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Last week I told you about the College of Cardinals and the new papal powers (though I believe I forgot to mention that the Pope can also grant you claims on counties and duchies!) Today I'll go through the rest of the new Christian mechanics in Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham, as well as the new Muslim stuff. Let's start with the Holy Orders!

CKII_SoA_DD_02_Dynastic_Grandmaster.jpg

We have given each non-heretic religion in the game at least one Holy Order. This includes the various pagan religions, though most of their Holy Orders are rather fanciful. The Catholics also get two more in addition to the old ones; the Knights of Calatrava and the Knights of Santiago, both of which are mostly active in Hispania. Holy Orders are no longer activated at a certain date, many will start showing up once the Crusades/Jihads kick off (which is also more dynamic now), or when certain conditions are met. For example, the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre (an Orthodox Holy Order) becomes active if Antioch and Jerusalem are Orthodox and held by Orthodox rulers. Holy Orders are now much more active in world politics, and both their internal and external mechanics have been altered. You can now borrow money from certain Holy Orders (like the Knights Templar), or donate money for Piety. They, in turn, will make various requests (and if you owe them money, it is hard to refuse.) For example, they can ask that one of your sons join them, or that you give them the right to build a castle in an empty holding slot in one of your counties. Internally, Grandmasters are no longer randomly generated characters, but chosen from among vassals and courtiers, many of which will now be important members of European nobility. Having a Grandmaster of your dynasty will give you a monthly amount of prestige. Castle holdings under the Grandmaster are no longer hereditary, but appointed to a "Commander" for life. We have also added some minor rules and decisions, like if you happen to be the king of Jerusalem, you now have the option to vassalize the Templars and the Knights of St John. Lastly, if you think that an Order has grown too powerful in your realm, you can expel it forever, seizing its castles (a very impious act.)

CKII_SoA_DD_02_Holy_Order_Decisions.jpg

Somewhat related to the Holy Orders, you now have the ability to order any courtier to take the vows and become a monk or nun. The character will then either become a regular monk or nun (traits), or go off to join one of the martial orders. Either way, he or she will be disinherited. Unfortunately, you are not allowed to do this against characters who stand to inherit titles (like younger sons under Gavelkind); unless you imprison them first!

CKII_SoA_DD_02_Take_the_Vows.jpg

As I mentioned earlier, the Crusades will no longer necessarily kick off after a certain year; it now depends on the actual situation in Europe. For example, if Constantinople or Rome have fallen or the Moors are pushing into France. Similar conditions now apply for the Muslims. The Pagans - if they can have Great Holy Wars - will get them after the Crusades and Jihads are both active.

We have also improved on the heresies; most of them are now more distinctive and some of them even have their own heads of religion. For example, the Cathars can appoint female bishops and the Ibadi can now have their own Caliph, etc. The events that control the spread of heresies are different if you have Sons of Abraham; heresies tend to be more localized and it is also possible for minority view non-heretics among your courtiers to spread their faith (i.e. an Orthodox courtier among Catholics, etc.) Perhaps the most drastic change to heresies though, is that they can now take over as the new orthodoxy if they hold more provinces than the current mainstream form of the religion. If, say, more counties are Waldensian than Catholic, Catholicism will become the heresy and its Holy Orders will join the Waldensians. Oh, and we also decided to add "regular" religious rebels who are not trying to spread a heresy, just to gain freedom from the religious oppression of their overlords (e.g. Sunni rebels in a Catholic realm.)

Catholicism may have received the most attention in Sons of Abraham, but we have not forgotten the Muslims. They get a choice between two rival schools of theology and the conflicts that arise out of taking a stance. On one side, you have the Mu'tazili school, which espouses reason and rational thought inspired by the ancient Greek philosophers. Opposing them are the Ash'ari, who belive in the eternal, uncreated word of Allah. Historically, the Mutazilites lost out after some fairly brutal conflicts and draconian measures like the Mihna , arguably bringing to an end the Islamic Golden Age. In game terms, Mutazilites get a Learning bonus for research, whereas the Ash'ari gain Piety, and members of opposing schools tend to loathe each other.

I think that will do for now. Next week, I'll speak of pilgrimages, religious events and Judaism!
 
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The Orthodox don't call it the Holy Sepulchre; they call it the Church of the Resurrection (Anastasis, in Greek). 'Holy Sepulchre' is the term used by Latin Christians, i.e. Catholics (and later Protestant). So the Orthodox would call it the 'Brotherhood of the Resurrection'.

