Werewolf CIII: Kleptocratic Overlords and the Worldwide Revolution

[Ironhead 5]

He didn't achieve victory because you denied him victory. His course of action was the most viable way for him to win. Had he accepted the TIE between k-59 and himself, the village would have won, yes, but at the price of his head. Who are you to say your winning is more important than his winning?

Had you looked at the evidence presented you, you would have voted k-59. Split tried to get you to do that, but you failed him. As such, he failed you.

The object is to win -- not survive. Surviving to see your team lose = losing. Dying but your side ultimately wins = winning. If we as a community place surviving over winning, this game will continue to be very screwed up -- it is a shame that this game in particularly is besmirched by Split's actions, as it was an otherwise brilliantly crafted and executed game.

 

[randakar]

It was clear that his intent was to vote snipe to save himself -- which the last wolf needs to do to win. A villager does not.

Not everyone can come up with logic and arguments. He tried to convince you. It didn't work. You didn't even respond. What was he supposed to do?

He didn't achieve victory because you denied him victory. His course of action was the most viable way for him to win. Had he accepted the TIE between k-59 and himself, the village would have won, yes, but at the price of his head. Who are you to say your winning is more important than his winning?

Had you looked at the evidence presented you, you would have voted k-59. Split tried to get you to do that, but you failed him. As such, he failed you.

Exactly.

 

[drxav]

Really? I thought the way the village got its act together after the JL imploded was admirable. To still bring it down to the wire, even after losing the entire JL so early, is a pretty solid feat of arms.

The village went from utterly silly to sublime to utterly and irrevocably being a bunch of twats. Despite the 3 wolves down day the village hasn't produced any valuable move. The double killing of Jopi and theFreeman, the "oh well I'll vote johho because I feel like it", and now this.

No really, this village was meant to suffocate horribly from its own stupidity. No one produced clear analysis or bothered reading those made, and there was a huge lack of involvement.

Disappoint.

 

[reis91]

What I really don't get though is why the black wolves didn't start to gun for the JL after WD got lynched, starting with Syber or Ironhead, at the very least.
I think both sides got a little too confident at some point

I already answered that to you, but I will say it again, the hunt on Black Daimon really pissed them off against the red wolves.

 

[AOK. 11]

No really, this village was meant to suffocate horribly from its own stupidity. No one produced clear analysis or bothered reading those made, and there was a huge lack of involvement.

Disappoint.

I hope you stick around and play some more. I really do. We need players like you.

The same goes to all the other new players.

 

[Ironhead 5]

Not everyone can come up with logic and arguments. He tried to convince you. It didn't work. You didn't even respond. What was he supposed to do?

Good question -- what was he supposed to do? Let's see, option A is to go ahead and vote k-59, a likely wolf, and ensure goodie victory. Option B is to fuck his own side in the ass. Hmmm... what was he supposed to do?... That's a tough one, randakar. I'll need to think it over.

 

[EUROO7]

The object is to win -- not survive. Surviving to see your team lose = losing. Dying but your side ultimately wins = winning. If we as a community place surviving over winning, this game will continue to be very screwed up -- it is a shame that this game in particularly is besmirched by Split's actions, as it was an otherwise brilliantly crafted and executed game.

I agree. I never play to survive to the end, because that would be futile. I play to cause as much damage as I can to the opposing side before my untimely and completely unfounded murder at the hands of vile idiots.

But some people play to win. For example, you played the last day to win. If you had looked at the evidence, you would have realised k-59 was more than obvious. You took the safe way and ignored all the past voting behaviour and everything that had happened until then and voted the two players you were not sure were goodies. If you had been a better villager, you would have won.

 

[AOK. 11]

Good question -- what was he supposed to do? Let's see, option A is to go ahead and vote k-59, a likely wolf, and ensure goodie victory. Option B is to fuck my own side in the ass. Hmmm... what was he supposed to do?... That's a tough one, randakar. I'll need to think it over.

It takes two to tango. If you expect others to sacrifice themselves to help you win, then I am afraid you are going to be very disappointed when dealing with many players. Including myself. I think SPLIT screwed the implementation, but the idea was fundamentally sound. You simply do not like the outcome. That was how best to protect his interests.

 

[randakar]

Yes, WD's death kind of got the ball rolling. Over me. And you.
I take pride in knowing that I was solely responsible for hunting sbr though, even if the rest went poorly

Why sbr? He was a red wolf. If you thought that that is what he was, you should have just gotten the village to lynch him.
As it was it was a bit of a "what? Again? What are the other wolves smoking?!?".
Maybe it's just me - but I really hated that hunt. Walrus and the_hdk were pretty inactive. Ciryandor dead on day 1. sbr was the one packmate I looked forward to working with. Except that you guys killed him
Maybe it's just my curse. I've seen this happen in the last 2-3 games I was a wolf. Just kinda takes the fun out of it.
Then again, bloody people thinking that me being inactive means that I must be a wolf is what really takes the cake. I just got a son, folks. I have a job that comes and goes, a social life that does the same, and work that .. well, does the same.
If I'm inactive I may just be that - busy.

 

[drxav]

I mean, the hunt on me, why? With black pack hunting next night, drxav gave you two extra hunts. I had my previous order on jacob-lundgren, your brutal wolf, also, as AOK can attest.

You said you'd hunt me, that's called self-defense. If you were so rooting for the villagers why didn't you get in touch with us explaining your strategy?

 

[reis91]

Drxav, you do need to clear your inbox. I'm past the frustration, but that move was one of the things that gave the blacks a shot at victory. Still, I'm glad that the village took advantage of my marty-wagon to get jacob killed. Also, marty would have found me suspicious (and he did even got to imply that in a PM) if I didn't come up with something crazy.

Also, thanks for hosting a great game. Had a lot of fun playing it, especially on that last day.

 

[drxav]

Good question -- what was he supposed to do?

YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO KILL JOHHO IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! Stop whining.

 

[Ironhead 5]

I agree. I never play to survive to the end, because that would be futile. I play to cause as much damage as I can to the opposing side before my untimely and completely unfounded murder at the hands of vile idiots.

But some people play to win. For example, you played the last day to win.

There are those who play to win, even if it costs them their lives -- like you described of yourself -- and there are those like Split whose only objective is to survive. This is a vile objective. Imagine what it does to the gameplay mechanics... suppose Split was a scanned and cleared member of the Justice League with no special role whatsoever. Is it appropriate for him to out the important goodies, one at a time, to ensure that the wolves hunt them and not him? He'll surely survive -- there is no reason to lynch him since the JL knows he is a villager, and the wolves are too busy eating the seer, priest, etc to hunt him. And besides, he is providing them information. At the end of the game, when the wolves stand triumphant, he can say "Ha! I survived, and the rest of you losers died! I rule!" Is this the way WW should be played?

It takes two to tango. If you expect others to sacrifice themselves to help you win, then I am afraid you are going to be very disappointed when dealing with many players. Including myself. I think SPLIT screwed the implementation, but the idea was fundamentally sound. You simply do not like the outcome.

I do not like the outcome, jonti does not like the outcome, twenty dead goodies do not like the outcome... even Split does not like the outcome because in the end it is all the same, everyone good is dead and the baddies win. It was poor luck for him, but Split was looking at slim survival odds anyway. His choices were die and see the baddies win or die and see the goodies win. How is this even a difficult choice?

 

[drxav]

Drxav, you do need to clear your inbox. I'm past the frustration, but that move was one of the things that gave the blacks a shot at victory. Still, I'm glad that the village took advantage of my marty-wagon to get jacob killed. Also, marty would have found me suspicious (and he did even got to imply that in a PM) if I didn't come up with something crazy.

I get the mechanics and all.

I just don't understand why you blame me for doing that. You threatened me and you tried to get Marty99 killed (the only person I trusted and worked with). I see a wolf I kill it, moreover if he's showing his fangs.

 

[Ironhead 5]

YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO KILL JOHHO IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! Stop whining.

It was good strategy to tie that day (the math was on our side). marty and I had previously discussed possible targets to tie, he threw johho's name out there, so I cast my vote on him -- and let the rest of you figure out if he was a good choice. Whether or not he was a villager, his death was still good policy because it would ensure better odds for us on the last day. It didn't have to be johho, but it had to be someone who was an uncleared player.

 

[randakar]

There are those who play to win, even if it costs them their lives -- like you described of yourself -- and there are those like Split whose only objective is to survive. This is a vile objective. Imagine what it does to the gameplay mechanics...

I've said before in the General Thread that that is a problem. I still believe that. Winning should be possible by making your team win. Even if that means that people who get hunted on the first night can still win the game.
But this sounds like an excellent topic to move to General.

 

[drxav]

It was poor luck for him, but Split was looking at slim survival odds anyway. His choices were die and see the baddies win or die and see the goodies win. How is this even a difficult choice?

Seriously.

Why did you vote him anyways? 3 on 1, what are the chances the wolf gets away. You claim you knew all along it was k-59, then just vote k-59. K-59 won't snipe himself out with 3 votes on him. THE_SPLIT voted k-59, had you voted him as well he was surely dead.

 

[reis91]

You said you'd hunt me, that's called self-defense. If you were so rooting for the villagers why didn't you get in touch with us explaining your strategy?

So I get it completely spoiled by trusting in a wolf, plus being unable to re-use it in the next couple games, and think on something from scratch?

I didn't trust you. But I knew there were better wolves down there. The rest, I'd rather not say. I call it a king up my sleeve (reis is portuguese for king, btw). Too bad you had the ace there.

 

[Ironhead 5]

I've said before in the General Thread that that is a problem. I still believe that. Winning should be possible by making your team win. Even if that means that people who get hunted on the first night can still win the game.
But this sounds like an excellent topic to move to General.

Winning IS possible even if you are dead. Even the villager who had no contribution other than being eaten on the first night is a member of the winning team if the villagers win. Who says that only survivors share in the glory?

 

[Najs]

Why sbr? He was a red wolf. If you thought that that is what he was, you should have just gotten the village to lynch him.
As it was it was a bit of a "what? Again? What are the other wolves smoking?!?".
Maybe it's just me - but I really hated that hunt. Walrus and the_hdk were pretty inactive. Ciryandor dead on day 1. sbr was the one packmate I looked forward to working with. Except that you guys killed him
Maybe it's just my curse. I've seen this happen in the last 2-3 games I was a wolf. Just kinda takes the fun out of it.
Then again, bloody people thinking that me being inactive means that I must be a wolf is what really takes the cake. I just got a son, folks. I have a job that comes and goes, a social life that does the same, and work that .. well, does the same.
If I'm inactive I may just be that - busy.

I failed to notice that the deadline was an hour later than I thought, panicked because I hadn't heard from the rest of the pack and sent in a hunt order. Sbr died because one of his post was the last I saw before I went to send the pm. I also managed to votesnipe an hour early while I was at it.