• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

Hello and welcome once more to another week of Tinto Maps. This week we are going to the lands even further to the East and taking a look at Korea and Japan. So, without further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
Countries.png
Colored wastelands.png

Korea during the Goryeo dynasty was under the orbit of Yuán, and had very close ties with it, with the Yuán emperors taking Korean wives. The north, though, and also Tamna in the Jeju island wouldn’t be unified under Korea until the following Joseon dynasty, so they are still separated although all of them also under Yuán. On the other side, Japan starts in a very interesting situation. After a failed attempt to overthrow the shogunate and restore imperial power during the Kenmu restoration, one of the generals that contributed to such restoration, Ashikaga Takauji, in the end established his own shogunate in 1336 (just before the start of the game). The emperor had then to flee the capital and thus we start with the period of the Northern and Southern Courts, with two opposing Emperors and the shogun fighting for legitimacy. So, although it appears unified at first glance, Japan hides many internal divisions within (more on that later). Further South, the kingdom of Ryūkyū is not yet unified, so the three mountain kingdoms of Hokuzan, Chūzan and Nanzan vie for supremacy over the island.

Societies of pops
Societies of Pops.png

Basically already shown in the Manchuria Tinto Maps, but they need to be shown here too, especially the Ainu.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Dynasties zoom.png
As it happens in China, the “Goryeo dynasty” name is actually not the name of the dynasty itself, which is actually the house of Wang.

Locations
Locations.png

Locations zoom 1.png
Locations zoom 2.png
Locations zoom 3.png
Locations zoom 4.png
Locations zoom 5.png
Locations zoom 6.png
Locations zoom 7.png
Locations zoom 8.png

Provinces
Provinces.png

Provinces zoom 1.png
Provinces zoom 2.png
Provinces zoom 3.png
Provinces zoom 4.png
Provinces zoom 5.png
Provinces zoom 6.png
Here (as well as with the areas next) we have tried to follow the administrative division of both countries in period, but we’ve had to make some adjustments. In Korea, we had to account for the fact that historically, almost immediately after the start of the game the Josen dynasty took over and the administrative divisions are somewhat different, so we’ve adjusted them together (and had to divide some of the bigger provinces for gameplay reasons). In Japan, the administrative divisions remained virtually unchanged since the establishment of the Ritsuryō system in the 7-8th century until after the Meiji restoration in 1868. However, we still had to make some adjustments, and the smaller ones had to unfortunately disappear.

Areas
Areas.png


Terrain
Topography.png
Vegetation.png
Climate.png

Very mountainous and forested areas both, so the few plains have to be taken the most advantage of.

Development
Development.png

Not bad developed areas, but obviously development decreases the further north it goes.

Natural Harbors
Natural Harbors.png


Cultures
Cultures.png

Korea is mainly Korean, and Japan has been divided into four main groups. Besides this, we also have Ainu in the north, Jeju in Jeju island and Ryūkyū in the Ryūkyū islands.

Religions
Religions.png

Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Raw Materials zoom 1.png
Raw Materials zoom 2.png
Raw Materials zoom 3.png
Raw Materials zoom 4.png
Raw Materials zoom 5.png
Not bad areas for resources, and plenty of rice and fish in Japan to get good sushi. The more observant of you will see that the resources of Hokkaido have already been adjusted thanks to feedback from the previous Manchuria Tinto Maps.

Markets
Markets.png

Some may find surprising the presence of Izumi as a Market in Japan, but it is the area that served as the main point of entrance for commerce into central Japan, where the merchant town of Sakai developed, until later Osaka developed under Toyotomi and basically took over that function.

Population
Population.png

Population zoom 1.png
Population zoom 2.png
Population zoom 3.png
Population zoom 4.png
Population zoom 5.png
Population zoom 6.png
Population zoom 7.png
Not much to say here, except that quite a bit of population waiting for some action.

