Manufacturing Italy: A PoN GC (... sort of)

[Sir Garnet]

1. a group that increase consumption levels for each type of population;
2. a group that either increases the impact of dissatisfaction on militancy (ie makes dissatisfied people more militant); or,
3. makes militant people more quickly dissatisfied.

These last two are not quite the same. Some techs mean that once they are dissatisfied, they are more likely to shift to demonstrations, strikes or outright revolt. Others mean that once they are in some form of revolt, their satisfaction drops more quickly. In combination, potentially a vicious cycle.

Your only defences are ensuring you sell enough to meet their needs and passing the various decrees such as education, trades union legalisation, social security and so on that remove militancy.

A good clear description I should like to draw from if you are comfortable with the nuances.

I do miss the Vicky range of political and social paths available. The idea that progressive/socialist measures are what satisfies the militants is a conventional idea that works for Continental Europe from the tail decades of the 19th C but does not fit all places. It does, however, even things and make social issues more straightforward for game purposes.

Its for these reasons I now think the Ottoman Empire is not going to recover. It clearly has a widespread revolt problem, I doubt it can buy in much, it will need to keep taxes high in an attempt to recover its fiscal position.

The Ottomans can solve both the revolt and unrest issues wiht troops rather than costly social legislation. Sending in the troops is likely to work out badly for liberals but is the simple and effective first resort of autocrats. The long and detailed description of national attributes specifically discusses militancy effects of some of these attributes among other fascinating aspects, verified by looking at the database modifiers or dev discussions.

Which I think tells us very little. Its not quite a black box model, not least you can see a lot of information, but its clearly not one you are designed to interact with or use.

I am impressed that you attempted the arduous task of computing unemployment. It would be nice to know what effect it has, and confirm whether an inactive structure counts its people as employed or unemployed.

 

[Powloon]

Very in depth updates! It is very interesting (at least for me) to see the state of your economy in the 1870s not least because it gives me a good idea of what I'll be facing (at least when real life lets me return to gaming that is)

Regarding your point about industrial density and population I have seen the manpower efficiency dip when I have added factories to a province with a lot of factories which I believe relates to the size of your available urban population ie I did not have enough trained workers in the region to support the structure at full efficiency. This seems to sort it self out after 6 months or so which I think must be simulating the flow of people from the countyside coming in to the towns to take up employment.

Again looking at your economics post I think the single most important aspect as you mention is to meet your domestic demand. Reading your AAR gave me a real heads up to the shortage of luxuries I was going to face when Italy unified. Focusing on making sure I had enough luxuries to meet demand in the post unification period meant the period of domestic chaos in my game was shortened considerably.

Can't wait to see what happens next!

 

[loki100]

A good clear description I should like to draw from if you are comfortable with the nuances.

I do miss the Vicky range of political and social paths available. The idea that progressive/socialist measures are what satisfies the militants is a conventional idea that works for Continental Europe from the tail decades of the 19th C but does not fit all places. It does, however, even things and make social issues more straightforward for game purposes.

The Ottomans can solve both the revolt and unrest issues wiht troops rather than costly social legislation. Sending in the troops is likely to work out badly for liberals but is the simple and effective first resort of autocrats. The long and detailed description of national attributes specifically discusses militancy effects of some of these attributes among other fascinating aspects, verified by looking at the database modifiers or dev discussions.

I am impressed that you attempted the arduous task of computing unemployment. It would be nice to know what effect it has, and confirm whether an inactive structure counts its people as employed or unemployed.

In general feel free to lift anything you want, if it helps in some way with the game manual and documentation then its something I'm more than happy to contribute too (indirectly)

Good, in a way, that the Ottomans can recover, as in the earlier discussion, once I have taken all I want, I'd like them to have some robustness - not least it might mean some other juicy morsels (Kuwait?) remain available for me later in the game. But mainly as a barrier to the Russians.

Closed factories don't consume labourers, I've checked that. I forget how to read the two numbers (65/65), I think the second is potential employees (& one on strike retains that number), the first is actual.

