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really?

so, my throwaway votes are more important than knowing his vote SHIFTS? are you kidding me?

holy jeeze louise. do you think anyone can deduct anything out of my votes? no. it's impossible. i voted for seen because the_hdk had done so right before me, and I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO VOTED VAINGLORY. It's throwaway. There's nothing out of it. On the other hand, we have falc, who switches from throwaway to second-placer AFTER a wolf gets jumped. and he does this at the last minute.

and guess what - YOU ARE DEFENDING HIM. left and right. up and down. if he's a wolf, then you are too. if he's not, then you probably aren't. there's a lot more to be learned from falc than from me. one of the things we learn is whether or not you should be the next guy run up the gibbet. at this point, i'm thinking that yes, you should be run up tomorrow.

Calm down.

1) I did not refer only in regard to your votes, but also to all the votes yesterday.

2) I am only defending him insofar as I believe you are a better target. I also have no problems in tying you up with him or hdk, but I suspect the village won't accept a tie. It makes no sense to stop going after you just because you point out that it makes me a more likely packmate of Falc. I don't play with much regard to personal safety, so I will not gimp my efforts with such considerations.

And the truth is that I have much more information on Falc than on you, especially in what concerns behavior. It would be hard to deduce your identity through conventional analysis. This line of reasoning also points to hdk, that I want to see run up as well.
 
that's a pretty big vote. also, i'm mostly relying on your analysis.

Fair enough, but there's plenty of other people my analysis lists as potential suspects.

also, you see both falc and reis switch votes onto najs after the votes went onto Vainglory on day 1. one could argue that the pack remaining consists of those three.

now, that's hardly likely, as there's little to go on. but falc claiming that "he had hoped for a wolfish move" after his own... reis91's defense of falc... Vainglory's attempt to get a bandwagon going on myself (KNOWN VILLAGER)... I dunno. I do know that I'm not a wolf. I am pretty sure that randakar and kingepyon are not wolves.

this is just what I see.

additionally, let's look at falc's vote yesterday. he was a throwaway onto reis91.

then things got serious, and he moved to try to block the vote onto the wolf. i mean, yeah, stupid villagers do that all the time. but wolves do it too. heck, that's what they are supposed to do. falc in particular makes a comment, "I WAS HOPING FOR A WOLFISH MOVE AFTER MINE." Who does that? Guilty people do that.

falc is a wolf.


You know, in all this time I've played with you this is the first time I see you actually make a case. Not just that, but a *decent* case.
If you're a wolf you're getting an A for effort from me, that's for sure. But .. I don't think you are. Not after this.

I need a count.
This game is starting to heat up nicely, I'll tell you that.
 
I like this guy. He's like Vainglory, but he doesn't make my head explode with walls of text and fancy words.

So basically he's like me except for the fact he's nothing like me. What marks me out is the fact that I bother to present detailed cases as to why people are likely or not likely to be wolves; Randy is much the same in the weight of what he posts, Joeb also tends to think pretty hard. King and Falc tend to present more concise arguments. You're more likely to follow what others say. The other thing is that I'm often arguing on numbers - I might as well make up a chart of "when will parity occur" and stick it in my sig, I say it so often (incidentally, with 9/3 it's 3 days to parity) - whereas Yakman usually posts short, unsupported claims. Nothing like him in playstyle.

Yakman, your point about Falc is well made: he moved to save a wolf. That bears saying, sure. But that's pretty normal Falc anyway: there was a frontrunner way out so he made it closer. Does that exonerate him? No. But it adds to erode the case against him. Yeah, he voted against King. Guess what? King was on my suspects list too. Rendap was low on my suspects list, King was higher. He'd thrown his vote away on Day 1, and I usually advocate going for throwaway voters. He'd been quieter than usual. I'd probably have voted King yesterday in that situation. Villager Falc would have made that move, certainly. Wolf Falc? I'm not sure.

Then we have all the problems with the case against Falc. Why hunt Boris and narrow the list for us when there's a sucker among the immediate targets? If we hit a sucker first and the other two are wolves it might be enough to throw us off the scent. At the least it provides a 1/3 chance of the village pursuing the wrong guy if they go after the King voters, whereas hunting Boris means 100% chance we look at two wolves. It's an idiot strategy, and betting on dumb wolves has never yet paid off in my experience.

Furthermore, if Falc is a wolf, and Reis isn't, what was Falc doing? Are the other two wolves sitting about with their thumbs up their bums? Why risk Falc in trying to save Rendap and not go all out in trying to save Rendap? Half the pack's at risk already, might as well go all in because parity with 2 wolves is a long way away, and parity with 4 is only 2 days away. If Falc and Reis are wolves, where's the last one? It's definitely not any of those who voted for Rendap in that case - alibiing on a packmate when it will blow up 2 more is a hopeless strategy. If Falc and Reis are wolves, the third wolf is among those who weren't voting either frontrunner. If only Falc is a wolf it still makes it very unlikely there are any wolves among Rendap's killers; why would Falc ignore his packmates' strategy, and why would his packmates ensure the death of a packmate? In this case it's likely that 2/3 wolves are among those who didn't participate in the vote. And if Falc and Reis both aren't wolves, then the wolves maybe alibied on Rendap, and definitely some are among those who didn't participate. I see no concrete case against Falc, or Reis, only the obvious conclusion. Wolves love obvious conclusions: they're easy to sell to the village and don't incriminate you when they go wrong.

Also, where are you getting this idea you're cleared? On Day 1 you totally ignore the strategy that works and start a 4th candidate. If anything that makes you suspicious because you are trying to obscure information and you helped create an unstable situation. A single unvote from Najs onto a third party would have left four dead villagers. On Day 2 while everyone else is getting involved in voting the two frontrunners, you throw a revenge vote on me, who at least shouldn't be run up on consecutive days making it a total waste of a vote by any measure, then you don't move it for the rest of the day. Throw away votes, refusal to cooperate in creating information: this makes you suspicious, not a cleared villager. At least I can stand on the fact that I was among those run up on Day 1 that the wolves made no effort to save, but actually had votes on me... And now you're pushing hard for the obvious conclusion. Not looking good, Yakman, not looking good.
 
really?

so, my throwaway votes are more important than knowing his vote SHIFTS? are you kidding me?

holy jeeze louise. do you think anyone can deduct anything out of my votes? no. it's impossible. i voted for seen because the_hdk had done so right before me, and I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO VOTED VAINGLORY. It's throwaway. There's nothing out of it. On the other hand, we have falc, who switches from throwaway to second-placer AFTER a wolf gets jumped. and he does this at the last minute.

and guess what - YOU ARE DEFENDING HIM. left and right. up and down. if he's a wolf, then you are too. if he's not, then you probably aren't. there's a lot more to be learned from falc than from me. one of the things we learn is whether or not you should be the next guy run up the gibbet. at this point, i'm thinking that yes, you should be run up tomorrow.

Me and reis in a pack? For some reason I can't shake the feeling that would have resulted in a whole lot more blood on the walls by now...

Anyway, I find it real nice of you to admit you've been deliberately casting throwaway votes the past two days. Nice wolfy behaviour, there.

Also, get your timing right. There was an hour to go to the deadline and I knew I'd be behind my PC for the entire hour.


BTW, Reis, what's your take on snoopdogg? He's so quiet, but that's a rookie play, but that makes it a sort-of-smart vet play... Can't figure him out this game.
 
Except that Yakman and HDK had 3 while I had 1 before you came along.

Are you trying to turn the 2-man race into a 3-man race to save your packmates, perhaps?

Obvs. I don't think we have anything too great on the other candidates, so I don't mind you being in the mix too. And I didn't know what the count was at the time.

I don't think Falc is a wolf. His vote was too damn obvious, pushing King up against rendap. If it was wolf play it was very poor, to say the least. So poor that it might actually have been very cunning wolf play :p

Not too big on ruling out something for being 'too obvious' usually until I know I should for a given player. Some players will always push up a villager when their packmate is in trouble. Will Falc? I have no idea, but with nothing too great on anyone it's enough for me to be good with running him up today.
 
Not too big on ruling out something for being 'too obvious' usually until I know I should for a given player. Some players will always push up a villager when their packmate is in trouble. Will Falc? I have no idea, but with nothing too great on anyone it's enough for me to be good with running him up today.

You do have a point there. Wolves will tend to try to stick to their villager identity if possible, and Falc pretty much told us himself he tends to make ties like that as a villager. And as a wolf, he definitely wouldn't want to change that behaviour too much lest he look suspicious.

But vain also has some good points here. And honestly, we have plenty of information on him right now. I'd rather see actual pressure on people that have avoided the limelight so far.

