continents is a European construct: prior to the influx of Western ideas in the 17th Century, the Chinese had no real concept of Asia, as Europeans would understand it. To the Chinese, Zhongguo itself was a continent (To this day, the Chinese term for "Mainland China" is Zhongguo Dalu, which literally means "The Great Continent of the Middle Kingdom/State" -- or if you will, the Continent of China) and everything outside it was extra-continental. Indeed, prior to the Qing Dynasty it would have been incomprehensible for a Chinese person to refer to Taiwan as part of Zhongguo as Taiwan was an island and therefore extra-continental.

To speak of Chinese civilisation as you or the OP speak of it is to speak of Roman civilisation in the loosest possible sense, as if it were synonymous with what we might call European civilisation: a series of peoples and cultures with different languages and customs united by a common cultural heritage to a past Empire. Of course, that isn't the definition you use for Roman civilisation but it is the definition you are using for Chinese civilisation, and it's this double standard which presents a problem. If we accept that you can use one definition of civilisation for Rome and a separate one for China then the OP's question is rendered moot.

Allow me to illustrate my point my means of a question: when do you (or the OP) consider Roman civilisation to have ended, and why?

If it ended with the polity of Rome (ie. the WRE) then how come you consider Chinese civilisation to have transcended the collapse of a multitude of different polities whereas Roman civilisation ends after the collapse of one? What makes the Qing Dynasty a continuation but the Kommenus or Carolingian not?

If it ended with the sack of Constantinople, then how come Byzantium is seen as a continuation of the Roman Empire but the Ottoman Empire is not? If the argument is that the former were a nomadic tribe with a different language, religion and customs and therefore don't count then what does that say of the Yuan?

If we take the loosest possible definition and say it ended with the end of the hegemony of Roman culture then surely it is Roman civilisation which has outlived Chinese civilisation and not the other way around? After all, the script of the Romans is still in common use today whereas the majority of Chinese use a script which was invented in the 1950's. Even Traditional Chinese only dates back as far as the 5th century and would be unintelligible to anyone born before the middle of the Han Dynasty at absolute earliest. Latin continued to be used as a lingua franca by European elites well into the 19th Century while the spoken language of the Tang and Song (let alone that of the Han or Qin) was replaced by Mandarin at some point during the early Ming Dynasty; Mandarin is to it as French is to Latin, while the ancestor language of Middle Chinese is patronisingly relegated to dialect status by a majority of Chinese, including by some of those who speak it. The Romans established a state church which is still very much in existence today (and much in the same form it was established in) whereas no comparative Chinese religious institution exists. Even the last states modelled on the Empire and the last European Caesars managed to outlast their Chinese counterparts, if only by a handful of months.

So no, there really is no big difference between the two irrespective of which conception of civilisation you use, provided you apply that standard consistently.
 
Not quite. Rome is a polity created by a city: it started out as a humble city-state, and then expanded to the point at which it became a sprawling empire. Depending on how and what you define a civilisation as being, it either ended with that polity around the time of Odoacer or continued until anywhere from 1453 until 1922 at the absolute latest.

Zhongguo is a slightly different concept, as it is best understood in European terms as a continent rather than a nation. Our contemporary conception of continents is a European construct: prior to the influx of Western ideas in the 17th Century, the Chinese had no real concept of Asia, as Europeans would understand it. To the Chinese, Zhongguo itself was a continent (To this day, the Chinese term for "Mainland China" is Zhongguo Dalu, which literally means "The Great Continent of the Middle Kingdom/State" -- or if you will, the Continent of China) and everything outside it was extra-continental. Indeed, prior to the Qing Dynasty it would have been incomprehensible for a Chinese person to refer to Taiwan as part of Zhongguo as Taiwan was an island and therefore extra-continental.

To speak of Chinese civilisation as you or the OP speak of it is to speak of Roman civilisation in the loosest possible sense, as if it were synonymous with what we might call European civilisation: a series of peoples and cultures with different languages and customs united by a common cultural heritage to a past Empire. Of course, that isn't the definition you use for Roman civilisation but it is the definition you are using for Chinese civilisation, and it's this double standard which presents a problem. If we accept that you can use one definition of civilisation for Rome and a separate one for China then the OP's question is rendered moot.

Allow me to illustrate my point my means of a question: when do you (or the OP) consider Roman civilisation to have ended, and why?

If it ended with the polity of Rome (ie. the WRE) then how come you consider Chinese civilisation to have transcended the collapse of a multitude of different polities whereas Roman civilisation ends after the collapse of one? What makes the Qing Dynasty a continuation but the Kommenus or Carolingian not?

If it ended with the sack of Constantinople, then how come Byzantium is seen as a continuation of the Roman Empire but the Ottoman Empire is not? If the argument is that the former were a nomadic tribe with a different language, religion and customs and therefore don't count then what does that say of the Yuan?