Mind you, the Orthodox Church consistently and repeatedly condemned the idea of holy war, even when Nikephoros II Phokas tried to encourage it, so they really shouldn't have a Holy Order at all. You'd be better to focus on other areas of the Orthodox Church.
Well, the Byzantine Empire wasn't called that way by it's inhabitants and rulers, and here we are......
 
The Orthodox don't call it the Holy Sepulchre; they call it the Church of the Resurrection (Anastasis, in Greek). 'Holy Sepulchre' is the term used by Latin Christians, i.e. Catholics (and later Protestant). So the Orthodox would call it the 'Brotherhood of the Resurrection'.
.

Brotherhood of the Resurrection is an awesome name.
 
With some modding, I imagine so. There's a new succession law called Appointment.
Great!
When talking about succession laws and religious flavour added to Christians - is there any chance of introducing nubian style agnatic-cognatic succession?
In medieval Nubia (kingdom of Makuria) the oldest son of the oldest ruler's sister was the first in line to inherit. The next in line were her younger sons and then sons of other ruler's sisters.
 
I wonder if they'll be anymore Holy Orders for the Catholics or unique places like the Latin Empire to create their own Holy Orders.
 
If the "allow female priests" heresy becomes catholic mainstream, would a female pope be called "mama"?
"Mamacy"?
"Mamal states"?

There was a female pope but they had thought that she was a man. For the sake of discussion I woud use ''Pope" or the greek word for mother
 
ARAB AND CELTIC PAGANISM!!!! ARAB AND CELTIC PAGANISM!!!! ARAB AND CELTIC PAGANISM!!!! ARAB AND CELTIC PAGANISM!!!!

What celtic paganism are you refering to? I am a celtic polytheist in real life, an Irish reconstructionist one that is, but there never was a celtic paganism in the same sense that there was a roman one. Celtic paganism, includes gaelic, gallic(guals) and byrthonic as its main branches. Then you have the fact that both gallic and byrthonic were merged with the roman religion when the romans came into the region.

But I would love to see any of the branches IG without modding it in :)
 
What celtic paganism are you refering to? I am a celtic polytheist in real life, an Irish reconstructionist one that is, but there never was a celtic paganism in the same sense that there was a roman one. Celtic paganism, includes gaelic, gallic(guals) and byrthonic as its main branches. Then you have the fact that both gallic and byrthonic were merged with the roman religion when the romans came into the region.

But I would love to see any of the branches IG without modding it in :)

I would hope to see Brythonic and Gaelic paganism. Gallic paganism would require a significant stretch back into the past.
 
There was a female pope but they had thought that she was a man. For the sake of discussion I woud use ''Pope" or the greek word for mother

This is a legend.
 
I would hope to see Brythonic and Gaelic paganism. Gallic paganism would require a significant stretch back into the past.

If they made another crazy DLC where Albert Magnus or some other famous CK2 era scientist [ probably a fictional scientist would make more sense but these things usually grab famous people ] went mad and built a machine to try and undo a failed crusade or break open the universe to go talk to god or something and creates a time vortex in the middle of europe, sending random invasions of the past and future.
Then thatd be an excuse to have an ancient religions DLC with special features for the ancient greeks and flavour events for sacrificing to first born to Ba'al for the Carthaginian Invaders and massive battle modifier traits to represent machine guns for the time travelling nazis too.

People keep saying SoA is comparable to LoR and another will come soon which is comparable to TOG so presumably this round ought to have an SI too, and why not time travelling Celtic hordes?
If they can invade anatolia they can invade time

Even the Ancient Religions mod has to go about reviving byrthonic paganism in a forced way, so theres no way an official release could justify including celtic barbarism * unless they pushed the time frame back before the Rubicon which aint happening.

So really the only way to get paradox mechanics for things long dead or irrelevant by CK2s time would be an SI style minor DLC which then probably wouldnt get mechanics just flavour events and graphics.

*[as if you went back that far youd have to re-jig the religion mechanic to be Roman Culture/Civilisation v various barbarism as religion wasnt a defining point of identity when Celtic paganism was controlling swaths of the map]

Great!
When talking about succession laws and religious flavour added to Christians - is there any chance of introducing nubian style agnatic-cognatic succession?
In medieval Nubia (kingdom of Makuria) the oldest son of the oldest ruler's sister was the first in line to inherit. The next in line were her younger sons and then sons of other ruler's sisters.