Which leads me to the obvious question .. count, please?
 
Me and reis in a pack? For some reason I can't shake the feeling that would have resulted in a whole lot more blood on the walls by now...

Anyway, I find it real nice of you to admit you've been deliberately casting throwaway votes the past two days. Nice wolfy behaviour, there.

Also, get your timing right. There was an hour to go to the deadline and I knew I'd be behind my PC for the entire hour.


BTW, Reis, what's your take on snoopdogg? He's so quiet, but that's a rookie play, but that makes it a sort-of-smart vet play... Can't figure him out this game.

Shows up indistinct on the wolfdar. I must say though that he usually plays above (both in visibility and contribution) than what he is playing now. Perhaps we ought to get some votes on him tomorrow to see if he chips anything in.

Can we get a votecount, please?

PS : Vainglory, you're making so much sense I'm starting to think you are a bloody wolf.
 
(3) Yakman - Johho888 (277), Reis91 (293), Vainglory (300)
(3) the_hdk - Randakar (279), Falc (299), Seen (303)

(2) Falc - Yakman (275), Snoopdogg (307)

(1) Teep - Esemesas (309)

Count, as I make it out.

@ Reis

Dash! I thought my cover was foolproof! Hunt Reis!

@ Randy

Looks like we could have a 3-wide race today, Falc, hdk, Yak. I'm down for that.
 
BTW, Reis, what's your take on snoopdogg? He's so quiet, but that's a rookie play, but that makes it a sort-of-smart vet play... Can't figure him out this game.

Like Randy said, I'm usually fairly quiet (except to bluster), especially early on when there's not really much to go on. I don't have any great suspects and the village seems to be doing pretty well so far. When those things aren't the case I tend to get more vocal, but there's not all that much to say right now imo.
 
I think Yakman is the best lynch today. Rendap acted in such a way (pushing me) that could have been protecting either Boris or Yakaman. We know Boris is a villager, so Yakman is the best choice.

Falc is not so high on my list, just because an obvious attempt at saving a wolf is more likely to be a confused villager than a wolf.

Vote Yakman
 
Yakman, your point about Falc is well made: he moved to save a wolf. That bears saying, sure. But that's pretty normal Falc anyway: there was a frontrunner way out so he made it closer. Does that exonerate him? No. But it adds to erode the case against him. Yeah, he voted against King. Guess what? King was on my suspects list too. Rendap was low on my suspects list, King was higher. He'd thrown his vote away on Day 1, and I usually advocate going for throwaway voters. He'd been quieter than usual. I'd probably have voted King yesterday in that situation. Villager Falc would have made that move, certainly. Wolf Falc? I'm not sure.
wolf falc wouldn't move to save his packmate? off of a throwaway? but villager falc, oh, no question that he'd do that. yeah.

are you kidding me? this is your serious argument? that he'd act LESS rational with MORE information?

Then we have all the problems with the case against Falc. Why hunt Boris and narrow the list for us when there's a sucker among the immediate targets? If we hit a sucker first and the other two are wolves it might be enough to throw us off the scent. At the least it provides a 1/3 chance of the village pursuing the wrong guy if they go after the King voters, whereas hunting Boris means 100% chance we look at two wolves. It's an idiot strategy, and betting on dumb wolves has never yet paid off in my experience.
this is what wolves do: randomly pick people on nights one and two unless they have other info. and the other thing they do? they hunt people who have won games recently. guess what Boris has done? but why should this count towards any analysis? the wolves BY THE RULES cannot continue feuds from other games. they don't know who the seer is and who isn't. whoever is hunted on the early nights is just a shot in the dark for them, just like the first lynch or two is a shot at the dark for a village.

EDIT: Fundamentally, it does not matter WHO the wolves hunted in determining their identities, UNLESS the victims had fingered at least one other player as a wolf. And fingered does not mean tha the accusation was correct - more likely it was incorrect and the murder is committed to draw the noose on a villager rather than a wolf. Essentially, your argument is that wolfish behavior is not a sign of wolfishness, and that other players should be voted as wolves rather than the wolfish ones. Now, this line of argument won you the last Lite Game... but you were a wolf then, and likely a wolf now.