If we take the loosest possible definition and say it ended with the end of the hegemony of Roman culture then surely it is Roman civilisation which has outlived Chinese civilisation and not the other way around? After all, the script of the Romans is still in common use today whereas the majority of Chinese use a script which was invented in the 1950's. Even Traditional Chinese only dates back as far as the 5th century and would be unintelligible to anyone born before the middle of the Han Dynasty at absolute earliest. Latin continued to be used as a lingua franca by European elites well into the 19th Century while the spoken language of the Tang and Song (let alone that of the Han or Qin) was replaced by Mandarin at some point during the early Ming Dynasty; Mandarin is to it as French is to Latin, while the ancestor language of Middle Chinese is patronisingly relegated to dialect status by a majority of Chinese, including by some of those who speak it. The Romans established a state church which is still very much in existence today (and much in the same form it was established in) whereas no comparative Chinese religious institution exists. Even the last states modelled on the Empire and the last European Caesars managed to outlast their Chinese counterparts, if only by a handful of months.

So no, there really is no big difference between the two irrespective of which conception of civilisation you use, provided you apply that standard consistently.
A very informative and interesting read. You have alot of strong points I haven't considered (mostly because of my lack of knowledge in the chinese region)

I just wanted to answer some of your questions, which may very well be wrong, depending on how you see it.

I think the "Roman people and civilization" ended with the fall of Constantinople. And those reasons you stated for the Ottomans are certainly good ones, but not the first that came to my mind. Byzantine was in fact Roman. The Empire splitted in two, along with it's people where both called themself Romans (West & East). Even when the west fell, the east romans still lived (I think at this stage, Roman was more of a cultural identity, and that's why they continued to use the term even when Rome fell) Even tough they changed the language from Latin to Greek. But when the Ottomans took Constantinople, then there was no official "Roman" state to "unite" the people (using loose words here). That's the one thing I think mostly disqualifies Ottoman from being a continuation from the Roman civilization - They didn't come from Rome in the first place, but conquered it. While the Byzantine was Roman by blood. And about this to Yuan - I have never considered Yuan as a continuation from the chinese civilization, because of the same reasons I stated earlier. Idk, I might be alone in this thought? (I do suppose the Papacy/Catholic church is one way to say that the Legacy of Rome survived as you mentioned)

All of your other points are very good and I can't make any counterargument, but I do have a few questions:
We, in the west call chinese for "Han Chinese", is this very wrong, by that they are more of "Ming Chinese" or "Qing Chinese" (Chinese comes from Qing does it not? O.O )
I didn't know when Mandarin Chinese came into practice, but it makes sense it did under the Ming.
I at least FEEL like we in the west consider all modern chinese for "Han Chinese" and most speak "Mandarin". But what is the truth? When or what did they call eachother in their respective periods? Mings? Qins? What would be the correct term to use? (Honestly, it's very confusing)
 
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Not quite. Rome is a polity created by a city: it started out as a humble city-state, and then expanded to the point at which it became a sprawling empire. Depending on how and what you define a civilisation as being, it either ended with that polity around the time of Odoacer or continued until anywhere from 1453 until 1922 at the absolute latest.

Zhongguo is a slightly different concept, as it is best understood in European terms as a continent rather than a nation. Our contemporary conception of continents is a European construct: prior to the influx of Western ideas in the 17th Century, the Chinese had no real concept of Asia, as Europeans would understand it. To the Chinese, Zhongguo itself was a continent (To this day, the Chinese term for "Mainland China" is Zhongguo Dalu, which literally means "The Great Continent of the Middle Kingdom/State" -- or if you will, the Continent of China) and everything outside it was extra-continental. Indeed, prior to the Qing Dynasty it would have been incomprehensible for a Chinese person to refer to Taiwan as part of Zhongguo as Taiwan was an island and therefore extra-continental.

Exactly Rome as a civilisation cannot be separated from Rome the state. Because the former was a pure creation of the latter.

China the civilisation predates China the state.

This is a double standard true. But it is also a historical fact.

For me this is the core reason why one survived where the other did not. For Rome to be brush off it only needed a new state willing to create another civilisation from its ashes.


To speak of Chinese civilisation as you or the OP speak of it is to speak of Roman civilisation in the loosest possible sense, as if it were synonymous with what we might call European civilisation: a series of peoples and cultures with different languages and customs united by a common cultural heritage to a past Empire. Of course, that isn't the definition you use for Roman civilisation but it is the definition you are using for Chinese civilisation, and it's this double standard which presents a problem. If we accept that you can use one definition of civilisation for Rome and a separate one for China then the OP's question is rendered moot.

Allow me to illustrate my point my means of a question: when do you (or the OP) consider Roman civilisation to have ended, and why?

This is indeed a double-standard. Simply because Chinese still call themselves Han to these day and maintain a belief and actual continuity with the Han millenia before wherehas nobody today consider himself as Roman and Rome is indeed considered a dead civilisation by pretty much anyone.

For me it is nothing suprising because they are fundamental civilisational difference between China and the civilisations descended from Mesopotamia. Rome is just one of the last hegemonic empire that started as a small city build and died off.

