Stellaris Dev Diary #289 - Hide and Seek

[PDS_Iggy]

So I am kind of curious as previously trying to send a ship into a nation that had closed its borders to you was an act of war. what happens when a science ship is unveiled in enemy territory? Does that give a casus beli? Or something to that effect ALSO clearly there needs to be a galactic resolution called "The Treaty of Algeron" that prevents cloaking from any civ or face castigation

If you are caught inside of the borders of an empire with closed borders, you will be forcefully ejected. If you are caught inside the borders of a hostile empire, you will be shot at.

I'm guessing army transports can't be cloaked?

Sadly it was deemed too powerful

I love what I see (no pun intended)

A few questions remain:

• Do fleets have natural cloaking detection or components that give that ability?
• Do we see cloaked ships from subject empires or military allies or federation members?
• Is there a resolution for the Galactic Emperor to outlaw cloaking for anyone but himself?

My gripe with border control mainly comes from the extreme rush I have to do when exploring the L-Cluster. I can't tell my subjects to keep the eff out of it, I can't kick them out and prevent them from stealing my anomalies.

Now that cloaked science vessels can circumvent closed borders, I can already see (or not see) dozens of science vessels swarming into the L-Cluster and stealing what is rightfully mine.

Something like an inverse "forbid system", just not for me, but for everyone else but me. That, plus some ways to set up detection would help.

But I really love the addition of cloaking and the different levels of it. Really well done.

Fleets can not have detection, only starbases can. This was an early decision made for performance.

You can indeed see the cloaked fleets of your allies.

There are no laws that forbid cloaking as of now. It is something we have added to the custodian backlog however.

 

[PDS_Iggy]

Excited for cloaking. Can you tell us where cloaking and anti-cloaking tech is first researched in terms of a timeline within a playthrough? Is there a hard limit on how many ships can be cloaked? I can forsee most people just cloaking their science ships as a matter of course as there is no disadvantages it would appear.

There is no upper limit on how many ships you can cloak, however, do remember the speed malus, you can be sneaky or fast. Both is not as easy.

So what happens when a fleet is detected inside anothers territory and has to decloak?
Instantly goes MIA unless they have open borders? Are there treaties that allow others to send cloaked fleets through your territory and not have them decloak when detected? Any CB or relation penalty when cloaked fleets are detected inside your territory?
Any galactic senate kaws related to cloaking like limiting cloak strength or give a passive detection buff to every system controlled by a member?

If you are detected and they have closed borders to you then you will be kicked out. If you declare war on the enemy while you are undetected you get to keep your fleet there.

 

[PDS_Iggy]

Very Wonderful!!! But I have some questions concerning about the AI empires.
1. As the AI empires look like always using mixed fleet with all ship classes combined, can they utilize small ships' high cloacking strength? Can they organize a fleet only with corvette and frigate to use the cloacking device well?
2. Simillary, it seems that equipping shields on cloacking ships is useless, can AI empires considering that points on the ship design?

The AI that has the "sneak attacker" personality in script will be building special cloaking fleets that they will use for guerrilla tactics.

Why do I want to build a Slingshot to the stars empire that only uses the catapult and jump drives

Grab Stargazers for non existent influence costs

 

[PDS_Iggy]

GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is that a new AI personality or a new component - like conqueror = yes - of the AIPs? I wish the latter.

Component indeed.

 

[PDS_Iggy]

Ok, thats is huge in many ways. Especially the additional boost for psionics and an addition to the subterfuge tradition are really nice.

---
Question: What exactly is the bonus from finishing the subterfuge tradition and what other options exist to bring the cloaking level permanent above 5? Is there a maximum?
---

There is no maximum cap for cloaking, if you stack it enough you can start getting your battleship cloaked

Unrelated to the cloaking and civic stuff in the diary, but is First Contact coming with a new soundtrack like all the previous story packs?

No new music, but we do have a new splash screen!

How will cloaking factor into the calculations for relative strength and diplomatic weight? Will we be able to hide our fleets long term to appear weaker than we are to bait enemies into attacking us?

No hiding your fleetpower and diplo weight When we tested that the AI would cloak their fleet and start fearing for their lives looking for an overlord to protect them.