Furthermore, if Falc is a wolf, and Reis isn't, what was Falc doing? Are the other two wolves sitting about with their thumbs up their bums? Why risk Falc in trying to save Rendap and not go all out in trying to save Rendap? Half the pack's at risk already, might as well go all in because parity with 2 wolves is a long way away, and parity with 4 is only 2 days away. If Falc and Reis are wolves, where's the last one? It's definitely not any of those who voted for Rendap in that case - alibiing on a packmate when it will blow up 2 more is a hopeless strategy. If Falc and Reis are wolves, the third wolf is among those who weren't voting either frontrunner. If only Falc is a wolf it still makes it very unlikely there are any wolves among Rendap's killers; why would Falc ignore his packmates' strategy, and why would his packmates ensure the death of a packmate? In this case it's likely that 2/3 wolves are among those who didn't participate in the vote. And if Falc and Reis both aren't wolves, then the wolves maybe alibied on Rendap, and definitely some are among those who didn't participate. I see no concrete case against Falc, or Reis, only the obvious conclusion. Wolves love obvious conclusions: they're easy to sell to the village and don't incriminate you when they go wrong.
and sometimes, they stand out. when villagers look at them critically and point them out. and sometimes, "third parties" like to come in and distract from the wolves. and sometimes, that last wolf, he just does whatever. you are arguing that the village should ignore the two best candidates because they cannot identify all three. this is stupid and counterproductive. just like what wolves would want.

Also, where are you getting this idea you're cleared?
the GM told me.

On Day 1 you totally ignore the strategy that works and start a 4th candidate.
no strategy works on day 1. sorry. doesn't happen. the village has no information. you might have a different opinion on this - i dunno. but i voted who the_hdk had voted on - seen - in the post immedieately above mine. i didn't start a new candidate.

If anything that makes you suspicious because you are trying to obscure information and you helped create an unstable situation. A single unvote from Najs onto a third party would have left four dead villagers. On Day 2 while everyone else is getting involved in voting the two frontrunners, you throw a revenge vote on me, who at least shouldn't be run up on consecutive days making it a total waste of a vote by any measure, then you don't move it for the rest of the day. Throw away votes, refusal to cooperate in creating information: this makes you suspicious, not a cleared villager. At least I can stand on the fact that I was among those run up on Day 1 that the wolves made no effort to save, but actually had votes on me... And now you're pushing hard for the obvious conclusion. Not looking good, Yakman, not looking good.
i didn't throw a revenge vote on you. i threw a "hey, this is a guy who's doing a LOT of writing. wolves tend to try to make lots of analysis and look helpful. and... this is what VAINGLORY does when he's a wolf."

and also, guess what - I'm not a fan of ties. i could have jumped onto king, or whoever, from you ---- and life would be that much easier for wolves and clueless villagers to ruin everything. i made my vote thinking, as i think now, that you are a likely wolf, and i stuck with it.
 
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Yakman said:
they don't know who the seer is and who isn't. whoever is hunted on the early nights is just a shot in the dark for them, just like the first lynch or two is a shot at the dark for a village.

BS. They hunt people they think might have been scanned (which is why a few months ago most veterans died early), people who get too cleared, to keep the suspect pool big enough, et cetera.
 
BS. They hunt people they think might have been scanned (which is why a few months ago most veterans died early), people who get too cleared, to keep the suspect pool big enough, et cetera.
and that narrows down the possible wolves to who?

oh wait. you proved my point. victim selection on night 1 does NOT indicate who might be a wolf.
 
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and that narrows down the possible wolves to who?

What's your point? Saying that all three hunts were random doesn't narrow down the list in and of itself. In fact, the point Reis makes narrows it down when you look at the Boris hunt. Even if you were randomly selecting hunts, you'd have to be a total moron to leave a random hunt standing that will narrow down the suspects list. Thus, the hunt wasn't random, but had intent. Knowing it wasn't random, we can safely conclude it was unlikely the wolves would make a hunt that narrows down a suspects list that actually has wolves on it.

Smart wolves don't hunt randomly. On Night 0 they might, but some pick players they deem to be a threat, say I'd hunt Esemesas because he's been in a pack with me many times. On Night 1 there are already more and less suspicious people, and more and less dangerous ones. In the last game I left Bagricula in because he was a delightful village chew toy. To hunt him would have been idiotic. You don't hunt randomly past Night 0.

oh wait. you proved my point. victim selection on night 1 does indicate who might be a wolf.

Yes, it does, as I've just demonstrated.