Also I don't understand the Zhongguo point. The term could have quite different meaning depending on the era and how it is used. And yes Taiwan was never considered inside the term before the Qing for the simple reason that it never was part of China before them.

If it ended with the polity of Rome (ie. the WRE) then how come you consider Chinese civilisation to have transcended the collapse of a multitude of different polities whereas Roman civilisation ends after the collapse of one? What makes the Qing Dynasty a continuation but the Kommenus or Carolingian not?

If it ended with the sack of Constantinople, then how come Byzantium is seen as a continuation of the Roman Empire but the Ottoman Empire is not? If the argument is that the former were a nomadic tribe with a different language, religion and customs and therefore don't count then what does that say of the Yuan?

Yes the Roman Empire ended in 1453 because the last (serious) polity that could trace its lineage to the Roman city-state died that year.

Why did it not last its periods of disunity ? First perhaps because it simply never reunited in the first place ? Ever thought of that ?
Otherwise let me repeat myself since you seem to not have read the post you quoted:

One explanation is because the elites in Europe did not consider themselves as Roman. They were Franks, Goth, English, Norse etc. And clearly claimed a lineage that was not Roman this in turn influence the local populace who stopped indentifying as Romans and became French, Spanish, English etc.

The other is that in fact the Roman Empire DID NOT FALL. and this played a huge part in how the west viewed itself in opposition to the empire especially in Italy.
If you are Roman then you owe fealty to the Emperor be it the real one in Constantinople or the Anti-Emperor in Germany.

But if you are not Roman then you don't owe those empire nothing. This is separatism 101.

Oh and why the Ottoman Empire was not a continuation of the Empire ? Perhaps because they never pretended to be in the first place, hmm ? I know that Mehmet claimed the Imperium but his successor discontinued and prefered to focus on their Caliphate heritage than proclaim to be Rome.

Same with all the states that claimed Emperorship afterhand. They never considered themselves to be the Roman state reborn so why should I even spare the thought ?

If we take the loosest possible definition and say it ended with the end of the hegemony of Roman culture then surely it is Roman civilisation which has outlived Chinese civilisation and not the other way around? After all, the script of the Romans is still in common use today whereas the majority of Chinese use a script which was invented in the 1950's. Even Traditional Chinese only dates back as far as the 5th century and would be unintelligible to anyone born before the middle of the Han Dynasty at absolute earliest. Latin continued to be used as a lingua franca by European elites well into the 19th Century while the spoken language of the Tang and Song (let alone that of the Han or Qin) was replaced by Mandarin at some point during the early Ming Dynasty; Mandarin is to it as French is to Latin, while the ancestor language of Middle Chinese is patronisingly relegated to dialect status by a majority of Chinese, including by some of those who speak it. The Romans established a state church which is still very much in existence today (and much in the same form it was established in) whereas no comparative Chinese religious institution exists. Even the last states modelled on the Empire and the last European Caesars managed to outlast their Chinese counterparts, if only by a handful of months.

By the loosest possible definition we all bow down to the supremacy of the Mesopotamian city-states who gave us everything from Agriculture to science and writing yet they are just as dead as the Romans.

When you use definition so loosely then really everything can be rationalised.

So no, there really is no big difference between the two irrespective of which conception of civilisation you use, provided you apply that standard consistently.

And yet people in China still call themselves Han and still live in a unitary nation (with two states hehe) more than two thousands years after the Qing.

Whereas the people around the mediterreanean never saw an unified Roman empire again since 476. And when I go to Carthage, Alexandria, Constantinople, Antioch, Barcelona or Cordoba among the biggest cities of the Imperium back then and still among the biggest cities around the mediterranean I have lots of trouble finding Romans. Seems like only in Rome I have success back where everything started indeed. :D
 
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For once I agree with you. :p



Javid Shah.



Italy was a thing since at least Roman times: it simply referred to a geographic area (roughly consisting of 2/3 of modern Italy) rather than a polity. Think of Italy in this context as similar to Britain today: politically, Britain has only existed since the Acts of Union came into being 300 years ago. Geographically-speaking however, Britain or some derivative thereof has been used to refer to the area and the peoples encompassing the modern-day UK for thousands of years. Thus, it is possible to speak of the "British peoples" or of "British civilisation" existing prior to 1707. Likewise, England has long ceased to exist as a polity, but it makes equal sense to speak of the "English peoples" or of "English civilisation" as a contemporary phenomenon.

Italy was sort of a thing. Like, it was a province with an identity in Rome, and sort of during the subsequent Lombard and Gothic kingdoms, but really after the Byzantine/Frankish conquests the idea of a united "Italy" or an "italian identity" didn't exist in the way we think of it now, or even as it did in Roman times, to the extent that it did (and was still very different from being "Italian" today), between the end of the Lombard kingdom and roughly the napoleonic era. You can argue the exact dates, but the idea of people thinking of themselves as "Italian" and not "neopolitan" or "venitian" between the end of the Roman Empire/Lombard-Gothic kingdoms in italy.