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Gruffa

Product Manager
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Mar 9, 2011
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Hi everyone! I’m Gustav “Gruffa” Groth, Product Manager on CK2. First, a disclaimer: This is not your regular dev diary as I’m not a developer, I work in publishing. However, as most of the dev team is on vacation, I’ll do my best to fill the gap. :)

I won’t reveal any changes to the game in this dev diary, because I think that’s best explained by the devs themselves. Instead, I’ll try to give you some insight into what the publishing side of Paradox does for CK2.

I officially took over the Product Manager role shortly after we released Monks & Mystics. I’d been standing in for the previous PM during the expansion release, and I’m a big fan of the game (current campaign: Zunbil, 769 start, HIP mod) so I couldn’t be happier to work with it! So here I am.

As Product Manager, I’m ultimately responsible for making sure that we provide our fans with the best CK2 products possible. This wouldn’t be possible without the hard work of a number of people from different departments at Paradox. I thought the best way to explain how all us publishing folks contribute, I’d walk you through a somewhat simplified version of the publishing process. This process can vary from project to project, depending on its size (whole game or DLC). The one described below is specific to CK2 expansions.

The core decision-making point for a product at the publishing wing is the Product Team. It meets bi-weekly and consists of the Game Director, Project Lead, Product Marketing Manager and myself, the PM. This is where the initial decision on whether or not to start development of the next expansion is made.

Three things are needed for an expansion (and associated updates) to happen; a design, a dev team and a profitable business case. Without all of these factors in place, development would cease. Luckily for CK2 and its fans, there’s been no shortage in any of them for more than five years!

If the Game Director (Doomdark) is confident in their design, we begin to investigate the potential business case. First, we evaluate whether or not the proposed expansion is something that will be appreciated by you guys, the players. While I trust the judgment of DoomDark and the dev team, I make sure to take time to read your feedback on the forum and elsewhere. As for playing the game myself, that solves itself since it’s something I happily do on my free time. In addition to our own experiences and your feedback, we also use additional analytics tools, provided by our very talented analytics team! These tools help us understand player behavior, and see statistics on start dates, mod usage and many other useful metrics.

When we all think that this expansion is something that you guys would like, the Project Lead (Anona) makes an estimate of the work needed to make it reality. This helps PDS evaluate whether or not the needed staff is available and it’s also used by me to calculate development costs.

The next step is to evaluate the business case. There’s more to this than just having projected revenues be higher than costs. Could the staff at both PDS and Publishing be put to work more efficiently elsewhere? Is the timing right? Does the expected release date coincide with other product releases? The latter situation can be both detrimental and beneficial, but I won’t go deeper into detail about that.

If we decide that the business case is sound, I make sure that I have an approved budget from management and to everyone’s joy, development can start!

This is where the fun begins! That is to say, for everyone else. During the first months of development is usually when I have the least to do, other than follow up on issues brought up during Product Team meetings. Me being the “suit”, my way of helping is usually increasing the budget, pushing the release date, or both.

During this early stage of development, marketing starts planning their efforts. There’s a lot that goes into this; there’s advertising, planning events, social media presence, trailer production, setting up store pages on Steam and Paradox Plaza, producing streams, negotiating promotion deals with retailers and much much more. Suffice to say our marketing department is a big (but lean) machine consisting of people with a large variety of skillsets, coupled with a passion for the games we make. Today, Crusader Kings is an old and well established brand, so marketing can manage most things on their own without input from the rest of the product team. Although some things will always require input from all parties involved, such as expansion name and trailer script.

During the middle months, there’s lots of communication between departments, prioritization and handling of issues and opportunities as they come up, all the while keeping a close eye on budget and your discussions and impressions of dev diaries.

As we close in on a release-ready build, marketing efforts ramp up. This is a hectic time for everyone involved, as the dev team puts their best effort in killing bugs, marketing activities happen almost daily and planning for the next expansion begins in earnest. On release day, all involved hands are on deck here on the publishing floor to ensure everything goes smooth. I can’t do much myself but nervously monitor player feedback and sales figures.

After release, while the dev team is working on hotfixes and patches, we do follow-up. We give feedback to each other on what went well… and not so well. I prepare a short report on the sales and player numbers which is presented to the entire company at our next Monthly News session in the kitchen. There we also share what we learned from the project to the next organization, so we don’t make (too many of) the same mistakes again.