Just in case gonna copy my question from reddit

***

Now I do have two questions. And first is regarding cloaking just to make sure:



Will the ships with Psionic Shields but not Psi-Phase Field Generator will still suffer for Shield Nullification? It would seem so, but I just want to make sure.

---

And the other question - how does Active Reconnaissance work? Will that science ship orbit one planet and stay there (similarly to the Assist Research) or will it go around scanning inhabited planets/habitats in a system? And a follow-up if it orbits one planet, can I send another Science Ship to perform AC on the same planet to gain bigger bonus or will I have to go for another planet?

You are correct about the Psionic stuff, they need to be combined.

AR I think works additively however I would wait for @Alfray Stryke to be done with their stream first.

What was behind the decision to make the Eager Explorers, and the equivalent civics, civics instead of Origins? They seem like shoe-ins for Origins.

They are definitely something in between. Similar to rogue servitors and criminal syndicates it changes your gameplay a lot more than regular civics. Perhaps we will come up with some name for these types of not quite civic not quite origins.

The main goal here was to play a low tech pre-FTL start that you could combine with things like doomsday or ringworld.

 

[PDS_Iggy]

Will the ai be prohibited to randomly spawn with the new civics?
They really remember me of the old warp drives. Those were abolished as fortified chokes would have been useless against them. How is this getting balanced now beside the starter penalty?
I really like the civics and maybe some of the old 1.9 ftl fans will finally update their game

Yes the AI is very much blocked form those civics, I would strongly advise you to not to force spawn them as the AI will just sit there until they research hyperdrive.

 

[PDS_Iggy]

One thought. If a hostile empire starts to fire onto ur cloaked ships upon detection, what prevents the player from abusing this? For example u have a fleet in raiding stance and move that at peacetime into another empires territory. Now u wait/cause them to discover and shoot at you. This then allows ur big fleet to shoot down the hostile empires and raid/rob their pops their planet during peacetime?

I might not have been clear here, when I said hostile empires I meant empires you are at war with.

Absolutely love this. I've been asking for a low-tech start for a long time (I liked the humble beginnings of the early versions of the game) and this DLC provides several different options for it! Combining the Eager Explorers civic or its variations with one of the new uplifted Origins should make for an awesome underdog challenge.

Cloaking also seems to be done pretty much how it should be, however I hope there is a "decloak" button on the cloaked fleets, so that we can put shields on them and switch between cloaking and shields.

Indeed, if you are cloaked then you can press the same button to de-cloak.

 

[PDS_Iggy]

What model will the new starbase modules use? I’m assuming new assets weren’t in the budget for such a minor thing

We used the Science module which I think hasn't been used for a long time but artists have been making them for all the new species packs @Alfray Stryke correct me if I am wrong.

I have a big question!

In fact, there are planets in the game that you can attack immediately: primitives. Can we raiding primitives on territory of another empire?
Like: declare war, take a system and broke primitives.

No you still need to have them within your border.

 

[PDS_Iggy]

Can we put subspace drives on another ships besides starting ones? How they combine with hyperdrives (will they lose ability to jump)?

Indeed you can. Else, completing the achievement would be pretty hard!

Cloaking Devices + Raiding Bombardment Stance = Profits?

Bombarding uncloaks you

 

[Alfray Stryke]

Okay then, a lot of questions, so answering what I can, as best I remember everything!

I'm guessing army transports can't be cloaked?

Nope

I forgot to ask something on my main post, but as alfaray stryke mentioned on twitter the Whispers will give Cloaking Detection with its sanctum
does it also give Cloaking strength as well?
will the Mark of the Whisperer give extra cloaking strength for example?

The Mark doesn't, but having a Covenant with Whisperers will grant increased cloaking strength empire-wide.

Do fleets have natural cloaking detection or components that give that ability?

Due to performance reasons, cloaking detection was required to be static.

Do we see cloaked ships from subject empires or military allies or federation members?

Yes.

Is there a resolution for the Galactic Emperor to outlaw cloaking for anyone but himself?

No, but it's on my wishlist for the future.

Excited for cloaking. Can you tell us where cloaking and anti-cloaking tech is first researched in terms of a timeline within a playthrough? Is there a hard limit on how many ships can be cloaked? I can forsee most people just cloaking their science ships as a matter of course as there is no disadvantages it would appear.

Tier 1 cloaking requires Tier 2 shields.

Is there a reason for making them civics instead?

We know players wanted to play a "pre-ftl start" and this seemed like the best way of granting that player fantasy and being able to combine it with other origins (e.g. Void Dwellers or KotTG) is fun.

This sounds super fun.
But did i miss it or was there only little info on how combat with a cloaked fleet works? Do you have to decloak to engage? Do you get high Evasion Bonuses? Or is it just a tool to be able to pick favorable fights, but doesn't impact the fights directly?

You get the stat maluses, but does it otherwise not affect combat?

You're forced to decloak when you attack. Additionally bonuses were experimented with (and can be added back in by modders) but were deemed to be too strong during development.

GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is that a new AI personality or a new component - like conqueror = yes - of the AIPs? I wish the latter.

New AI component. Modders can also specify that AI should prefer a given ship role for certain ship types now.

Can you use a jump drive while cloaked?

Yes!

Does a Star bases cloak detection apply to it's entire sensor range?

Yes!

Can Juggernauts detect cloaking? They are starbases after all.

Nope!

Also did they or titans get cloaking related auras?

No.

is First Contact coming with a new soundtrack like all the previous story packs?

No new soundtrack

Are there any space monsters that have some kind of natural cloaking?

No space fauna that have cloaking or detection.

How does the Sentry Array interact with cloaking?

Cloaked fleets are hidden from it, but the Intel it provides may give you enough to see them anyway.

Any effects on claoking from galactic storms?

The speed penalties will stack.

Any consequences, diplomatically or otherwise, if you're caught somewhere you shouldn't have been?

I can't remember.

Do cloaked ships count towards diplomatic weight from fleet power? Or more specifically, can you undervalue your power rating by cloaking some of your fleets?

All ships count towards your fleet power and diplo-weight.

Will the ships with Psionic Shields but not Psi-Phase Field Generator will still suffer for Shield Nullification?

Yes.

And the other question - how does Active Reconnaissance work? Will that science ship orbit one planet and stay there (similarly to the Assist Research) or will it go around scanning inhabited planets/habitats in a system? And a follow-up if it orbits one planet, can I send another Science Ship to perform AC on the same planet to gain bigger bonus or will I have to go for another planet?

Only one science ship conducting active recon above a planet at a time. You'll only get the increase to Max Intel from whichever gives the highest bonus, but the increase to Intel Speed should stack.

What was behind the decision to make the Eager Explorers, and the equivalent civics, civics instead of Origins? They seem like shoe-ins for Origins.

Answered above!

Are there any detector boosts in Traditions? In Unyielding or Discovery, maybe?

Nope!

Also, are you able to put the detectors on an orbital ring? Do they stack with other detector modules in the system, or is it per station?

Nope!

have you considered adding a subterfuge-equivalent ascension perk?

@PDX_Cosmogone wants to add one.

Can you share what tech draw requirements / weighting is for cloaking?

Eh, here's the entire script for the first tech.

Spoiler: Basic Cloaking

tech_cloaking_1 = {
    cost = @tier2cost3
    area = physics
    tier = 2
    category = { field_manipulation }
    ai_update_type = all
    is_rare = yes
    prerequisites = { "tech_shields_2" }
    weight = @tier2weight3

    potential = {
        has_first_contact_dlc = yes
    }

    # Unlocks Active Reconnaissance
    feature_flags = {
        active_reconnaissance_unlocked
    }

    prereqfor_desc = {
        hide_prereq_for_desc = component
        custom = {
            title = "TECH_UNLOCK_CLOAKING_1_TITLE"
            desc = "TECH_UNLOCK_CLOAKING_1_DESC"
        }
    }

    weight_modifier = {
        modifier = {
            factor = value:tech_weight_likelihood
            OR = {
                research_leader = {
                    area = physics
                    has_trait = "leader_trait_expertise_field_manipulation"
                }
                research_leader = {
                    area = physics
                    has_trait = "leader_trait_curator"
                }
                research_leader = {
                    area = physics
                    has_trait = "leader_trait_fotd_scientist"
                }
            }
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = @ap_technological_ascendancy_rare_tech
            has_ascension_perk = ap_technological_ascendancy
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = @federation_perk_factor
            has_federation = yes
            federation = {
                has_federation_perk = rare_tech_boost
                any_member = { has_technology = tech_cloaking_1 }
            }
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 5
            has_tradition = tr_subterfuge_adopt
        }
    }

    ai_weight = {
        modifier = {
            factor = 1.25
            research_leader = {
                area = physics
                has_trait = "leader_trait_expertise_field_manipulation"
            }
        }
    }
}

What model will the new starbase modules use?

The old science module.

Eager Explorers and the other new civic seem to be pretty weak

They're intended to be a bit of a handicap.

Can cloaked fleets use the Quantum Catapult or will that decloak them? Would be pretty cool to be able to catapult your wolfpacks into the heart of the enemy empire, position them and then wreak havoc...

You can yeet cloaked fleets.

Will we be able to cloak planets/habitats
similar to a Chameleon Field Archeotech?

No, you can only cloak ships or observation posts.

Wait a minute - just had a thought. Wont cloaking completely break fighting against the end game crisis?
In order to reach and destroy dimensional anchors, dimensional portal, machine worlds and prethoryn hives, all u have to do is cloak ur fleets, ignore all crisis fleets on the way and head straight for the target.

Good thing the crisis factions have cloaking detection.

Can we put subspace drives on another ships besides starting ones? How they combine with hyperdrives (will they lose ability to jump)?

You can put the subspace drives on any designable ship that can equip a jump drive.

 

[Alfray Stryke]

Could you just show us more - the scripts for component itself?

For the tier 1 cloaking device, why not.

Spoiler: Basic Cloaking Device

# Basic Cloaking Device
utility_component_template = {
    key = "CORVETTE_CLOAKING_1"
    size = aux
    icon = "GFX_ship_part_cloak_1"
    icon_frame = 1
    power = @power_S2
    resources = {
        category = ship_components
        cost = {
            alloys = @cloak_s_t1_cost_alloys
            exotic_gases = @cloak_s_t1_cost_strategic_resources
        }
        upkeep = {
            energy = @cloak_s_t1_upkeep_energy
            alloys = @cloak_s_t1_upkeep_alloys
        }
    }

    modifier = {
        ship_cloaking_strength_add = @very_low_strength
    }

    triggered_ship_modifier = {
        potential = {
            is_cloaked = yes
        }
        modifier = {
            ship_shield_reduction = 1
        }
    }
    custom_tooltip = "CLOAKING_1_TOOLTIP"

    ship_limit = 1

    size_restriction = { corvette frigate crisis_corvette offspring_corvette }
    blocked_by = {
        CORVETTE_CLOAKING_2
        CORVETTE_CLOAKING_3
        CORVETTE_CLOAKING_DARK_MATTER
        CORVETTE_CLOAKING_PSI
    }
    prerequisites = { "tech_cloaking_1" }
    component_set = "CLOAKING_1"
    upgrades_to = "CORVETTE_CLOAKING_2"
    ai_tags = {
        gunship_stealth
        explosive_stealth
        carrier_stealth
        screen_stealth
        artillery_stealth
        brawler_stealth
        energy_torpedoes_stealth
    }

    ai_weight = {
        weight = @basic_cloaking_weight
        modifier = {
            factor = 0
            no_resource_for_component = { RESOURCE = exotic_gases }
        }
        inline_script = ship_components/weights/roles_cloaking_devices
    }
}

 

[Alfray Stryke]

The problem I have with the new civic is that it cant be removed later. Not only is it pretty weak (-10 pops at start), but the worst: One you discovered every system possible, discovery becomes useless, so also the discovery bonus becomes useless.
And you are not able to remove that civic later at a time when discovery is useless.
This slot will always block 1 of 3 civic slots...
I say: Worst civic ever

Something that I've noticed is missing from the tooltips for all four of the new civics is that they give a significant increase to the chance to draw the following techs

• Experimental Subspace Navigation
• Gateway Activation
• Gateway Construction
• Quantum Catapult
• Hyper Relays
• Hyper Drives
• Wormhole Stabilization
• Jump Drives

And the Eager Explorer civic itself gives you 1.5× to drawing Voidcraft techs, which means you're more likely to get better ships sooner.