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Originally posted by Araanor
Paradox(al) convention?
No technical specifications are used by all game companies.
/Greven
Originally posted by Sonny
The technical specifications for HOI must have been a mess!
On the serious side though, the AI is the toughest part of a game to make. There are so many things which look simple to us because we have years of intuitive understanding about many things - the AI does not. Just because you can see the path needed to get from Anglia to the Highlands (sorry if this seems like I'm not discussing this game) doesn't mean the AI can see it - it needs to calculate it. And this is just moving from one place to another - something we think is simple.
Sure AI is tough. Not only must you master the game yourself you must also find a good macrosystem for its (the individual ai:s) decision making. You also need a lot of time of testing and refining it.
/Greven
I first wanna say that Corporate Machine is not without loopholes which the ai has got no hindsight for, but secondly this strategy games play in another league. Yes if we had made game based on non-forked logical series of variables then the ai would have been much simpler to program as CM. However not necissarily better. In games simplified the ai behaviour become very simple to predetect (TOAW is a good example, even though the game is excellent to play Player vs. Player). In a game like CM there are a predefined number of possible strategies THAT makes it a tad bit easier to refine an ai from. Our games don't have such predefined set or rather it is set in theory but it would too cumbersome to calculate I think....I'll ask Johan on Monday, maybe we could write a Master's degree essay in Statistics on it.
Dearmad, let us not upset ourselves over this issue. I concede the ai in our games could be better, and I promise you it will become better as we get more and more knowledge and experience in making ai's for extensively complex games. Now I personally do not find it much worse than in most strategy games on a similar level of complexity...THAT I believe is more of a personal view in the same way as you believe that we killed the ai in HoI...Personal believes...I love them.
/Greven
Shxt!!! I hereby warn everyone that has posted in this thread (including myself) that we are going quite OT here. Let's discuss Crusader Kings... (Btw I know nothing about its ai...)
/Greven
)/Greven
Something that always complicate things in games like this is that we want the AI to act "realistic" not only try to win in every way possible (like the player often do)
Greven,
Agreed and your points are well taken. I have a *lot* more faith in the Paradox group than I do in nearly any other designer right now, and if you are saying that work on AI will continue forward that's good enough for me. Keeping it somewhat open (as you already do) is also helpful and I'm thankful for it.
I'm only harsh on ya 'cause I care so dang much! Paradox is the ONLY gaming company (Sid Meier is no more, IMO) that makes me go to the bookstore looking for more history books to read, and that is cool!
Agreed and your points are well taken. I have a *lot* more faith in the Paradox group than I do in nearly any other designer right now, and if you are saying that work on AI will continue forward that's good enough for me. Keeping it somewhat open (as you already do) is also helpful and I'm thankful for it.
I'm only harsh on ya 'cause I care so dang much! Paradox is the ONLY gaming company (Sid Meier is no more, IMO) that makes me go to the bookstore looking for more history books to read, and that is cool!
Gee, talk about Sid Meier. I used to be such a big fan of his before Civ3 and all the bs his design team gave us when the game wasn't working as it marketed it would. Everything went down the drain for me with them. But luckly I saw someone talking about a game called HOI on a CIV3 forum...and, here I am. Couldn't be happier with the Paradox team. At least THEY listen to their customers and try to understand their problems.
Couldn't be happier with the Paradox team. At least THEY listen to their customers and try to understand their problems.
Originally posted by Greven
Let's discuss Crusader Kings... (Btw I know nothing about its ai...
/Greven
Sure, my Duke, let's revert to our main theme
So here is the short list of what CK AI has to think about:
I. Preparations for war
- build proper upgrades in provinces
- conclude alliances
- store enough cash (heh, what is enough cash?)