So, that was a short summary of the CK2 expansion publishing process. I hope it was somewhat interesting to get a look at how we do things in publishing, and that it was an alright substitute for the regular dev diaries. I thought I’d leave you with a fun fact: CK2 set a new record number of Monthly Active Users (MAU) with the release of Monks & Mystics, the all time high happening on March 19th. Not bad for 5+ year old game! We’re lucky to have such passionate and dedicated fans!

I’ll stay around in the thread to answer as many questions as possible, or just to chat with you guys!
//Gustav
 
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While the overview of the process is very interesting. What do your daily tasks consist of?

Obviously it varies, but with what I'm assuming is 2 meetings a week with different teams - bi-weekly meeting of 4 projects - some things are bound to become daily.

You're correct in assuming my daily work is varied, actually my workload fluctuates massively, which I personally appreciate. Sometimes I'm bogged down with issues and opportunities happening in all four projects simultaneously, and sometimes I get the time to sit back and think bigger and more strategically about them. However, there's certainly some degree of repetitiveness to it as well. I'll try to list some things I do as best as I can:

On a day-to-day basis:
  • prepare meeting agendas, follow up on action points and check in with departments on different tasks
  • make documents such as product overviews which the rest of the organization can use to get an idea of the games they work on
  • be the central hub of information on a product, and as a result get a lot of questions
Less frequently:
  • forecast revenue and costs for my projects
  • follow up on product performance and bring up points for strategic discussion in the product teams
  • write material which the management team and the board base their investment decisions on
  • review game pitches and do research for upcoming games
  • review contracts
  • travel to meet developers and go to events (E3 was a blast!)
... and a bunch of other things that come my way. Some say that a Product Manager should be 2nd best at everything. I.e. everyone else are experts in their respective fields, be it programming, design, art, communication, legal, sales etc. I sometimes get to do things which fall between the cracks, so that the others can do what they do best.

I hope that answers your question! :)
 
Pretty cool to see your level of passion for the game :)

I consider myself very lucky to be working on CK2! EU4 was my go-to when I joined Paradox, with thousands of hours in the bag. Back then I had only occasionally dabbled with CK2. Now CK2 has almost completely taken over my gaming time and I don't foresee that changing anytime soon!

... and what's even cooler is the passion I see from the community here and on other forums everyday!
 
It does. Sounds very much like a BA/QA type role, especially since you are being the translator between the development team and the customer (the community). Critically analysing feedback to ensure the correct information is passed on for example. I'd also assume that you'd be in the discussions about the user stories and the acceptance criteria for the project or is that outside the scope of your role.

It is difficult to narrow down roles to a specific field, but drawing parallels help with comparing to other structures.

Consider the Product Team the owners of the game at the company, for their respective departments. GD/PL own it from development, PMM owns it for marketing and PM owns it for business (profit/loss).

It's also the PM's responsibility to make sure that all the pieces come together in a coherent way.. the "product" is the sum of the game, marketing, communication, people, etc combined together. You can have a great game, and a great marketing campaign, but if the two don't work together, then you'll have a poor product, which means you probably won't have a successful product. Gruffa used the term suit, to describe the role, which is what the role is at most companies, a nameless suit behind the scenes making decisions based on a financial spreadsheet. At Paradox though, the suit, is a little more involved in the project, a little more hands on.
 
What about aesthetic DLCs? I understand that initiative about adding/improving features and content comes from the development team (which seems a good call rather than imposing them what "people" might want). But the first step on what new music, units, portraits develop... on which does it rely?

PS More music, please ;)

Good question! We have an ongoing discussion about such things in the product team as well, as the aesthetic additions become parts of the product we sell. We sort of agree on what type and amount of aesthetic additions we think makes sense, and the dev team gets creative from there. What the additions ultimately become is left up to them, as they know the game best.
 
How much do you take into account user surveys and gauge where player interest is when you decide what product to make? Do you use any statistics?
Does the perceived success or failure of the individual expansions help you to evaluate the direction of future content? Or are the features of new expansions left totally in the hands of the devs?

For example, one expansion that saw a good deal of negative feedback (rightly or wrongly) was Conclave. While the sales of Conclave itself were probably fine, I get the impression some people either regretted their purchase or would not purchase a similarly-toned/themed/balanced expansion in the future. Would it be your job to look at the community's feedback and thereby shift the focus of development?

