What's a good way to expand and survive as a vassal?

[unmerged(94581)]

I am a relative neophite in CK, having played just a few games for a few decades each.

One thing I can't figure out is how to expand effectively when I'm not independent. I try to either pick on smaller states or declare my own wars together with the king (like when a rogue vassal breaks away from him) and claim a county or two for myself. There are two main problems I run into with this.

One, the king loves to make white peace or money peace if he didn't start the war. The only time he doesn't do that is when he himself has a claim on the territory. That brings us to two: when the war does last longer and I do take territories for myself, the king also ends up with a claim on those territories, and eventually declares war on me. At that point I am forced to try to make a very humiliating peace with the king and sometimes end up with less than I started with.

Am I missing something, or are you pretty much stuck and at the mercy of the monarch if you are a vassal (realistic, but not very fun)?

Finally, one last question to kind of sum it up. I would like to play a long game as part of a big country, but not its head, so I don't have to deal with the logistics of running a giant state with many vassals. Is that viable, or does one pretty much have to strive to become king or die trying in this game?

 

[unmerged(127071)]

How about using the other options available to you? war is NOT the only way to expand in ck.

Marry your hairs to the daughters of rich counts/dukes/kings. Political marriages where fairly common back then after all.
Then use your spy master to help create that oh so horrible "accident" that puts your grandsons at the number 1 spot to inherit their other grandfather's lands.

 

[TempestDK]

I am a relative neophite in CK, having played just a few games for a few decades each.

One thing I can't figure out is how to expand effectively when I'm not independent. I try to either pick on smaller states or declare my own wars together with the king (like when a rogue vassal breaks away from him) and claim a county or two for myself. There are two main problems I run into with this.

One, the king loves to make white peace or money peace if he didn't start the war. The only time he doesn't do that is when he himself has a claim on the territory. That brings us to two: when the war does last longer and I do take territories for myself, the king also ends up with a claim on those territories, and eventually declares war on me. At that point I am forced to try to make a very humiliating peace with the king and sometimes end up with less than I started with.

Am I missing something, or are you pretty much stuck and at the mercy of the monarch if you are a vassal (realistic, but not very fun)?

Finally, one last question to kind of sum it up. I would like to play a long game as part of a big country, but not its head, so I don't have to deal with the logistics of running a giant state with many vassals. Is that viable, or does one pretty much have to strive to become king or die trying in this game?

Being a vassal sucks ... as I am sure it also did many times back in the days

In order to expand, you need to be clever and/or patient.

What you need to do is wage small, fast wars on one province minors preferably. Since you need to end it quickly, you'll need to reseach Siege Tech, at least until you get lvl1. The better the tech, the faster the siege.

Also it is good to wait until your liege is otherwise engaged. It seems he will be slower to accept peace offers when he is in another war. If you have a peaceful liege, you could help him along, by declaring war on some distant country.

Once you are in a war, siege the province as soon as possible (a good idea is to station your troops as close as possible before declaring war. Then as soon as the siege ends (and I mean IMMEDIATELY) pause the game, so you have time to settle for peace, and not having to worry about your liege doing it while you are setting up your peace screen.

This is the best way of securing expansion. Another way is to simply wait until your liege starts tangling with another larger realm, then piggy-back on his war and attack any provinces he haven't taken yet, and hopefully if he is winning the opponents will offer you the controlled province(s) before giving in to the demands of your liege.

For your second question, then yes, ofcourse you can have a fun game as a vassal, but most aspire to be top-dog eventually. But if you want to be the powerful Duke of Aquitaine how is loyal to the french crown, then by all means do that

 

[unmerged(84239)]

1. make love not war (example is Agnes D'Aquitane)
2. attack muslims/pagans
3. attack independent/revolter counts dukes
4. follow your liege into a war (staying loyal to the HRE will give you lots of prestige and opportunity)
5. don't attack your liege's vassal, attack the vassal of the liege's vassal.


Example for 5.

If a hungarian count, you attack a direct vassal of the king, what will happen:
1. you declare war
2. the liege will have one of it's vassals attacked
3. the king will DoW you

If there is a hungarian duke with count vassals.
1. you declare war on the count vassal
2. the duke's vassal is attacked, he attacks you
3. the king sees that you are attacked by a duke and will attack the duke, not you!


So, you are free to wage war in your kingdom, until you
- don't attack the king
- don't attack the king's direct vassal

 

[unmerged(94581)]

Thanks, some good advice there, definitely. I'm still curious about how to avoid the king attacking me due to claims. EDIT: aside from the obvious answer of only attacking heathens.


I have no problem capturing rebellious territories, but then even though the territory is mine, the king has a claim on its title (from when it originally rebelled). Often, even if it was an independent county/duchy and not a rebellious one, the king would still claim a title to it during the course of the war. Then, because I own land he has claims to, I am in danger of being attacked by my own liege. I've had this happen even though I was a personal friend of the king and married to one of his daughters.

 

[TempestDK]

Thanks, some good advice there, definitely. I'm still curious about how to avoid the king attacking me due to claims. EDIT: aside from the obvious answer of only attacking heathens.


I have no problem capturing rebellious territories, but then even though the territory is mine, the king has a claim on its title (from when it originally rebelled). Often, even if it was an independent county/duchy and not a rebellious one, the king would still claim a title to it during the course of the war. Then, because I own land he has claims to, I am in danger of being attacked by my own liege. I've had this happen even though I was a personal friend of the king and married to one of his daughters.

The answer is ... don't have territory your king has claims on .. he WILL be forcing the claim sooner or later

The only time you don't have to worry about that, is when you are vastly more powerful than the king.

 

[unmerged(133776)]

The answer is ... don't have territory your king has claims on .. he WILL be forcing the claim sooner or later .

This one aspect of Crusader Kings irritates me to no end. It's one of the few times where I have no qualms what-so-ever in using the 'Byzantine' cheat. When I truly want to play the 'loyal vassal' route for several generations, sooner or later, my Liege WILL get a claim on one of my titles, and then he WILL DOW me. No if's, and's or but's about it. So the game is forcing you to eventually take on your Liege in battle.