Extraterritorial Countries
Extraterritorial Countries.png

Extraterritorial Countries zoom 1.png
Extraterritorial Countries zoom 2.png
Extraterritorial Countries zoom 3.png
I’m sure many of you were waiting for this. The samurai clans in Japan are represented as Extraterritorial Countries, and we have tried to be as close as possible to their distribution of territory in 1337. As you can imagine, that is not an easy task, and some more tweaking is needed, so if you have any feedback or extra info on that regard it would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, there’s some overlapping of some clans on the same territory and only one name can be shown at a time, so not all names are visible (the Oda clan is still there, I promise), but there are a total of 143 clans (not counting Ashikaga), plus two extra for each of the imperial courts that are present at start. Related to this, each clan will pledge its allegiance to either the northern or the southern court, mainly based on their historical allegiances but allowing a bit of leeway (and those allegiances don’t necessarily have to be permanent). So, as a bit of an extra tease, these are the allegiances of the clans at start (yellow are the north court supporters, blue are the southern court ones, and again keep in mind that only one color can be present even if there’s more than one clan with different allegiances in the same location)
Nanbokuchou.png

And that is all for today. Next week there will not be any Tinto Maps due to being a bank holiday, so next one will be in two weeks for a look further south into South East Asia. See you there.
 
  • 165Love
  • 114Like
  • 4
  • 4
  • 2Haha
Reactions:
WHOO KOREA LETS GO BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


Alright, it's Korea feedback time!

1. The matter of Tamna
I disagree on how Tamna(or Jeju, as it would be called later) is depicted as independent. The Tamna Prefectures that were established after the Mongol conquests of Korea were abolished in 1301, at the request of King Chungnyeol. It became the Tamna Manhobu(10 mingghan), and the control of the island was transferred to Goryeo. It was governed by a Manho sent from Goryeo and two Jeju governors. Although it did have a stronger Mongol influence compared to the rest of the country(the leftover Mongols revolted in Jeju in 1374), it was effectively a part of Goryeo. The local Kingdom of Tamna was abolished in 1105.

2. The dynasty in Ssangseong
The Ssangseong Prefectures were governed by the Jo Clan. There were 4 governors:
  1. Jo Hwi(1258 ~ ?)
  2. Jo Yang-gi(?~1327?)
  3. Jo Lim(1327?~1354)
  4. Jo So-saeng(1354~1356)

3. Location feedback
will add later

4. Province feedback

I mentioned in the Manchuria TM that most of the province names in Northern Korea are anachronistic, but there just isn't a suitable replacement name for them, but as most of these names were changed to modern ones very quickly in the game timeframe, I don't think they warrant serious changes.
The below, however, are names which I would like to be changed.

  1. North Seogyeong - Seogyeong is the old name of Pyeongyang, which was in the Bukgye province in Goryeo times(Seogyeong was renamed to Pyeongyang with the start of the Joseon dynasty). Suggest renaming it to Anbuk after the Anbuk Dohobu(Protectorate - basically a place of high military importance) which was in the coast of that province.
  2. North Chuncheon and South Chuncheon - As for South Chuncheon, possibly rename to Wonju. North Chuncheon definitely needs a rename, but I'm not sure what to change it to, since there weren't(and still aren't) any major settlements there. Maybe Geumgang could be possible?
  3. Daegu - Either rename to Seongju or give the western part of Andong to it and call it Sangju. Even in 1789, Daegu was only the 4th most populous city in Gyeongsang, behind Gyeongju, Sangju, and Jinju. Speaking of which...
  4. Dongnae - Rename to Gyeongju. Dongnae(which would later become Busan) wasn't like that big of a city until the late 19th century(~30000 people in Dongnae province by the late 18th century), and there definitely weren't any trains to it.