What I remain utterly unclear over is if it matters. I think in those population tables I can see some evidence of internal population drift in Italy, but I am not sure whether or not it matters that say 33% of the potential working population in Turin is unemployed (& its worse almost everywhere else in Italy). I worked it out to test a proposition (I guess its the social science researcher in me), but having found some data I remain utterly unsure what it implies o

Very in depth updates! It is very interesting (at least for me) to see the state of your economy in the 1870s not least because it gives me a good idea of what I'll be facing (at least when real life lets me return to gaming that is)

Regarding your point about industrial density and population I have seen the manpower efficiency dip when I have added factories to a province with a lot of factories which I believe relates to the size of your available urban population ie I did not have enough trained workers in the region to support the structure at full efficiency. This seems to sort it self out after 6 months or so which I think must be simulating the flow of people from the countyside coming in to the towns to take up employment.

Again looking at your economics post I think the single most important aspect as you mention is to meet your domestic demand. Reading your AAR gave me a real heads up to the shortage of luxuries I was going to face when Italy unified. Focusing on making sure I had enough luxuries to meet demand in the post unification period meant the period of domestic chaos in my game was shortened considerably.

Can't wait to see what happens next!

I think with hindsight I should have spent more of that post-unification cash and capital mountain on luxuries. I could have paid over the odds for gold etc and probably got the dissent down a lot faster.

Interesting about productivity. I think there is something going on, not least there are constantly hard to explain variances in the F11 screen - just I tend to file it under 'not much I can do about it'. I'm pretty sure that unless you really really over concentrate, there is no impact of any real concern (unless you then went and lost the province in war)

Next update on the Empire, no real game mechanic issues, just setting out where I've got to and the challenges I face. Last of this sequence will be on the army and that will be a bit of a mix as I will try and explore a few mechanisms along with presenting my OOB.

Then into 1873 ... which so far (I'm up to August) is NOT proving the nice quiet period I had fantasies of experiencing

 

[loki100]

The New Italian Empire

This post will concentrate on my colonial Empire. It will be much less about the game mechanics and more an attempt to review where I’ve got to, and explore what I now need to do to gain the full advantages of my current holdings.

As such, it is another indication of why I need a period of relative peace. I’ve expanded faster than I have developed what I have, and I need to bring this into balance as soon as I can.

Overview​

Now one challenge with exploring the Empire is to find a decent summary map. The colonial affairs screen is the only real option and the green blobs show where I am active.



In effect an arc running from Dubai to Mombassa on the western edge of the Indian Ocean is one group. And then, separated from this, is my new acquisition in Libya.

To answer an earlier question. If all this Empire was in my SOI I would gain 2 PPs per turn, as a lot isn't I only gain 1 PP (note that slowly SOIs can shift so maybe over time this extended region will be acknowledged as properly part of Italy - at least by the other colonial powers).

At some stage the issue of filling in the gaps needs to be addressed. Ethiopia is a very tempting and prestigious target (as below), Eqypt/Palestine more of interest in terms of easing my communications (it takes about 24-26 days from Italy to my Red Sea ports).




A second problem is gaining an overview of the population in the colonies. You can expand the population screen to include non-national holdings but it then needs a lot of fiddling with to produce something of any use.

What I’ve managed to do is to sort on nationality, so any province which has Italian nationals shows up below



So Mogadishu is the most ‘Italian’ of my provinces (I have sent several groups of settlers there). Compared to the Italian provinces, note the low development levels (only a few provinces over 70%, many well below that) and the low education levels (5-15) and also the low ‘working age’ populations (the rebel held regions of Libya show as 0).

One task is to improve the rail net, both for troop movements and to improve development levels (and in turn efficiency of resource extraction).

Interesting, but in truth, not much that can be done with that information.

So, lets look at the sub-regions of my Empire in more detail.

Libya​

This shows the extent of my basic problem. I hold Tripoli (am building up the depot and harbour) with a fortress brigade and that western most province (even the rebels don't want it?). Garibaldi will move here soon to start taking control of the rest. But at the moment it is full of rebels, sand, shell holes from the Italian navy and not much else.



There must be more resources so I will send a prospecting team when the region is a bit calmer and see what else exists. But my war gains from the Ottomans really are more a matter of prestige than real assets.

Oman/Yemen​

This is different. My logic to grabbing this area was two fold. The resources (coffee and opium) and the location. In combination with my holdings around Djibuti this gives me a lot of control over the exit to the Red Sea. All I need is for someone to now build the Suez canal and this makes sense.

Anyway lots of good things there and so far not fully exploited.



In total there are 3 opium resources (only 2 being exploited at the moment), 5 Coffee (again only 2 being developed), 1 dye and 1 cow. I’ve added more information for Hoeideida and Sanaa as they are my core provinces. They are also the only colonial provinces with a train line built (hence the relatively high development level).

And fairly well garrisoned.



Which, if anything I need more of as it is a fairly volatile region. Also those highly useful native units are very fragile as I have no replacement chits for them.

Djibuti/Massawa​

This is different again. Not much of any real value (the coffee resources are all in Ethopia) but the value is in the potential. Not only as a source of control over the Red Sea but as the base for a future expansion into Ethiopia. Worth stressing this will be a serious war – at least one of their columns is over 1000 power, in poor terrain etc.



Djibuti is my main military base, it’s a level 5 port, level 3 depot and well garrisoned. I also have a transport squadron in the wider region so those units can be deployed to any emerging trouble spots.

The resources are mostly fish and dyes.

Somalia/Somaliland​

This is my colonial holding to the south of Ethiopia. The Ethiopians hold one coastal province breaking my land connection (not that marching overland is a good idea). However, it does have better resources.



And a very weak garrison, I need to improve this as soon as I can. My regional transport fleet will be ordered back to Djibuti, but has just taken a colonial brigade to my last colonial region in this wider area.

Kenya/Zanzibar​

To the south, I have grabbed this region. It is outside my SOI but adds nicely to my control of this arc of provinces on the NW side of the Indian Ocean. Fruits and Opium are both useful as is the potential (if I ever gain the ability to build explorers) to move inland.



There is a colonial brigade there at the moment, protecting my interests and the Prussians are playing around in Dar es Salaam.

Persian Gulf.​

If I can hold it and develop this region, it has the potential to be (rather literally) the jewel in my crown. The resources alone are worth real investment as is the longer term potential to become the power in the wider Arabian region.



I have a colonial and garrison brigade there at the moment.

The main problem is that British outpost. I really do not want a colonial war with the UK.

But fully exploited (I have no mines there yet) and with railways this will go a long way to satisfying my internal demand for luxuries and helping my balance of payments by selling the surplus.

Key to all this, is I have a lot of potential undeveloped from my gains so far. I reckon 2-3 opium resources, 3-4 gems, 1 oil, 2-3 coffee (all these I can sell or will be valuable). My Empire sort of makes geographic sense, and the logic of adding Egypt and Palestine is clear. Ethiopia for the prestige and just maybe take the upper Persian Gulf region if the British stay away and the Ottomans fall apart.

But I have a lot of expenditure to make the best use of what I already hold, as well as to make sure it is properly defended.

 

[Soulstrider]

[Italian Accent] That Empire, she is a beauty. [/Italian Accent]




Oh one question, is there any way to check if there are any undiscovered resources in a region?

 

[Director]

I assume there are ways to modify how hard you push on the British presence in Qatar? Or will you decide the rest of Abu Dhabi is sufficient and leave them be?

 

[Powloon]

Good comprehensive update as always. Not sure why you would want to go to war in Ethiopia though? Looks like your average CP there is already at 27 within a year , year and a half you could acquire it peacefully through colonial actions (protectorate and colony) plus you would then gain that 1000 per stack for war with Egypt after a formal colony is declared.

The explorer thing seems odd I definitely have them to build in my game have you lost a few destroyed and possibly the pool is empty?

 

[Stuyvesant]

Much, much potential - both for the good (exploiting resources and the locals!) and for the bad (upsetting the natives! Great power rivalries!).

It's interesting to see how well the game seems to model real-life colonial ventures: the lure of extra resources and prestige that turns into a sinkhole of your resources, the fact that you constantly have to push further to protect your gains as they finally become profitable... There's a compelling urge to expand just a little further, set up an extra buffer zone, see if you can seize that one more prize (see your comment about Kuwait).

You have a nice Empire on you there, mister, but - like your inherited colonial troops - it seems very brittle.

 

[calestos]

Much, much potential - both for the good (exploiting resources and the locals!) and for the bad (upsetting the natives! Great power rivalries!).

It's interesting to see how well the game seems to model real-life colonial ventures: the lure of extra resources and prestige that turns into a sinkhole of your resources, the fact that you constantly have to push further to protect your gains as they finally become profitable... There's a compelling urge to expand just a little further, set up an extra buffer zone, see if you can seize that one more prize (see your comment about Kuwait).

You have a nice Empire on you there, mister, but - like your inherited colonial troops - it seems very brittle.

Unexplored areas.

 

[Sir Garnet]

I never checked since I only built it myself as France, but maybe the Suez Canal tech would allow you to build it. OR simply mod or add to the event to give Italy the opportunity. Historically Italy did not have these early and extensive Imperial ambitions, but it would be the natural interested party in these circumstances. The AI probably won't mind so long as it is open to them.

 

[Ricardo Rolo]

I agree with Sir Garnet. In your timeline it would probably make sense that Italy would be in the frontline to make the Suez ( maybe also the UK, since they surely have extensive interests in Asia , or the French, for the exact same reasons ) and, if you really realize your Egyptian ambitions, it would make no sense if someone else would do it...

To be honest your empire looks impressive enough, but it looks also extremely susceptible to situations where you are locally overrun, especially if you get in a situation where your colonial troops lose elements. You clearly need either Egypt in your empire or the Suez open to be able to use your army to the fullest and prevent that. The Qatari riff-raff with the UK also does not bode anything good ...

 

[loki100]

[Italian Accent] That Empire, she is a beauty. [/Italian Accent]

Oh one question, is there any way to check if there are any undiscovered resources in a region?

yes and no, this has been a source of debate on the AGEOD forum. You can build 'explorers' and then search for new resources in any region adjacent to the one they are deployed in. Its relatively expensive and a bit hit and miss. All that is fine, but some provinces are empty of resources (there is no way to tell this except by digging into the game files) so you can spend a lot of time/money searching in provinces where there is nothing to find. Some resources also reveal by event.

I assume there are ways to modify how hard you push on the British presence in Qatar? Or will you decide the rest of Abu Dhabi is sufficient and leave them be?

Well I am trying not to do anything in Qatar (except set up a trade post), (un)fortunately, as we'll see I get all 3 provinces when my colony is established - the good thing is this is 5 gem resources, so far the British haven't responded so I may have got away with it. I'll be happier when that area is legitimately in my SOI (probably about 1910 ... the strength of your claim does very slowly improve)

Good comprehensive update as always. Not sure why you would want to go to war in Ethiopia though? Looks like your average CP there is already at 27 within a year , year and a half you could acquire it peacefully through colonial actions (protectorate and colony) plus you would then gain that 1000 per stack for war with Egypt after a formal colony is declared.

The explorer thing seems odd I definitely have them to build in my game have you lost a few destroyed and possibly the pool is empty?

I can't raise CP in Ethiopian provinces over 35 but have spotted that I had low/nil CP in a number of the more isolated western most provinces, so am trying to rectify that. Gaining Ethiopia without a war and with all those nice colonial units is a very attractive prize.

Much, much potential - both for the good (exploiting resources and the locals!) and for the bad (upsetting the natives! Great power rivalries!).

It's interesting to see how well the game seems to model real-life colonial ventures: the lure of extra resources and prestige that turns into a sinkhole of your resources, the fact that you constantly have to push further to protect your gains as they finally become profitable... There's a compelling urge to expand just a little further, set up an extra buffer zone, see if you can seize that one more prize (see your comment about Kuwait).

You have a nice Empire on you there, mister, but - like your inherited colonial troops - it seems very brittle.

yes, once you have one bit, the 'logic' is to grab something else to defend it and so on - in the end, like the British in the nineteenth century you delude yourself into believing that Afghanistan is a crucial part of your Empire ....

Unexplored areas.

as above I'm having problems here as I don't have the explorer unit type. I think, as with Suez below, I need to do some modding to ensure that what makes sense in this game becomes feasible

I never checked since I only built it myself as France, but maybe the Suez Canal tech would allow you to build it. OR simply mod or add to the event to give Italy the opportunity. Historically Italy did not have these early and extensive Imperial ambitions, but it would be the natural interested party in these circumstances. The AI probably won't mind so long as it is open to them.

I think you are right, France has no particular reason so I'll see what I can script, creating a Med-Red Sea link makes a lot of sense to Italy in this game.

I agree with Sir Garnet. In your timeline it would probably make sense that Italy would be in the frontline to make the Suez ( maybe also the UK, since they surely have extensive interests in Asia , or the French, for the exact same reasons ) and, if you really realize your Egyptian ambitions, it would make no sense if someone else would do it...

To be honest your empire looks impressive enough, but it looks also extremely susceptible to situations where you are locally overrun, especially if you get in a situation where your colonial troops lose elements. You clearly need either Egypt in your empire or the Suez open to be able to use your army to the fullest and prevent that. The Qatari riff-raff with the UK also does not bode anything good ...

It is fragile. If I get into a global war with the UK then I can't really defend it. I am not going to build a large navy as my logic is my wars will be either with weak naval powers (Austria, Ottomans) or ones far too powerful for me to match (Britain, France). In the latter case I can't really move units by sea. If I had access, and rails, across Egypt at least I'd have some basis to combine my disparate military forces. As Stuyvesant noted, that is one problem with these Empires - the logic for expansion is rather compelling.

 

[loki100]

The Italian Army

This is the last of this sequence and I’ll go over the army at the end of the Ottoman war. There will be some discussion of mechanics but mostly just to set out, again, what challenges I face in recovering my losses.

If I you are interested in the underlying combat mechanics in AGEOD games, there are good discussions specific to WiA here and more generally over on the AGEOD forum, here. The latter in particular discusses how stacks make their target selection and provides an explanation for what happened at the decisive battle of Adrianople. The opening Ottoman assault saw all three of their armies select one of mine, that retired in disorder but the victory badly disordered the Ottomans, allowing my two (mostly) untouched armies to rally and turn the tables.

OOB​

I’ve already covered the deployment of the colonial units so this looks at the 4 armies currently in Italy. Three armies are going to be deployed on the Po and the final one, led by Garibaldi, is of course on its way to Libya.



Note that the red bar (underlying strength) is less than 100% for each formation. This reflects lost elements in the main corps in the battles around Istanbul. I can recover some of these very slowly, the formation needs to be in passive (green mode) and deployed on a depot.

So the 3 armies are:



One main issue is that in addition to the missing combat elements, I have lost a lot of valuable support units – balloons, signals units and hospital formations. But those three armies are just short of 250,000 men and 1,500 cannons, so quite a powerful force.

And Garibaldi waiting to return to war.

Unit Details​

Here are some of my key units in more detail. The key to reading this is that the attack/defence scores accessed on the left hand side (or by mousing over the element) are averages. Instead units really have differential combat values at different ranges. The little red figure shows the offensive fire value at 4 ranges, the blue one defensive fire at 3 ranges. Range 0, the bottom row, is for the assault phase – close combat.

If we go back to the Ottoman battles, remember I inflicted a lot of damage at range and one battle I lost was when the snow prevented effective ranged fire.

First unit is one of my Guards formation. Note they have a useful combat bonus as a result.



The next is line infantry



Note how much better the Guards formations are on almost every characteristic. Initiative is the exception, and this one determines which formation will fire first in any encounter. So a high value unit has the chance to inflict losses before the enemy (at that range) has the chance to return fire. Discipline is the likelihood a unit will actually engage in the assault phase.



A fairly typical cavalry formation, at this stage still just about useful on a European battlefield but pretty soon to be relegated to a secondary role.



Typical field artillery. Not yet the long range killer it will be soon (this is iron-bored) as most of its power is still line of sight and as part of direct combat. Still due to how frontage works, these are hugely important force multipliers. As in the Ottoman battles my more numerous (and better) artillery inflicted heavy ranged casualties on them.



Siege artillery, but pretty useful in the field. Their special traits are that they slow a column down but increase the chance of gaining a breach on a fortress. Main thing to note is the lower rate of fire but longer range. In an open battle, these will inflict losses before the enemy can respond. They are also about to be replaced by a newer, more effective model.



Last, and far from least, a colonial infantry regiment. Note they are less well trained (lower initiative and discipline) than line infantry, better on the attack and weaker on the defence.

These units mostly reflect the recent gains of iron-rifles and iron muzzle loaded artillery (the siege units are yet to upgrade), so I guess this is a pretty standard early 1870s army.

So with that we move into 1873 – irate Austrians, very irate Yemenis, Gari doing what he does best – its all to come. I also have a mound of Seville Oranges to make into marmalade and, as ever, that sort of cooking goes so well with having Pride of Nations running in the background (but don’t pour the marmalade onto your laptop).

 

[Sir Garnet]

It is fragile. If I get into a global war with the UK then I can't really defend it. I am not going to build a large navy as my logic is my wars will be either with weak naval powers (Austria, Ottomans) or ones far too powerful for me to match (Britain, France). In the latter case I can't really move units by sea. If I had access, and rails, across Egypt at least I'd have some basis to combine my disparate military forces. As Stuyvesant noted, that is one problem with these Empires - the logic for expansion is rather compelling.

That is logical. The inferior naval power may rely on keeping a strike force in being as a threat and reaiding forces for commerce raiding and fast, hazardous transits. Should check out torpedo boats when they come up.

Not having control of the seas also raises the question of where to put colonial forts, depots and military railways - run them inland, not on the coast except for important cities/ports? Definitely worth prior planning.

 

[Stuyvesant]

As a non-player there's not much meaningful I can say about this under-the-hood look, but I do have one question: why is Vittorio Emanuele's corps so paltry (136 power) compared to the other corps in that army? I mean, it looks like you have divisions in there that are more powerful - wouldn't it make sense to beef up VE's corps with some additional units?

 

[GulMacet]

As a non-player there's not much meaningful I can say about this under-the-hood look, but I do have one question: why is Vittorio Emanuele's corps so paltry (136 power) compared to the other corps in that army? I mean, it looks like you have divisions in there that are more powerful - wouldn't it make sense to beef up VE's corps with some additional units?

I think that's 1134 power, but the first digit is hidden rather effectively by his manly beard.

 

[Director]

One of the fascinating strategic puzzles is the balance of power between naval and land forces. France, Spain, Sweden and - to a lesser degree - Italy all came to grief on that rock. Germany was able to support both arms by dint of prodigious financial power but proved unable to use her naval strength in really effective ways. The old saying that, 'There is nothing more expensive than a second-best army,' applies also to navies, with the added point that it is generally faster to rebuild regiments than warships.

If Italy has a navy adequate to contain the Ottomans and Austrians, and has good relations with France (and hopefully Britain) then she may consider herself very well-served. It is not conceivable that she could build a navy capable of overthrowing that of France without stripping her land defenses (possibly not even if she did so). Far better to fortify a few points and depend on army corps to answer a potential invasion on Sicily or the 'boot'.

Moe than one country wound up with a 'vanity navy' that was expensive, poorly suited for the kind of warfare it needed to fight, and insufficient to counter a real challenge. I congratulate you on avoiding this strategic sinkhole, the more so since most European and South American statesmen of the era were unable to do so.

Of course you do have the advantage of not having to contend with public enthusiasms promoted by steel, armaments and shipbuilding interests.

 

[Powloon]

Wow Victor E sure does love his artillery. I notice del Rocca's 12th Brigata has what suspicously looks like a breech loading icon. Did you get this piece off the turks or are you currently in the process of upgrading your artillery?

I am fairly confident you would be able (if you want to) build a navy to compete with the other world powers. Bearing in mind that most of the ships of the worlds navies which are currently in service are soon to become obscelete and the fact that naval units do not seem particularly expensive when compared to income (in PON at least) you could easilly be on level terms with the other powers whilst still being able to compete on land. Could be wrong about ship costs though as I have yet to see how expensive the later ship models are.

Very intriguing titbits from the end of the post particularly regarding the Austrians!

 

[Stuyvesant]

I think that's 1134 power, but the first digit is hidden rather effectively by his manly beard.

I double-checked the number before I posted my original comment, but I still believe you are right. It certainly would make a lot more sense.

 

[loki100]

I double-checked the number before I posted my original comment, but I still believe you are right. It certainly would make a lot more sense.

I'll double check next time I have the game open. I know his corps took a real battering at the opening stage of the Adrianople battles and lost a lot of elements. it is confusing as the red bar in that detailed display just says that all elements present in the unit are at full strength, but the red bar on the on-map counter indicates that there are elements missing. So it is weakened, but as strong as it can be till the elements very slowly are regained - this is why, if you can, don't lose elements if you can avoid it.