I'll answer both of these questions in one go.

The short answer:
We use all of these inputs, from player feedback to revenue to player data to our own gut feeling.

The long answer:
I mostly find that we act data-informed at Paradox, rather than data-driven. That is - we use our gut feeling to come up with ideas that we think would be fun and appreciated by the players. These ideas should ideally be phrased like hypotheses and could be anything from "This is a good theme for the DLC" to "This is a good marketing approach"

We then use data to validate our hypotheses. Data can come in many different shapes and forms. There's survey results, user reviews, comments on the forum, player behavior data, revenue figures etc. These data sources serve different purposes. Quantitative data usually comes in handy when trying to find what our players are doing, or what they like. Qualitative data help us understand why players act in certain ways or like certain things. It's up to everyone to use the data available to them.

Ultimately, we always aim to create products that we think you'll find fun and worth your time and money, because that's a win for everyone.
 
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It was a very interesting read!

As estimating revenues, costs et. c. for expansions is part of your job, do you have a rough estimate about how much would cost the major mods for CK2 if they were paid?

I'm not sure if you're asking for the cost of development of such a mod, or what I think the price of them should be. To calculate development cost you would need to take into account the number of people working on the mod, and then the cost of each person's time, which can vary wildly between countries or even cities. (Roughly: Total dev cost = monthly cost of developer x months x team size) I can't share what estimated costs we have at PDX, but using that formula you can make a guess yourself.

Both pricing and evaluating the business case becomes a bit trickier still as these mods are under development for a long time. Would you pay once and then expect updates to keep coming in forever, or pay for each update?

Overall, I'm very happy that we have mods that add a bunch of great content to our games. There's certainly a lot of effort behind them. As stated in my original post, I'm currently playing with the HIP mod, and it's great!
 
Regarding the aesthetic DLC...do you know that quite a few people love them, and get very confused and anxious because they are promoted only a few days before the release?

(not really a serious question, but would really like to know why don't we get much info about them) :p

This is great feedback! I'll bring this up to the product team and find out if there's a way we can communicate the inclusion of Aesthetic DLC at an earlier stage in our marketing timeline.

What have been the team's biggest surprise successes and biggest surprise failures? As in, what was something you were either really excited about that fell short of sales expectations, or something you were only marginally comfortable publishing that turned out to sell much better than you ever imagined?

This is a question that's probably better answered by someone who's been around the project longer than I have. From my perspective, I still haven't fully grasped that CK2's active player base keeps growing, after 5 years! Therefore I've underestimated revenues for the game a number of times already in my short time as Product Manager.
 
How is the price point of the DLC decided? Is it something with which you start with (as in our next DLC is going to cost x and hence we have to include so much levels of content) or is it something you decide after the DLC is envisioned and you see how much content it has?

Price follows design, and not the other way around. We have a general idea for what the price is going to be from the outset, so the devs don't go about designing an expansion that would need to be priced at $100. The official price point decision is made during development when we have a good idea of what the final product is going to be.
 
Are you also part of the decision making team which decides when the game/DLCs are going to be on sale? Could you give us some glimpse of what all factors go into deciding to put games and DLCs on sale?

I have noticed that for the past 2 DLC release cycles, PI has decided to bundle DLCs of CKII/EU4 and then EU4/HoI4 with a 10% discount. Has it led to an appreciable increase in players of one game purchasing DLCs and base game of the other series in the bundled offer?

I can have a say about sales and discounts, but the partner management (i.e. sales) team in the marketing department can and do run that pretty much on their own. Bundles are also one of their areas of expertise. Usually, initiatives associated with discounts or bundles usually come from them and are run past the product team before implementation.

So far the new 2 DLC + 2 base games bundle seems to work pretty well, and that's about all I can say about that. :)

I personally found this a very interesting diary to read, since it sounds so similar to what I do myself in my corporate life. I always wondered about the business side of videogames. I know I never had and never will have the talent to be a dev, but I'm good at business and while I like my current job dealing with different grades of plastic granulates ... it doesn't inspire the same passion a product like CK2 or EU4 does.

We're always on the lookout for people who can do business and have a passion for games!
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So when the day comes that CKii ceases to receive updates we can all blame you? ;)

I'll be 100% fine with you blaming me, because hopefully something else that you enjoy comes out of that decision. :p
 
Hey everyone,

There's been a number of great questions which have been left unanswered over the last week. I've been reeeeaaaally busy with a reeeeaaaally secret and exciting project so I haven't been able to get back to you. I hope to do so soon.
 
Hey everyone,

There's been a number of great questions which have been left unanswered over the last week. I've been reeeeaaaally busy with a reeeeaaaally secret and exciting project so I haven't been able to get back to you. I hope to do so soon.

Pfft, slacker :D
 
As promised - I'm back to answer questions!

We know that Paradox outsources a few of its production pipeline, such as translation, to outside contractors. I wonder, since mods are so appreciated by the Paradox staff in terms of how much they increase replayability, extend product lifeshelf and add to the overall enjoyment of the game, if the structure ever considered using them far more liberally, as contractors, in the vanilla game to beef up content in areas of the game that, due to shifting priorities in game development, might have not become as good as you guys think it should be?

I did post a preliminary proposal on the previous Dev Diary, and I was wondering your own personal opinion on it:

From your place in the center of the balancing act between budgeting, marketing and development, do you think this might be a good idea to implement?

My answer may not be as in-depth as you'd like, but it very much reflects my perspective. If I read your suggestion right, we would be able to promise more content coming for a certain DLC at a later stage, which means that we could increase the value of the DLC (and as a result, possibly price). This is good for always having a steady trickle of content and updates, but it has its downsides:
  • We commit to giving you something later, which is worth the money you're paying. What if something goes wrong, which is a higher risk with contractors? Then we have failed to deliver on your expectations. This may become a headache for us and consumers.
  • Higher prices may need to be set to offset the additional development costs, which increase barriers to entry. We think the current price point range of DLCs is pretty healthy.
These are only business aspects, there are surely development-specific points to be made as well. But I don't know enough about that. Currently, I'm happy with having modders providing great content and additions to players, entirely for free!

Can you guys track which characters are the most commonly played?

I would assume that would be a motivator in targeting areas for DLC.

We don't track it on a character level at this moment.

Wait, wait, wait - do you mean that your developers and your marketers actually work together and get along? What kind of crazy parallel dimension is Paradox in? :)

A crazy dimension where marketing people are passionate about the games they bring to market! :D

But what steps do you take to prevent the intuition from becoming disconnected, particularly in the case of, shall we say, more potentially disruptive or controversial ideas?

Woah. This is a tough one to answer. I don't know that we take any certain steps, other than being open to each other's ideas. I hear the best, worst, craziest, sanest ideas every week in this office, from all directions and places in the company. The topics of these ideas can range from design, processes, business, marketing, HR etc. Everyone shares freely. There is no prestige in keeping your idea to yourself.

Next, would you care to shed some more light on the qualitative data?

I'm not sure what you're looking for here. We use a plethora of different sources for qualitative data: play tests, surveys, discussions on forums, reviews, friends' opinons etc. How we analyze those varies, but we try to pair qualitative with quantitative data to make sure that we get the best information. Some examples of putting qualitative data and quantitative data together:
  • There's a negative review on Steam from someone's who has played over 1000 hrs. How are we to react to this? Clearly we're doing something right.
  • Someone has refunded the game and stated a reason = great data! Thought, intent and action are in synch!
  • Some people complain about a country not being fun to play, but our data shows that it's super popular! Is there really that much wrong with that country, or does it just receive more attention and scrutiny because it's so popular?
  • The opposite: Nobody complains about a certain feature, but no one is using it either. Maybe we should work on that?
What kind of inference do you folks draw from statistics showing people buying all DLCs and then keeping them all on when playing?

... That we're doing a great job? :p On a serious note, with your CK2 --> CK3 reasoning in mind: If we were to make a sequel, we wouldn't automatically conclude that you'd pre-order it due to your stats. It would rather have us make a game that's either different or content-rich enough on launch to attract those who have invested a lot into CK2.

Have you guys thought about putting designs, ideas and concepts through more QA/QC, not just the execution?

We do put designs, ideas, concepts and plans through checks and balances. The Producers at Publishing utilize User Research and other resources to vet these things. Granted, this is rather new in the organization. However, bandwidth is limited so it's not always possible to put every DLC idea/feature/concept through said resources. Whether or not PDS have their own internal checks is not my expertise so I can't really say.