- check you have good CB on your enemy (different CBs allow winner to get different spoils of war)
- check you have a right of passage up to the enemy's territory
II. Waging war
- pathfinding (including weather consideration)
- pick strategy for all armies
- pick tactics for every army in another province
- find enemy, rout him and besiege cities
- get something of value in a peace treaty
III. Dynasty problems
- check if you have enough heirs ready to back you up
- check if any nice inter-dynastical marriage is possible
- check if your Ofiicial Heir is appointed and it doesn't disappoint everybody else
IV. Feudal Management
- check if current feudal structure may turn your vassals disloyal
- check if your Count should be promoted to Dukes
- check if your Royal Council is working properly
V. Realm Management
- don't forget to go for next advance (better for the most needed)
- see if you need any Law to issue
- check if you have a fine reason to impose a Duty on your vassals
VI. Religious Deeds
- hey, it's been too long without dying in a Crusade!
- and the Pope has been listening to evil Guelphs for too long!
And please mind that Characters are having different Traits, so each AI Ruler evaluates current situation differently from Player and other AI Rulers.
That means AI will think in different ways when playing AI vs AI. Wonder whether it will cheat against itself?
At times I'm afraid this game will be too hard for human beings, so the AI will have to play it alone...
Duke in Red
*Cracks his knuckles*
Another project.
At this rate I'll never have time for myself.
Another project.
At this rate I'll never have time for myself.
Originally posted by boreal_s
Sure, my Duke, let's revert to our main theme
So here is the short list of what CK AI has to think about:
I. Preparations for war
- build proper upgrades in provinces
- conclude alliances
- store enough cash (heh, what is enough cash?)
- check you have good CB on your enemy (different CBs allow winner to get different spoils of war)
- check you have a right of passage up to the enemy's territory
II. Waging war
- pathfinding (including weather consideration)
- pick strategy for all armies
- pick tactics for every army in another province
- find enemy, rout him and besiege cities
- get something of value in a peace treaty
III. Dynasty problems
- check if you have enough heirs ready to back you up
- check if any nice inter-dynastical marriage is possible
- check if your Ofiicial Heir is appointed and it doesn't disappoint everybody else
IV. Feudal Management
- check if current feudal structure may turn your vassals disloyal
- check if your Count should be promoted to Dukes
- check if your Royal Council is working properly
V. Realm Management
- don't forget to go for next advance (better for the most needed)
- see if you need any Law to issue
- check if you have a fine reason to impose a Duty on your vassals
VI. Religious Deeds
- hey, it's been too long without dying in a Crusade!
- and the Pope has been listening to evil Guelphs for too long!
And please mind that Characters are having different Traits, so each AI Ruler evaluates current situation differently from Player and other AI Rulers.
That means AI will think in different ways when playing AI vs AI. Wonder whether it will cheat against itself?
At times I'm afraid this game will be too hard for human beings, so the AI will have to play it alone...
Duke in Red
Sounds nice!
oh and the last sentence....
I doubt it
Originally posted by boreal_s
Sure, my Duke, let's revert to our main theme
So here is the short list of what CK AI has to think about:
I. Preparations for war
- build proper upgrades in provinces
- conclude alliances
- store enough cash (heh, what is enough cash?)
- check you have good CB on your enemy (different CBs allow winner to get different spoils of war)
- check you have a right of passage up to the enemy's territory
II. Waging war
- pathfinding (including weather consideration)
- pick strategy for all armies
- pick tactics for every army in another province
- find enemy, rout him and besiege cities
- get something of value in a peace treaty
III. Dynasty problems
- check if you have enough heirs ready to back you up
- check if any nice inter-dynastical marriage is possible
- check if your Ofiicial Heir is appointed and it doesn't disappoint everybody else
IV. Feudal Management
- check if current feudal structure may turn your vassals disloyal
- check if your Count should be promoted to Dukes
- check if your Royal Council is working properly
V. Realm Management
- don't forget to go for next advance (better for the most needed)
- see if you need any Law to issue
- check if you have a fine reason to impose a Duty on your vassals
VI. Religious Deeds
- hey, it's been too long without dying in a Crusade!
- and the Pope has been listening to evil Guelphs for too long!
And please mind that Characters are having different Traits, so each AI Ruler evaluates current situation differently from Player and other AI Rulers.
That means AI will think in different ways when playing AI vs AI. Wonder whether it will cheat against itself?
At times I'm afraid this game will be too hard for human beings, so the AI will have to play it alone...
Duke in Red
Well I have to say this is a very impressive list, now I do have a question, in EU, EUII & HoI, many of the AI input variables were stored in text files to allow easy modding. Are you considering a similar approach for the AI of CK?
!
Nice List!
Oh mister Duke in Red, can I be a simple vassel to my much smarter AI king?
Originally posted by boreal_s
Sure, my Duke, let's revert to our main theme
So here is the short list of what CK AI has to think about:
I. Preparations for war
- build proper upgrades in provinces
- conclude alliances
- store enough cash (heh, what is enough cash?)
- check you have good CB on your enemy (different CBs allow winner to get different spoils of war)
- check you have a right of passage up to the enemy's territory
II. Waging war
- pathfinding (including weather consideration)
- pick strategy for all armies
- pick tactics for every army in another province
- find enemy, rout him and besiege cities
- get something of value in a peace treaty
III. Dynasty problems
- check if you have enough heirs ready to back you up
- check if any nice inter-dynastical marriage is possible
- check if your Ofiicial Heir is appointed and it doesn't disappoint everybody else
IV. Feudal Management
- check if current feudal structure may turn your vassals disloyal
- check if your Count should be promoted to Dukes
- check if your Royal Council is working properly
V. Realm Management
- don't forget to go for next advance (better for the most needed)
- see if you need any Law to issue
- check if you have a fine reason to impose a Duty on your vassals
VI. Religious Deeds
- hey, it's been too long without dying in a Crusade!
- and the Pope has been listening to evil Guelphs for too long!
And please mind that Characters are having different Traits, so each AI Ruler evaluates current situation differently from Player and other AI Rulers.
That means AI will think in different ways when playing AI vs AI. Wonder whether it will cheat against itself?
At times I'm afraid this game will be too hard for human beings, so the AI will have to play it alone...
Duke in Red
Nice List!
Oh mister Duke in Red, can I be a simple vassel to my much smarter AI king?
What I was trying to point out is that the example I gave (pathfinding) was something which is one of the simpler (only for us not the AI) parts of the game. You gotta throw a lot more into the mix (i.e. all the stuff the Duke in Red mentioned) - and those are just the high level things).
Yes, some stuff is easily calculated with enough memory and cpu cycles. In a real-time (or continuous time) game you don't have the luxury of a lot of cycles to use.
So designing a game around what the AI can do is very limiting - especially if you are also allowing MP.
Sorry, if my post seemed to harsh. No intention of bashing.
Re: !
You could always offer to vassalize yourself to the AI in EU2...
Originally posted by historycaesar
Nice List!
Oh mister Duke in Red, can I be a simple vassel to my much smarter AI king?
You could always offer to vassalize yourself to the AI in EU2...
Re: Re: !
The Feudal relations are a bit different in CK though. What we have been told is that originally you shouldn't be able to play as a vassal, but that the matter would be further tested and included if it worked...
Well I'm very interested in the dynasty part of the game and all the (inevitable) intermarriages that will take place both between "nations" and "internationally" for lack of better terms.
Seems like a real potential weakpoint for the AI is in notmanaging this part of the game well and finding itself without heirs or in tricky diplomatic situations that the Human more simply avoided.
Although all this is shooting blind into the night because we got so little information! Waaaaah!
Seems like a real potential weakpoint for the AI is in notmanaging this part of the game well and finding itself without heirs or in tricky diplomatic situations that the Human more simply avoided.
Although all this is shooting blind into the night because we got so little information! Waaaaah!
Originally posted by Dearmad
Well I'm very interested in the dynasty part of the game and all the (inevitable) intermarriages that will take place both between "nations" and "internationally" for lack of better terms.
Seems like a real potential weakpoint for the AI is in notmanaging this part of the game well and finding itself without heirs or in tricky diplomatic situations that the Human more simply avoided.
Although all this is shooting blind into the night because we got so little information! Waaaaah!
it sounds like nothing is good enough for you. so if youre so smart and all why dont you make your own game.
designers: i hope CK will not be 3D?