5. Area feedback
Why did you guys decide to go with the provinces of Goryeo for the areas? They would be abolished within ~60 years since game start. Is it cuz areas are changeable(Maybe they are and I'm being a massive idiot rn)?
I think it should be changed to either the traditional divisions of Korea or the provinces of the Joseon dynasty
Traditional divisions:
1729865046963.png

Green: Gwanbuk Yellow: Gwanseo Dark blue: Haeseo Lavender: Gwandong Pink: Gyeonggi Red: Hoseo Orange: Honam Cyan: Yeongnam(Jeju can be a part of Honam)

Joseon dynasty provinces:
1729865148418.png

Purple: Hamgyeong Blue: Pyeongan Yellow: Hwanghae Brown: Gangwon Pink: Gyeonggi Purple: Chungcheong Orange: Gyeongsang Green: Jeolla
The only doubts I have about this is Gyeonggi, as it literally means 'close to capital' and the capital could be anywhere. Perhaps a name like Gijeon(old nickname for the region) or something like that would work.
And as I am a Korean, and no Korean can ignore the massive SEA OF JAPAN, I humbly suggest that it be sliced up into west and east like in EU4(who am I kidding lmao)

6. Culture feedback

I was originally gonna oppose the Korean pops in Manchuria since Balhae had fallen ~450 years ago, but I remembered that a ton of Koreans were taken by the Mongols and settled in that area, and that's why a Goryeo royalty was the Simwang(King of Simyang, or Shenyang).
As for Jeju, not so sure - the local Tamna language was definitely gone by this point, but I think the Jeju region was still autonomous and independent(at least culturally) from the mainland enough that a separate culture makes sense.
Also, can we please have an event or whatever to bring back Goguryeo or Baekje or Silla please please please please please (who am I kidding lmao)

7. Other rants

Were there this many gold-producing provinces in other regions? idk, I don't remember, I don't know a lot about production
With the advancement of the rice planting technique in the 17th century it would be good for many of the legume-producing provinces to turn into rice producing ones
A population of 2.5 million seems way too low for this time. Population estimates for Goryeo in the 12th century is ~5 million, and at the end of the 14th century it's around 5.5 million. Population censuses in the early Joseon dynasty show around 4 million people(Yang Seong-ji's Nuljaejip), and accounting for the inaccuracy of censuses at that time, it was likely a bit higher than that, so about 5 million.

Japan looks cool whatever I don't care about japan


Edit: I just noticed that you used the 23 bu system for making the provinces. This was made in 1895(and not in the game timeframe), when the Joseon dynasty was undergoing a series of radical reforms. The Joseon Dynasty for much of its lifetime used the 8 do system, with lower levels of administration like bu, dohobu, gun, and hyeon below it.
 
Last edited:
  • 66Like
  • 15
  • 5
  • 3
  • 2Love
Reactions:
Is this extraterritorial countries something that only Japan has? It's the first time mentioned, right? It offers a very cool base to export via modding to other latitudes, like Arab and Kurd clans/tribes in Middle East.
 
  • 14Like
  • 4
  • 4
  • 2Haha
  • 1Love
  • 1
Reactions:
Japan should be international organization with many daimyos, shogun, imperial court etc

It looks really looking very bland currently no matter what might be hidden inside, I would prefer daimyos to be land based or army based countries becuae daimyos owned land
The daimyo will get ways of getting to own the land and turn into normal, landed tags.
 
  • 98Like
  • 18Love
  • 14
  • 4
Reactions:
Is this extraterritorial countries something that only Japan has? It's the first time mentioned, right? It offers a very cool base to export via modding to other latitudes, like Arab and Kurd clans/tribes in Middle East.
There exist other extraterritorial countries around the world, like bank countries or chivalry orders.
 
  • 70Like
  • 8
  • 4Love
  • 3
Reactions:
Hello and welcome once more to another week of Tinto Maps. This week we are going to the lands even further to the East and taking a look at Korea and Japan. So, without further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
View attachment 1204594View attachment 1204595
Korea during the Goryeo dynasty was under the orbit of Yuán, and had very close ties with it, with the Yuán emperors taking Korean wives. The north, though, and also Tamna in the Jeju island wouldn’t be unified under Korea until the following Joseon dynasty, so they are still separated although all of them also under Yuán. On the other side, Japan starts in a very interesting situation. After a failed attempt to overthrow the shogunate and restore imperial power during the Kenmu restoration, one of the generals that contributed to such restoration, Ashikaga Takauji, in the end established his own shogunate in 1336 (just before the start of the game). The emperor had then to flee the capital and thus we start with the period of the Northern and Southern Courts, with two opposing Emperors and the shogun fighting for legitimacy. So, although it appears unified at first glance, Japan hides many internal divisions within (more on that later). Further South, the kingdom of Ryūkyū is not yet unified, so the three mountain kingdoms of Hokuzan, Chūzan and Nanzan vie for supremacy over the island.

