Victoria to HoI2?

[Jienz]

Just wondering: since the HoI2-exporter built into Ricky isn't very good, has there been any community efforts to rectify the situation? I'm willing to put in some work to making this happen, but if someone already did it's kinda pointless...

 

[ArneHD]

I think there is at least one custom converter, but in my opinion it's not much better than the included converter (Can not find it right now, sorry).

There is also a resource converter (Found here) but I never got it to work.

 

[Jienz]

Thanks Arne!

I realize the timing's the worst imaginable (with HoI3 just released), but would anyone else be interested in this kind of project? Having discussed what we really want from a Vicky -> HoI2 converter it would probably not be that difficult to adapt it to HoI3.

 

[Capt. Kiwi]

I'd be no help at the actual making of it, but I'll speak up just to let you know there's at least one more person keen to use a decent converter - and I'd be happy to help test it out if it gets to that stage.

 

[Taylor]

Thanks Arne!

I realize the timing's the worst imaginable (with HoI3 just released), but would anyone else be interested in this kind of project? Having discussed what we really want from a Vicky -> HoI2 converter it would probably not be that difficult to adapt it to HoI3.

I have thought about doing this and even made some first attempts at reading the save file, but it was too much trouble so I gave up.

Maybe the best approach is to base a converter on the Victoria Editor. Then at least the data from the save file is already read.

 

[Jienz]

I have thought about doing this and even made some first attempts at reading the save file, but it was too much trouble so I gave up.

Maybe the best approach is to base a converter on the Victoria Editor. Then at least the data from the save file is already read.

Well, I've got a parser for the Paradox save game format (someone in the community built it, and they seem to be computer science majors or something equivalent), and I'm sufficiently proficient in programming to use it. So that part shouldn't be a problem. The problem is "the rest"... what do we want it to do?

I've got some loose ideas around basing most of the conversion on what kind of pops you got, ad what they work with (craftsmen and clerks convert into industry, RGO-workers in relevant RGOs convert to resources and so on). The problem with that it that there's the monstrous job of mapping Vicky provinces to HoI provinces, and balancing how much each type will convert into...

Would any of you be interested in helping out with province mapping, and balance testing if I get the nuts-and-bolts in place?

 

[Taylor]

Well, I've got a parser for the Paradox save game format (someone in the community built it, and they seem to be computer science majors or something equivalent), and I'm sufficiently proficient in programming to use it. So that part shouldn't be a problem. The problem is "the rest"... what do we want it to do?

I've got some loose ideas around basing most of the conversion on what kind of pops you got, ad what they work with (craftsmen and clerks convert into industry, RGO-workers in relevant RGOs convert to resources and so on). The problem with that it that there's the monstrous job of mapping Vicky provinces to HoI provinces, and balancing how much each type will convert into...

Would any of you be interested in helping out with province mapping, and balance testing if I get the nuts-and-bolts in place?

The problem with mapping vicky provinces to hoi provinces is that sometimes the vicky map has more provinces in a certain region, and sometimes it's the other way around. Thus what we need is some kind of conversion algorithm that can handle both "multi to single" province mapping and also "single to multi", as well as possible "multi to multi" mapping.

You have to make up some rules for who controls the province then, for example if you're converting multiple provinces to one, you look at who controls most of the provinces, and if that's equal, it's who has most population in that region or something.

When I had the idea of making something like this, I already did a couple of provinces some time ago, and saved it in the following format:

one_to_multiple = {
	49 = {		#iceland
		1
		2
	}#i.e. province 49 in Vicky (Iceland) gets converted to provinces 1 and 2 in HoI2
}

multiple_to_one = {
	24 = {		#(in ireland)
		248
		249
		250
	} #i.e. the provinces 248, 249 and 250 in vicky get converted to province 24 in HoI2

	142 = {
		384
	}#sometimes a province can be converted 1 to 1, too.
}

But now I think a better format would have been

province_conversion_rules = {
	conversion = {
		in = {
			#Vicky provinces here
		}
		out = {
			#HoI provs here
		}
	}
	conversion = {
		#...
	}
	#etc.
}

Because it allows also for multi to multi conversions.

I would be willing to convert more if you'd like.

Another problem is the conversion of tags. HoI2 has less tags than Vicky, so some merging will have to be done. But it has to be done sensibly: for example if Germany never formed, but Prussia has the NGF as satellite, while Austria has the SGF as satellite, then upon conversion, "Germany" in HoI2 should consist of Prussia+NGF, and "Austria" should consist of Austria + SGF. Perhaps the tag conversion rules can be saved as

allowed_tag_conversions = {
	SGF = {
		GER
		AUS
	}
}

and let the converter figure out which one is more suitable?

 

[Jienz]

The problem with mapping vicky provinces to hoi provinces is that sometimes the vicky map has more provinces in a certain region, and sometimes it's the other way around. Thus what we need is some kind of conversion algorithm that can handle both "multi to single" province mapping and also "single to multi", as well as possible "multi to multi" mapping.

You have to make up some rules for who controls the province then, for example if you're converting multiple provinces to one, you look at who controls most of the provinces, and if that's equal, it's who has most population in that region or something.

When I had the idea of making something like this, I already did a couple of provinces some time ago, and saved it in the following format:

one_to_multiple = {
	49 = {		#iceland
		1
		2
	}#i.e. province 49 in Vicky (Iceland) gets converted to provinces 1 and 2 in HoI2
}

multiple_to_one = {
	24 = {		#(in ireland)
		248
		249
		250
	} #i.e. the provinces 248, 249 and 250 in vicky get converted to province 24 in HoI2

	142 = {
		384
	}#sometimes a province can be converted 1 to 1, too.
}

But now I think a better format would have been

province_conversion_rules = {
	conversion = {
		in = {
			#Vicky provinces here
		}
		out = {
			#HoI provs here
		}
	}
	conversion = {
		#...
	}
	#etc.
}

Because it allows also for multi to multi conversions.

I would be willing to convert more if you'd like.

Another problem is the conversion of tags. HoI2 has less tags than Vicky, so some merging will have to be done. But it has to be done sensibly: for example if Germany never formed, but Prussia has the NGF as satellite, while Austria has the SGF as satellite, then upon conversion, "Germany" in HoI2 should consist of Prussia+NGF, and "Austria" should consist of Austria + SGF. Perhaps the tag conversion rules can be saved as

allowed_tag_conversions = {
	SGF = {
		GER
		AUS
	}
}

and let the converter figure out which one is more suitable?

I know the province conversion is hard... another way around it would be to say that ownership of a province in Vicky gives you some amount of points towards ownership of a HoI province. The one-to-many case would be easy, since the owner of the one Vicky province would be the only one getting ownership points for the HoI-provinces. the many-to-one problem would also be fairly solved, since the one with the most points would get it. I think the many-to-many problem would also work out, but I think I need to see a concrete case to be sure.

Of course, since the mapping isn't explicitly decided, it would be harder to portion out the resources afterward...

As for the country tag problem, I guess it's not that bad since we are talking about a many-to-one mapping problem (several tags in Vicky gets rolled into one in HoI), the German Federations is a bit of an exception...

 

[Taylor]

I know the province conversion is hard... another way around it would be to say that ownership of a province in Vicky gives you some amount of points towards ownership of a HoI province. The one-to-many case would be easy, since the owner of the one Vicky province would be the only one getting ownership points for the HoI-provinces. the many-to-one problem would also be fairly solved, since the one with the most points would get it. I think the many-to-many problem would also work out, but I think I need to see a concrete case to be sure.

The ownership points idea seems like a good idea, but how are you going to decide how many points a nation gets for a province ownership?

As for the country tag problem, I guess it's not that bad since we are talking about a many-to-one mapping problem (several tags in Vicky gets rolled into one in HoI), the German Federations is a bit of an exception...

Well, yeah it doesn't happen that much that a vicky tag could convert to several HoI2 tags, but I think it's quite important. Let's say the player has worked hard to not let Germany form as Austria, then it would be really disappointing if Germany still got the south in HoI2.

Actually, I was thinking maybe there could be a couple of tags that have no equivalent in HoI2, that can convert to any country that happens to be most suitable. (For example if Baden is a satellite of France, France should get it in HoI2, not Germany.) All you'd have to do is make a list of tags that should be merged into another country, and have the converter figure out the most suitable way (i.e., if it's not a satellite, then look at alliances, if it's still not decided, look at relations, etc etc).

 

[Jienz]

The ownership points idea seems like a good idea, but how are you going to decide how many points a nation gets for a province ownership?

Well, that would have to be done by hand. Guess some of it could be bootstrapped if we had a Vicky save that had the exact layout Paradox expected there to be at 1936-01-01, but it's probably not worth the extra coding effort.

Well, yeah it doesn't happen that much that a vicky tag could convert to several HoI2 tags, but I think it's quite important. Let's say the player has worked hard to not let Germany form as Austria, then it would be really disappointing if Germany still got the south in HoI2.

Actually, I was thinking maybe there could be a couple of tags that have no equivalent in HoI2, that can convert to any country that happens to be most suitable. (For example if Baden is a satellite of France, France should get it in HoI2, not Germany.) All you'd have to do is make a list of tags that should be merged into another country, and have the converter figure out the most suitable way (i.e., if it's not a satellite, then look at alliances, if it's still not decided, look at relations, etc etc).

Oh, I totally agree, I just think we're getting into details about something that doesn't exist yet...

 

[Taylor]

Well, if you do the coding, I'll be happy to provide some province mappings and do some testing .

 

[Jienz]

Well, if you do the coding, I'll be happy to provide some province mappings and do some testing .

Cool, I'll let you know as soon as I have something remotely workable.

 

[unmerged(91450)]

Well, that would have to be done by hand. Guess some of it could be bootstrapped if we had a Vicky save that had the exact layout Paradox expected there to be at 1936-01-01, but it's probably not worth the extra coding effort.

A more clean solution would be to award the province in dispute to the country with higher prestige. IIRC Prestige doesn't translate over in any way as it stands, so it's not like this would be gamebreaking.

 

[Taylor]

Cool, I'll let you know as soon as I have something remotely workable.

Great, I'll start converting right away! (I'll save it such that I can easily convert it to whatever format you decide on.)

A more clean solution would be to award the province in dispute to the country with higher prestige. IIRC Prestige doesn't translate over in any way as it stands, so it's not like this would be gamebreaking.

I like this idea. Perhaps the best thing would be to have it depend on multiple factors; hard-coded points, population and prestige ratio or something.

 

[Taylor]

I've been looking at the vic2hoiProvince.csv file, from the converter included with revolutions, and it's quite good. It allows provinces to be converted one-to-multiple, multiple-to-one and multiple-to-multiple. The only thing that it doesn't have is a point system, but that can be included later. Why not use that province conversion table?

 

[ArneHD]

I've been looking at the vic2hoiProvince.csv file, from the converter included with revolutions, and it's quite good. It allows provinces to be converted one-to-multiple, multiple-to-one and multiple-to-multiple. The only thing that it doesn't have is a point system, but that can be included later. Why not use that province conversion table?

There are some problems with it, the one that I noticed is that in my Scandinavia games if I control Denmark plus Holstein, I.E. all of Northern Germany bar Lübec and Hamburg it will still give Kiel in HoI to Germany.

Also, shouldn't it be possible to make custom leaders and ministers as well? As far as I can tell both leaders and ministers are listed in the Armageddon save game, so it should be possible.

 

[Jienz]

A more clean solution would be to award the province in dispute to the country with higher prestige. IIRC Prestige doesn't translate over in any way as it stands, so it's not like this would be gamebreaking.

It would be good as a tie-breaker, but I don't think there are that many clear 50/50 cases.

 

[Jienz]

I've been looking at the vic2hoiProvince.csv file, from the converter included with revolutions, and it's quite good. It allows provinces to be converted one-to-multiple, multiple-to-one and multiple-to-multiple. The only thing that it doesn't have is a point system, but that can be included later. Why not use that province conversion table?

There are some problems with it, the one that I noticed is that in my Scandinavia games if I control Denmark plus Holstein, I.E. all of Northern Germany bar Lübec and Hamburg it will still give Kiel in HoI to Germany.

I guess I'll boot strap something from the vic2hoiProvince.csv-file then! (didn't know there was one...) And with the hopefully more customizable point-system there will be plenty of opportunity to balance it.

Also, shouldn't it be possible to make custom leaders and ministers as well? As far as I can tell both leaders and ministers are listed in the Armageddon save game, so it should be possible.

In that case it's certainly an option, it would be nice to have leaders that are better matched to the political situation (not to have only fascists in a democratic Russia for example).

 

[Taylor]

So, how is it going?

 

[Jienz]

So, how is it going?

I guess forward, haven't had enough time to do this... and the "infrastructure" of the program's taking way longer than I had expected. Sorry.