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Tinto Talks #35 - 30th of October

Hello everyone and welcome to another Tinto Talks, as it's a Happy Wednesday, the day of the week where we spill information about our super-mega-fantastically-secret game with the code name of Project Caesar.

Today we’ll talk about three relatively related topics, relating to Country Ranks, Great Powers and Hegemonies.

Country Ranks
There are four ranks that countries can have in Project Caesar. It is more similar to EU4 than Imperator in that changing country ranks is something you actively do on your own. Besides having various rules on what a country can do, they also give some benefits, and rather importantly to the player experience, they impact what the countries are called.

The code supports multiple types of ranks at the same level, so modders could in theory add dozens of variants of a duchy rank if they so desire.

The default rank is the County Rank, which all countries default to, unless set up to be something else.

The first rank above that is the Duchy Rank, where you can now guarantee other countries, and a little bit higher diplomatic capacity and power projection. Countries that start on this level include the Duchy of Brittany or the Duchy of Lithuania. To be able to upgrade from a county to a duchy, you can not be in any International Organizations that disallow rank changes, but you also need at least 100,000 pops of your primary culture.

The next rank above that is the Kingdom Rank, which requires 1 million pops of your primary culture and gives a larger diplomatic range and other abilities. This includes countries like the Kingdom of Sweden and the Sultanate of Delhi

The final rank, the Empire Rank, which is the hardest to promote to, allows for a wider variety of diplomatic actions, and other abilities. At the start of the game there is only one Empire in Europe though, the Eastern Roman one. A country must become a Great Power before they are able to attain this rank, and there are special restrictions on Catholic countries from pretending to be emperors without the Pope’s permission.

become_kingdom.png

Yeah, Livonian Order with about 380 Prussians has a bit of a challenge here..

Great Powers
A great power is a country that through advances, population, land area, development, and other factors has risen to be one of the most powerful countries in the world, and as such gains the ability to influence other countries simply by throwing its weight around.

The countries with the highest great power score become great powers. Subjects and countries fighting for their independence may not become Great Powers.

1730281525724.png

The countries you’d perhaps expect to be Great Powers in 1337 right?


Currently there are always eight different countries that are the Great Powers, but this is not a design we are 100% satisfied with. We have been talking about making the amount variable per age, or by using a threshold. We’ve also talked about mechanics for regional powers, but all designs so far have some severe drawbacks, for example how we would define the geographical area to make it feel good.

gp_benefit.png

There are some advantages to being a Great Power after all…


Hegemony
This is another feature that was introduced in the ‘Emperor’ DLC for EU4, but here will be a part of the base game. In that game this was a late game mechanic that would pit the most dominant countries against each other. This created a mechanic that most people never saw, and if they saw it in single-player, it was merely a tool to make the player even more powerful when he had already won the game.

In this game, however, the Hegemony mechanics unlock through an advance in the Age of Discovery.

We currently have three types of hegemony, Military, Navy and Economic, in the game, similar to EU4, and you can only be one type of Hegemony at the same time. We could be open to adding maybe a Cultural Hegemony as well, as the next few weeks Tinto Talks will show things about Culture-related systems.

To proclaim a Hegemony you need to be a Great Power, and then have a bigger army, navy or economy than all other great powers. After you proclaim it, you get a bonus where most of it scales with how long you have held the hegemony.

In a game where a casus belli is not always easy to get, the fact that you can always create a Casus Belli on any hegemon, if you are not one yourself, can be beneficial.

If you ever lose a war as a hegemon, you will lose your hegemony.

And remember, if you lose your hegemony, your prestige and diplomatic reputation will suffer.

hegemon.png

This one is kind of fun to have..

Stay tuned, as next week, we will do the first development diary about our new cultural mechanics in Project Caesar.
 
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1730296917865.png

The idea of being an hegemon nullifying the adverse attrition of nature gives me very "Canute ordering the waves" vibes lol

I will say, I think it's a good idea, yes, to include more than just the old three from EU4. Cultural Hegemony sounds like a good option, but maybe have also one entirely dedicated to diplomatic soft power? Or one dedicated to vassalages? The EU4 distribution, after all, was designed after Diplomacy and Naval matters being fed from the same Diplo-points mana well, which will no longer be the case in this game.

1730297117770.png

I suppose that, ideally, you'd have one hegemony type for every one of the most popular player objectives for video games, but I understand if that would be all tough to fine-tune right now.
 
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Didn't expect JAPAN of all countries to be a great power at this time. Sure they defeated the Mongols but not the first country(or.. any number of consequent countries) to come to my mind when I think of '1330s Superpowers'
 
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As opposed to the peace treaty TT, this looks like it's actually building upon and improving already well functioning systems.

It might be a good idea to also have some mechanics working actively against the hegemons though. And have it based on mechanics rather than modifiers.
 
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I'm really liking the 3d characters compared to eu4 especially just for immersion sakes and better readability, I know they're not a focus but I'd enjoy a larger variety in clothing.
 
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Very interesting. I always thought that EU4's Great Power system was far too binary, either you're a GP (and can do all the GP things) or you aren't, regardless if you're the 8th or the 1st. Is this still the case in Project Caesar?

In terms of the new country ranks, they seem to be well-structured, although I'm not sure what the idea is behind not automatically promoting to a higher tier. I think that worked in Imperator: maybe automatic upgrades for everything except Empire rank?
 
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@Johan Could you please shed some light on how development is calculated? We had some ideas of our own, but we could be quite a bit of the mark.
@Johan
We're doing some calculations for Hungary's cities and towns based on Kubinyi András' method for centrality points calculation:
Instead of specific places however, we're applying a corrected version that can work for entire locations too.

My question concerns development. For locations that include places with atleast some urban functions, could the sum of centrality values being divided with the area(km^2) of the location be a good approach to calculate the relative values of what the game considers "development"?

For locations that lack places with any kind of urban functions, we're planning to use population density values for basis.

To give an idea how this could look like here's a WIP version table with the current calculated values for our suggestion's locations:
IDLocation NamePopulation SizeArea (km^2)Pop. density (/km^2)CentralityRural correctionDevelopmentDev. %Urbanisation
88Buda1004763715,7650,779,55100,00%city
82Esztergom1198578015,3736,346,5458,51%city
77Visegrád37233789,8416,443,3454,49%town
43Pozsony781544917,4115,133,6542,29%town
192Szászsebes16320140111,6443,130,7538,66%city
115Várad20094124516,1438,130,5938,46%city
74Vác44375518,0616,129,2436,75%town
60Eger1382191115,1825,528,0035,20%town
240Újlak1313376017,2919,725,9332,59%town
186Pécs38949170722,8237,121,7427,32%city
23Kassa21318140915,1329,520,9426,32%town
195Zágráb14280141010,1328,220,0025,14%town
37Sajószentpéter1221572216,921419,4024,38%
36Sárospatak24286152815,892918,9823,85%town
13Eperjes18462103017,9319,418,8423,68%town
10Lőcse13362130110,2723,918,3723,09%town
56Miskolc14076116912,0420,717,7022,25%town
178Gyulafehérvár27642210413,1436,917,5422,05%city
31Korpona780310947,141917,3721,84%town
132Kolozsvár13362132510,092317,3621,82%town
48Selmecbánya11220106210,561816,9521,30%town
17Besztercebánya44376716,6111,316,8421,17%
202Verőce533051810,288,516,4020,61%
67Gyöngyös1438295914,9915,315,9520,05%town
52Nyitra16320141611,5321,114,9018,73%town
104Fehérvár1509619287,8328,714,8918,71%town
242Szalánkemén918076911,9311,214,5618,30%
78Hatvan64016889,319,814,2517,92%
16Gölnicbánya52029175,6712,513,6317,13%
86Győr1229115348,0120,613,4316,88%town
41Szikszó24168154515,6419,712,7516,02%town
93Kőszeg584043413,455,512,6615,92%
8Rózsahegy780311676,6914,512,4315,62%
33Újbánya78039278,4111,512,4015,59%
45Ság854382710,331012,0915,20%
29Körmöcbánya46168745,2810,512,0115,09%
100Pest482910844,461311,9915,08%
61Komárom40297355,488,511,5614,53%
166Szeged293413182,2315,211,5314,49%town
143Lendva33153818,694,34557708811,3914,32%
211Csázma24735208011,8923,511,3014,20%town
57Nógrád74729068,251011,0413,88%
204Bodrog357012932,7614,110,9013,71%
215Eszék11220101011,101110,8913,68%
235Diakóvár1229113079,4014,210,8613,65%
267Szávaszentdemeter357011343,1512,310,8413,63%
144Torda20375169212,0418,310,8213,60%town
62Szőgyén729355813,08610,7613,52%
89Sopron12750116310,9612,210,4913,19%
18Privigye69368148,528,410,3112,96%
198Brassó836411397,3511,710,2812,92%
39Nagyszombat1282714189,0514,510,2312,85%
27Tornavár747269510,75710,0712,66%
59Maros923165814,026,59,8712,41%
92Debrecen13898138710,0213,69,8112,33%
121Teke16499124313,27129,6512,13%
14Szucsány668110386,44109,6412,12%
185Csanád1336216558,0715,99,6112,08%town
6Kisszeben1938091021,308,79,5612,02%
113Veszprém1397417008,2216,19,4711,90%town
184Lippa192211721,64119,3911,80%
168Arad918075112,2279,3211,71%
149Aranyosbánya29588603,4489,3011,69%
54Bars15198104214,599,28,8311,10%
103Szombathely1382188315,667,68,6110,82%
124Berényhida765070510,8568,5110,70%
307Kismarton55597227,7068,3110,44%
187Kapronca15045123712,1710,18,1710,27%
20Trencsén12827123210,41108,1210,21%
50Dédes816071111,485,7400702048,0810,15%
180Sződ874767412,985,48,0110,07%
191Szekcső14280102713,918,27,9910,04%
51Tokaj1481689516,5677,839,84%
81Szatmár1677925466,5919,87,789,78%town
147Gyula23467793,0167,709,68%
196Siklós1394991815,1977,629,58%
87Csorna23468342,816,37,569,50%
21Holics29589363,1677,479,40%
228Velike85439508,9977,379,26%
125Körmend11220102011,007,57,359,24%
109Beszterce1621825306,4118,67,359,24%town
114Vasvár1282715318,3811,27,329,20%
224Pozsegavár17340155511,1511,37,279,13%
200Nagyszeben1336216158,2711,77,249,10%
230Titel754817784,2512,77,148,98%
216Monoszló72429917,3177,068,88%
141Somogyvár29156127522,8797,068,87%
136Tapolca29070170017,10127,068,87%
58Szécsény1229112969,4996,958,73%
108Pápa578916873,4311,76,948,72%
53Szölős696213035,3496,908,68%
105Dés1060814547,299,96,818,56%
71Asszonypataka357013242,7096,808,54%
162Varasd918082911,075,534581146,678,39%
145Körösszeg21420183111,7012,16,618,31%
4Lubló578912154,7686,588,28%
127Solt836411107,5376,317,93%
55Somorja1711117569,74116,267,87%
205Baranyavár13770112112,2976,257,85%
226Bács28050238611,7614,76,167,74%
220Csütörtökhely13260117611,277,16,047,59%
140Székelyvásárhely20706150713,7495,977,51%
84Heves1443316838,57105,947,47%
199Hunyadvár357013482,6585,947,46%
102Fegyvernek637511885,3775,897,41%
189Körös1657517129,68105,847,34%
26Kapos14433137710,4885,817,30%
138Kapornak27132175615,4510,15,757,23%
42Gömör23919157315,2095,727,19%
160Nádasd28254159417,729,15,717,17%
183Déva461614453,1985,546,96%
151Kanizsa13260122610,826,75,466,87%
28Csetnek754818314,12105,466,87%
236Dubica66819756,865,35,446,84%
123Bánffyhunyad872116595,2695,426,82%
25Vágújhely724211286,4265,326,69%
24Nagymihály19890151813,1085,276,62%
251Érsomlyó173413351,3075,246,59%
161Küküllővár21420173012,3895,206,54%
158Segesd17034124913,646,55,206,54%
128Nagyböszörmény12750115511,0465,196,53%
137Muraszombat38766116,343,1715223255,196,52%
237Bród13592105312,905,45,136,44%
157Kalocsa418215722,6685,096,40%
253Marót69368268,394,1971794435,086,39%
182Bátmonostor418213873,0275,056,35%
76Muhi14790121212,2064,956,22%
227Valkóvár21318121717,5264,936,20%
155Csáktornya55597627,303,649877714,796,02%
34Galgóc17952133713,436,44,796,02%
47Kisvárda13770125610,9664,786,00%
30Rimaszombat55597657,273,6352614954,755,98%
177Krapina11220108910,305,1507909084,735,94%
190Csehi18437140013,176,5859842534,715,91%
181Torja948612807,4164,695,89%
83Tata780312206,405,74,675,87%
165Simánd14790127111,645,8197247924,585,76%
171Hetes21930125717,445,74,535,70%
222Cseri14280134410,6364,475,61%
252Németi1116915797,0874,435,57%
96Böszörmény780313625,7364,405,54%
176Atád16983122713,855,44,405,53%
111Bolcshida1229113639,0164,405,53%
164Hód-Vásárhely520215943,2674,395,52%
2Bártfa1657518239,0984,395,52%
163Ozora28050160517,4774,365,48%
169Tolnavár1336216058,3274,365,48%
46Huszt173423200,75104,315,42%
266Zimony520212684,105,44,265,35%
179Medgyes1550419108,1284,195,27%
64Udvard49987806,403,2024459784,105,16%
212Gorica1116914577,665,94,055,09%
116Monyorókerék1229112349,964,9804036544,045,07%
98Székelyhíd16830148811,3164,035,07%
231Mezősomlyó578917413,3274,025,05%
150Szentes461613583,405,43,985,00%
40Beregszász1229113838,895,53,985,00%
22Ungvár222220361,0983,934,94%
79Kálló1443318008,0273,894,89%
112Bonchida1925320819,2583,844,83%
49Técső142221140,6783,794,76%
210Temesvár2193022889,588,43,674,61%
120Szolnok418216362,5663,674,61%
175Segesvár930819104,8773,664,61%
44Fülek1389817407,9963,454,33%
214Ozalj16040160210,015,43,374,24%
75Ecsed1925323828,0883,364,22%
208Szalatnok1818220528,866,83,314,17%
5Zsolna418219532,1463,073,86%
234Blagaj1443315359,404,7003468393,063,85%
73Máramarossziget173423620,7372,963,73%
85Nyék22706213,661,8286217132,953,70%
250Osztrozsác836411927,023,50984012,953,70%
126Szászrégen1282714838,654,3239206512,923,66%
152Csíksomlyó948613037,283,6411522392,803,51%
193Sepsiszentgyörgy1550416819,234,6128232052,743,45%
68Tiszalök892513256,743,3681340052,543,20%
69Óvár40299074,442,2216639912,453,08%
7Vágbeszterce1060814787,183,5875438772,433,05%
219Lugos234625650,9162,342,94%
213Rékás780312936,033,016412232,332,93%
194Révkanizsa520210674,872,4370303182,282,87%
146Belényes785430792,5572,272,86%
241Petrinya1397417827,843,9208490712,202,77%
70Nezsider34439343,691,8425368611,972,48%
135Simontornya637512774,992,4964708811,962,46%
119Adony402910623,791,8960516481,782,24%
170Kovácsháza637513864,602,2995261911,662,09%
134Békés696215064,622,311412231,531,93%
156Székelyudvarhely1871724787,553,7767369461,521,92%
91Jászberény357011703,051,5261148691,301,64%
107Nagyfalu357012902,771,3833325971,071,35%
19Breznóbánya12227591,610,80464051391,061,33%
35Malacka17349291,870,93364012821,011,26%
225Becskerek1106724204,572,2867998190,951,19%
308Szoboszló357013892,571,2853011530,931,16%
159Jenő930823144,022,0109395870,871,09%
94Káta234612131,930,96707142020,801,00%
110Cegléd234612721,840,92249365260,730,91%
269Kozara1106727733,991,9953590850,720,90%
245Barlód418217132,441,220424360,710,90%
117Túr173411311,530,76677678610,680,85%
262Orbászvásárhely724224432,961,4822305280,610,76%
129Gyergyószentmiklós11229621,170,58297588010,610,76%
9Homonna724224492,961,4785242890,600,76%
106Karcag11229961,130,56301445830,570,71%
173Maroskapronca9109051,010,50276068850,560,70%
188Zenta173413071,330,66335943510,510,64%
167Abrudbánya173413081,330,66269407960,510,64%
229Karánsebes173414691,180,59009169160,400,50%
95Lápos295819901,490,74329745090,370,47%
218Hátszeg173415331,130,56551155270,370,46%
142Szarvas192216261,180,59107315170,360,46%
207Telek418224011,740,87074721610,360,46%
90Kővár91011670,780,38988450690,330,42%
122Kecskemét293421971,340,66782675130,300,38%
203Fogaras173417650,980,49123122480,280,35%
264Illyéd234620581,140,57008695750,280,35%
248Modrus295824601,200,60132671250,240,31%
32Munkács295824641,200,60015266320,240,31%
97Zilah234622321,050,52561525840,240,30%
172Körösbánya91014360,630,31684796360,220,28%
174Kiskunhalas234628120,830,41712382150,150,19%
298Glamocs173426400,660,32838270250,120,16%
265Keve173429710,580,29178831030,100,12%
1Alsókubin51019580,260,13021574270,070,08%
272Orsova51026090,200,097732754410,040,05%
The percentage values are relative to Buda's development level.
(If I'm already at it, what centrality value would consider being the cut off point for the "city" and "town" statuses?)


Would this approach be in line with what you consider "development", or should we use another one? For example utilising this below?
View attachment 1197349
 
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I would love to see regional powers (and flexible numbers of GP)...but I'd also like to see the game not wait on it, so perhaps it is an expansion's problem.
 
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I don't really like the Hegemony-feature as a classical snowball-feature. If I am the strongest empire on the planet I would expect to receive penalties to make the game interesting instead of bonuses to make the game easier.

I do like that EU4 DLC content is in the PC base game!
 
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1. Are there any pop requirements to become an empire or simply have 1 million primary culture subjects and be a great power?

2. What does power projection do? In EU4 it just gave some buffs if I remember correctly, is it the same for PC? It would be nice if it affected AI behaviour, making them more likely to accept deals, demands and alliances etc with the player
 
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How about making great powers a regional thing, in the way that trading markets divide up local trade power in terms of a proportional pie chart?

Then a hegemon could be a nation which holds great power status in many regions.

One of the advantages of using a regional model is that it gives AI nations a way to distinguish between local great powers, which should be of much greater concern, from distant great powers, and decide their foreign policy accordingly.
 
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I noted that you only stated that modders can add more ranks at each level, but can we add more than four total levels?
 
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Just get rid of Great Power and Hegemony mechanics. They're just gamey 'win-more' mechanics and add next to nothing to the gameplay. They were EU4 feature bloat from some of its worst DLCs.
 
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I thought this game was supposed to be straying away from modifier stacking. Why can't the hegemon system unlock new abilities instead of providing unfounded bonuses such as to attrition or army movement speed.
 
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Hegemony
This is another feature that was introduced in the ‘Emperor’ DLC for EU4, but here will be a part of the base game. In that game this was a late game mechanic that would pit the most dominant countries against each other. This created a mechanic that most people never saw, and if they saw it in single-player, it was merely a tool to make the player even more powerful when he had already won the game.

In this game, however, the Hegemony mechanics unlock through an advance in the Age of Discovery.

We currently have three types of hegemony, Military, Navy and Economic, in the game, similar to EU4, and you can only be one type of Hegemony at the same time. We could be open to adding maybe a Cultural Hegemony as well, as the next few weeks Tinto Talks will show things about Culture-related systems.

To proclaim a Hegemony you need to be a Great Power, and then have a bigger army, navy or economy than all other great powers. After you proclaim it, you get a bonus where most of it scales with how long you have held the hegemony.

In a game where a casus belli is not always easy to get, the fact that you can always create a Casus Belli on any hegemon, if you are not one yourself, can be beneficial.

If you ever lose a war as a hegemon, you will lose your hegemony.

And remember, if you lose your hegemony, your prestige and diplomatic reputation will suffer.

View attachment 1209269
This one is kind of fun to have..

Stay tuned, as next week, we will do the first development diary about our new cultural mechanics in Project Caesar.
As we have hegemony, will there be something like European balance of power? To not allow hegemons control everything
 
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