Societies of pops
View attachment 1204596
Basically already shown in the Manchuria Tinto Maps, but they need to be shown here too, especially the Ainu.

Dynasties
View attachment 1204597
As it happens in China, the “Goryeo dynasty” name is actually not the name of the dynasty itself, which is actually the house of Wang.

Locations
View attachment 1204599

Provinces
View attachment 1204608
Here (as well as with the areas next) we have tried to follow the administrative division of both countries in period, but we’ve had to make some adjustments. In Korea, we had to account for the fact that historically, almost immediately after the start of the game the Josen dynasty took over and the administrative divisions are somewhat different, so we’ve adjusted them together (and had to divide some of the bigger provinces for gameplay reasons). In Japan, the administrative divisions remained virtually unchanged since the establishment of the Ritsuryō system in the 7-8th century until after the Meiji restoration in 1868. However, we still had to make some adjustments, and the smaller ones had to unfortunately disappear.

Areas
View attachment 1204615

Terrain
View attachment 1204616View attachment 1204617View attachment 1204618
Very mountainous and forested areas both, so the few plains have to be taken the most advantage of.

Development
View attachment 1204619
Not bad developed areas, but obviously development decreases the further north it goes.

Natural Harbors
View attachment 1204620

Cultures
View attachment 1204621
Korea is mainly Korean, and Japan has been divided into four main groups. Besides this, we also have Ainu in the north, Jeju in Jeju island and Ryūkyū in the Ryūkyū islands.

Religions
View attachment 1204622
Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.

Raw Materials
View attachment 1204623
Not bad areas for resources, and plenty of rice and fish in Japan to get good sushi. The more observant of you will see that the resources of Hokkaido have already been adjusted thanks to feedback from the previous Manchuria Tinto Maps.

Markets
View attachment 1204629
Some may find surprising the presence of Izumi as a Market in Japan, but it is the area that served as the main point of entrance for commerce into central Japan, where the merchant town of Sakai developed, until later Osaka developed under Toyotomi and basically took over that function.

Population
View attachment 1204630
Not much to say here, except that quite a bit of population waiting for some action.

Extraterritorial Countries
View attachment 1204638
I’m sure many of you were waiting for this. The samurai clans in Japan are represented as Extraterritorial Countries, and we have tried to be as close as possible to their distribution of territory in 1337. As you can imagine, that is not an easy task, and some more tweaking is needed, so if you have any feedback or extra info on that regard it would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, there’s some overlapping of some clans on the same territory and only one name can be shown at a time, so not all names are visible (the Oda clan is still there, I promise), but there are a total of 143 clans (not counting Ashikaga), plus two extra for each of the imperial courts that are present at start. Related to this, each clan will pledge its allegiance to either the northern or the southern court, mainly based on their historical allegiances but allowing a bit of leeway (and those allegiances don’t necessarily have to be permanent). So, as a bit of an extra tease, these are the allegiances of the clans at start (yellow are the north court supporters, blue are the southern court ones, and again keep in mind that only one color can be present even if there’s more than one clan with different allegiances in the same location)

And that is all for today. Next week I’ll pass the baton back to @Pavia for a look further south into South East Asia. See you there.
I think it is overly subdivided. Does it really need that much granularity? You can not build anything because it will never be fully employed I think. And locations I think two times smaller than in Manchuria
1729862013576.png
1729861871985.png
 
  • 32
  • 20Like
  • 5
  • 1Haha
Reactions: