Hello everyone, I'm Tegus, one of the programmers working on Crusader
Kings II. Welcome to the fifth dev diary for CK2 and the first one written
by me. In today's dev diary I'm going to talk a bit about the map and why
we've chosen to implement a new one in CK2.

As you all know, in our games the map is an important tool for both
displaying information and setting the mood of the game. In HoI3 we had a
grayish map that we felt was appropriate for a war game. We took this map
and altered it slightly when making Victoria 2, but this time the map was
drawn with vivid colors to portray the progress of the era. The next game to
use the map was Divine Wind because we all felt that EU3 was in need of a
graphical face lift. While this map technology looked good in the
mentioned games, there were certain technological limitations which we
wanted to improve upon or get rid of.

With CK2, we have devoted time to rewrite the graphics code for the map
from scratch. We are back to a pure 3D map similar to the one used in EU3:
Rome. We have visible topology and you will be able to rotate the world
around the way you please. While neither the technology nor the art assets
are in any way final, we do feel that the new map already has great
potential and is a big step in the right direction towards our visual
goals. Hopefully this new tech will also span multiple games, so we
can steadily improve it.



To be fair, if I would describe what we have done with the map so far, it
would just be sentence after sentence of technical mumbo-jumbo, so I'll
spare you the details. Let's instead focus on what visual details that
have been improved and what we want to add before the game is shipped.

We've improved the looks of the water significantly and added refraction
so you can actually see topology under the ocean surface. Aerie has taken
the time to find real-world topology data(although we've exaggerated it
somewhat), it definitely gives a cool feel to the terrain. Borders have
also gotten some love and now use a new system which enables us to make
them much smoother. Much of the previous jaggedness is gone. We've also
begun to implement and test a more detailed lighting model, which we will
continue to improve upon until we release the game. Another cool
feature(which isn't really part of the map) are the units, whose tabards
now show the heraldic flag of the unit leader.



But there are still some things which we're missing. We need trees and
rivers. We need to add province names and realm names, which exist in all
our latest games. I'd like to add more information to borders, so borders
between two realms are colored by the realms' respective colors. There are
of course lots of more things we want to do, but I won't spill the beans
just yet.



All in all, we are very happy with the way the new map is coming along.
Hopefully you will enjoy it as well once you get to play the game!

Fredrik Zetterman, Deluxe programmer, currently working on Crusader Kings
II

 

[vadermath]

You've answered without reading my post, didn't you?

No, I only missed the actually important bit. Sorry.

 

[LordofSaxony]

I *thought* I read somewhere, maybe even in this thread, that the CK2 province count was 800-900 provinces total? If, they were to realistically include each and every province that was around during that time period, how many provinces would be in the game then? 1,500? 3,000? But, like I said earlier I'm fine with the current province count, although a more realistic number would be cool, I understand that this is a game and they only have so many developers and $$$ being put towards it. Also, like what someone said earlier, quality over quantity, but of course that could be arguable. I would rather have less provinces, and much more to do, then more provinces, with less to do. So if the reason of the lower province count is because they would rather spend development time on game depth and features, I'm cool with that.

 

[Sute]{h]

Just thought I would post a map of medieval Denmark. The syssels (marked in colors) would each constitute a county in CK terminology. Though the syssels where administrative units ruled by councils rather than actual counties (the title of count wasn't introduced in Denmark until 1671). Sjælland had four syssels, but these had no worldly power only ecclesiastical power. Administrative_division_of_denmark_in_medieval_times.jpg

I don't think every syssel should be in the game though. It just illustrates that strictly following medieval administrative divisions would be to extreme. Far to many provinces for Denmark. It would be cool if the province borders followed syssel lines as much as possible though.

 

[Drachenfire]

I feel the need to.... say how excited I am about the game (now that the one succession law is included). I respect what is being done for CK2!!! I really do! And all that I am after is for a map and set up that will be fun to play on, that is reflective of the history and period, and that will be available to the widest community of players as well. My critique here of the map is meant as positive criticism from the heart. I know that is what most of us here are after as well.

Admittedly, I play in a region that is, usually for most players, not given a second thought, except as an easy title to grab (its like taking candy from a baby). I try to balance my needs for game enjoyment on an accurate Wales map and character set-up with the considerations of the wider scope of CK. I know others are doing the same for the regions that they play in as well, and I support them.

That is why I have worked well with Jord and Veld to be sure that the best and most accurate set up is available for their modes. For the most part, both have incorporated just about all of my suggestions in both of their projects. The only disagreement we had come across was not the number of provinces, or even that Wales needed an income boost, but what to raise that income level to. And I thank them both for the opportunity for allowing me to work with them in their projects.

So, again, my critique here is meant from the heart as I do look forward to the game.

I, as seen in my previous posts in this thread, would like to see more provinces with better borders, but that increase shouldn't be limitless, that's why I mentioned Mappa Regnorum. And there are other mods, which have improved the map; and in general mods have improved the game, using this might be helpful.

Besides define large; some would also like to include as much historic counties and duchies as possible.

If, in a map mod, Wales end with 12 provinces, then it seem that there should be one province per shire in England, one province per Pagus in France and one province per Gau in Germany etc. It mean lots and lots of provinces, but if some lads find it fun and if the engine permit it, and if their computers are powerful enough why shouldn't they try it?



Demesne penalty is counted in baronies/settlements and not in counties/provinces.

In the end, whether or not Wales has six or sixty provinces, if the borders of the map remain as they are, I am sure that there will be moders ready to redraw the provincial borders and add the counties we need shortly after CK2 is released. I know I appreciate Cool-Toxic's map.

What I do sincerely ask of the devs is, however, to allow more land tags to be available for moders to add these much needed provinces. As it is, Kurak and Fiftypence and others have to raid other counties and sea-zones to repurpose them for use as counties where people are playing. Also, I ask to please leave more duchy tags so that moders have plenty of them also, so that other duchy titles do not have to be raided as well.

Remember in CK provinces are not power. Desmene income is because it's directly related to the number of troops you can raise. So moders were able to keep the game fairly balanced simply by not increasing the total gold a region produced when they added provinces.

So in DF's ideal map the Welsh King ends up with a lot of crappy provinces, which busts his Desmene limit to hell, but no more money than he did under the original ridiculously small 6-province Wales. He's gained a couple cosmetic things: more Welsh Courts means more Welsh brides, and it's harder to get a claim on his King-title because claim-costs for a Duke or King-title are directly related to the number of titles in a realm. But he's also lost the ability to own the entire country personally, and spread out his already meager troops among more vassals.

IRL Wales has 13 Counties. England has 48. In CK it has about 30. I'd agree with him if I didn't think that the Baronies could fill the role of most of those provinces.

Nick

I think in Mappa Regnorum and in Cool-Toxic's map, England has over 40, so the ratio is nearly correct verses counties. And it should be noted too.... that the islands of Great Britain are resized in CK and in these other maps as well to allow smaller provinces to be depicted as well.

In part you are correct Nick, but there is more to it. When Kurek’s map of Wales (and Ireland and Scotland for TASS) was adopted for the DVIP and TASS; Jord, Veld, I and others had discussions about the income level of the British Isles… and ultimately it was agreed to increase the income level of the 11 Welsh counties in both modes.

When we increased the number of provinces for Wales we did so based on the principle historic principalities; Gwynedd, Deheubarth, Powys, and Glamorgan… each receiving a ducal tier. Excepting for Powys which had two provinces, the other three principalities each received three counties or regions. And, as you noted, the map essentially did reflected the preserved counties of Wales. Historically, each province itself was fought over between the Normans and the Welsh, and in each of the provinces reflected there were lordships, “baronies”, which passed hands between the Welsh and English for over two-hundred years until the Edwardian Conquest. As the four ducal-tiered princes could themselves have vassals, they were able to assert themselves in a manner that was more or less historical and was not reflected in the vanilla set-up.

With these corrections, the increased number of provinces with a modest increase in gold, the scenarios more or less reflected the history pretty well. The increased number of provinces allowed for greater nuance in game play for a player, as Marcher lordships and Welsh principalities were more accurately portrayed, and the increased number of provinces meant that the King of England was unable to ram over Wales a-historically too early. A player of a Welsh dynasty had time to, and the opportunity to, create the Kingdom of Wales and form alliances to preserve the realm against an England. A player of Wales and the AI England had to acquire nine of the 11 provinces to create the “king of Wales” title, and in truth the map that that player created in order to create that title more or less looked like the map of Wales that historically was created by Llywelyn the Great, Llywelyn the Last, and others. While not easy, the set up was far more enjoyable to play then the vanilla set-up. And it made sense.


Can baronies stand-in for the counties accurately, as those counties reflected regions which were them-selves often divided? I do not think so. Baronies are supposed to represent castles, settlements, monasteries. The 11 provinces adopted for the DVIP and TASS reflected comital level tiers and their influence over entire regions, with each one itself comprising many castles, settlements, and monasteries.

Ideally, I would see a ducal level Principality of Deheubarth with three county level vassal regions: Ceredigion, Dyfed, and Ystrad Tywi. In Dyfed, for example, you would have the bishopric of St. David’s, as well as Pembroke Castle and Carmarthen Castle, Kidwelly Castle, and Fishguard. Whereas if you keep to the standard vanilla set up, the Principality of Deheubarth currently extends to cover Glamorgan and Gwent- which it never historically has. The region of Dyfed would have to cover not only Dyfed but also Ceredigion and Ystrad Tywi as well, and all the castles, settlements, and monasteries contained therein.

One of the reasons small countries like Wales needs the additional provinces is to reflect the nuance of Marcher… frontier…. warfare that cannot be reflected on a Wales map of six provinces. In CK1, the Wales kingship title was more or less candy for the taking for the player of England. And historically this was not the case, as it took over 200 years for England to conquer and absorb Wales… roughly half the timeframe covered by CK. There was no ‘manifest destiny’ for England to conquer the isles, yet in CK1, the effect is such.

Another drawback for having these vast regions represented as baronies is, to my knowledge, the baronies cannot themselves change hands. So, if a “barony” was supposed to represent Ceredigion, then it could not be detached from the Principality of Deheubarth and “conquered” by Gwynedd… therefore aiding Gwynedd in forming a “kingdom” of Wales.

 

[Kallocain]

What I do sincerely ask of the devs is, however, to allow more land tags to be available for moders to add these much needed provinces.

This has been in our last few games actually.

 

[Woody Man]

Yes, I'm sure the Clauswitz games have had near unlimited tags?

 

[el_zilcho321]

Wow! The terrain map looks exceptional! I don't play Victoria or HoI and I don't own EU: DV so I havn't seen any new 'fancy' terrain.
Where will the PTI be in Russia and around the Aral Sea, will it be similar/same to CK1? Will Finland and Sweden be linked unlike CK1?

 

[ZomgK3tchup]

I don't really want to read through 22 pages of text, so I'm just going to ask here.

Is the map hand drawn again or is it traced from actual maps like in Vicky 2? The funky looking maps in EU and HOI were very displeasing.

 

[SolSara]

I don't really want to read through 22 pages of text, so I'm just going to ask here.

Is the map hand drawn again or is it traced from actual maps like in Vicky 2? The funky looking maps in EU and HOI were very displeasing.

It's a mixture of both. We took the old map from CK1, took an actual map and distorted it a bit and then the CK1 map was traced upon the real map, changing coast lines and other things so it should look more like a real map than the old CK1 map.

 

[Caranorn]

It's a mixture of both. We took the old map from CK1, took an actual map and distorted it a bit and then the CK1 map was traced upon the real map, changing coast lines and other things so it should look more like a real map than the old CK1 map.

Did you consider that coastlines in some areas changed a lot since the middle ages?

 

[SolSara]

Did you consider that coastlines in some areas changed a lot since the middle ages?

We do have considered the change of coastlines and our excellent artist have worked hard with them.

 

[IndoEsia45]

My first look at CK2.

One thing interest me, will the Character texture be procedural so that the picture of a heir of a King for instance, could change dynamically following their previous descendant facial features? (No fixed texture of a character)

 

[podcat]

My first look at CK2.

One thing interest me, will the Character texture be procedural so that the picture of a heir of a King for instance, could change dynamically following their previous descendant facial features? (No fixed texture of a character)

look is inherited though a simple string we call "character dna". When a child is born it gets a mix of both parents dna. each part of the dna describes how a part of the face should look (nose, eyes, chin, hair color etc). These dna string can be scripted (or modded) for characters, so if we script someones great grandfather to look a specific way the game will extrapolate on that if you start playing his great grandson so he might end up carrying the "family nose". Characters also have other properties affecting look (hair style, age, clothes) that has nothing to do with dna, these are not inherited but can be based on work position/wealth/social status/traits or whatever you want. I hope that was clear enough.

Example: both your character and his wife are blond, and she gives birth to a black haired daughter. This might be cause for concerns about her honesty (there is a small "mutation chance" however to simulate genes from ancestors popping back up etc so it might be a coincidence, but currently the chance is only 2-5% or so)

 

[Polar Mongoose]

Example: both your character and his wife are blond, and she gives birth to a black haired daughter. This might be cause for concerns about her honesty (there is a small "mutation chance" however to simulate genes from ancestors popping back up etc so it might be a coincidence, but currently the chance is only 2-5% or so)

Will children have potraits in CK2? Or will we have to wait until a child turns 16 before discovering that something isn't quite right?

 

[Conqueristo]

look is inherited though a simple string we call "character dna". When a child is born it gets a mix of both parents dna. each part of the dna describes how a part of the face should look (nose, eyes, chin, hair color etc). These dna string can be scripted (or modded) for characters, so if we script someones great grandfather to look a specific way the game will extrapolate on that if you start playing his great grandson so he might end up carrying the "family nose". Characters also have other properties affecting look (hair style, age, clothes) that has nothing to do with dna, these are not inherited but can be based on work position/wealth/social status/traits or whatever you want. I hope that was clear enough.

Example: both your character and his wife are blond, and she gives birth to a black haired daughter. This might be cause for concerns about her honesty (there is a small "mutation chance" however to simulate genes from ancestors popping back up etc so it might be a coincidence, but currently the chance is only 2-5% or so)

Anyone remember Creatures? They did their DNA fairly well, probably a bit too complex for CK 2...but might be worth looking at for ideas

 

[unmerged(61650)]

One good question, Will be deformed people caused by disease or because their parents are relatives?

 

[SA_Avenger]

Will children have potraits in CK2? Or will we have to wait until a child turns 16 before discovering that something isn't quite right?

haha good question actually, so we know if we have to get rid of the wife & child before it's too late O_O *maniacal laugther*

 

[Duzaroo]

I believe he stated in another forum that the side picture was only temporary and that there will be actual portraits later.

 

[telesien]

look is inherited though a simple string we call "character dna". When a child is born it gets a mix of both parents dna. each part of the dna describes how a part of the face should look (nose, eyes, chin, hair color etc). These dna string can be scripted (or modded) for characters, so if we script someones great grandfather to look a specific way the game will extrapolate on that if you start playing his great grandson so he might end up carrying the "family nose". Characters also have other properties affecting look (hair style, age, clothes) that has nothing to do with dna, these are not inherited but can be based on work position/wealth/social status/traits or whatever you want. I hope that was clear enough.

Example: both your character and his wife are blond, and she gives birth to a black haired daughter. This might be cause for concerns about her honesty (there is a small "mutation chance" however to simulate genes from ancestors popping back up etc so it might be a coincidence, but currently the chance is only 2-5% or so)

It would be nice to have some typical features for various families, that would most likely tend to pass on (like 90% of male members of certain dynasty having the same type of nose), but that would be just a nice eye-candy

 

[Captain Frakas]

look is inherited though a simple string we call "character dna". When a child is born it gets a mix of both parents dna. each part of the dna describes how a part of the face should look (nose, eyes, chin, hair color etc). These dna string can be scripted (or modded) for characters, so if we script someones great grandfather to look a specific way the game will extrapolate on that if you start playing his great grandson so he might end up carrying the "family nose". Characters also have other properties affecting look (hair style, age, clothes) that has nothing to do with dna, these are not inherited but can be based on work position/wealth/social status/traits or whatever you want. I hope that was clear enough.

Example: both your character and his wife are blond, and she gives birth to a black haired daughter. This might be cause for concerns about her honesty (there is a small "mutation chance" however to simulate genes from ancestors popping back up etc so it might be a coincidence, but currently the chance is only 2-5% or so)

Will the clothes also evolve with time ? The fashion in the XIth century wasn't the fashion of the XIVth century. The plate armor of some characters portraits will not fit the XIth and XIIth century.

It's great that traits affect portrait.

Could a graphical mod add more age steps ?