There was talk of that for the saxons a while back, and from what I remember there were very good reasons as to why the game wouldnt be able to calculate it properly, but I cant remember what they were.

This is a legend.

CK2 has alot of legends in it.
It also has this happen quite alot, or atleast it used to, when pope's bastards got claims. And presumably, the new election mechanic could well bring that back as active characters from your dynasty with pre-clerical lives will be becoming popes and could well have legitimate daughters before entering the priesthood so who knows what madness will follow.
 
What celtic paganism are you refering to? I am a celtic polytheist in real life, an Irish reconstructionist one that is, but there never was a celtic paganism in the same sense that there was a roman one. Celtic paganism, includes gaelic, gallic(guals) and byrthonic as its main branches. Then you have the fact that both gallic and byrthonic were merged with the roman religion when the romans came into the region.

But I would love to see any of the branches IG without modding it in :)

Granted, the Hellenic paganism in-game is basically a mishmash of Greek and Roman polytheism, while Finnish paganism accounts for the traditional paganism of the Finns, Estonians, Siberian peoples, and others, and so on, so I guess it wouldn't be too implausible to see the devs have a broad Celtic Paganism if they ever added it in (which I think is unlikely, but hey).
 
Granted, the Hellenic paganism in-game is basically a mishmash of Greek and Roman polytheism, while Finnish paganism accounts for the traditional paganism of the Finns, Estonians, Siberian peoples, and others, and so on, so I guess it wouldn't be too implausible to see the devs have a broad Celtic Paganism if they ever added it in (which I think is unlikely, but hey).

True, there are similarities after all. A good example is comparing the god Lugh(Irish/gaelic) with Lleu(welsh/byrthonic) so I wouldn't mind. I just like to point out to others that it is sort of a misnomer that there is a celtic pantheon and religion. While there are similarities between the various branches, they are still different.

Of course, I personally find how paradox has set up polytheism in ck2 to be weird, as there are a number of things that just make me go huh. but that might be better for another thread.
 
There was a female pope but they had thought that she was a man. For the sake of discussion I woud use ''Pope" or the greek word for mother

The Popess was a myth.
 
CK2 has alot of legends in it.

There's legends in the "we've got little else to go on, so lets just use the legends" parts of the game. And then there's Pope Joan, who's very existence contradicts a variety of sources.
 
Seems like that this Brotherhood of the Holy Seplechur is more of a Guardian type of organization rather than a Crusading one, I wonder if Paradox could model them in a defensive fashion where they function optimaly during defensive Holy Wars and GHWs/Jihads targeting Orthodox nations.
 
Seems like that this Brotherhood of the Holy Seplechur is more of a Guardian type of organization rather than a Crusading one, I wonder if Paradox could model them in a defensive fashion where they function optimaly during defensive Holy Wars and GHWs/Jihads targeting Orthodox nations.

Well, all the holy orders were to start with. If the DLC supposes that the orthodox order was applied the same conditions that drove the catholic orders to switch from protecting travellers to storming the castles of the heathens then its a reasonable, if only logically not realistic, to assume that they'd go the same way.

Anyway, there are also going to orders for the entirely fictional reformed pagans no?
So it could always be the presence of the reformed pagan orders that necessitate the militarisation of an orthodox order to defend against them.
 
What is a really good choice for a Othodox Holy Order :)
- you wanted to say Byzantine Holy Order... Because considering that Ortodoxy does not have crusades, the only orthodox nation that can establish and use this order are - Byzantium. And i dont think that ERE which can conquer and hold Antiochy and Jerusalem are in dire need of Holy Order... So for me personally this Holy Order choice is pretty disappointing.
 
- you wanted to say Byzantine Holy Order... Because considering that Ortodoxy does not have crusades, the only orthodox nation that can establish and use this order are - Byzantium. And i dont think that ERE which can conquer and hold Antiochy and Jerusalem are in dire need of Holy Order... So for me personally this Holy Order choice is pretty disappointing.

And which one would better? The problem is there aren't many Orthodox Holy Orders. More like as good as nothing. It's nice enough the found a historical Order for the Orthodox characters. And I'm prefer historical orders and made up holy orders.
 
Hm. I would rather the Orthodoxy not have Holy Orders, because it makes them more like the Catholics, and symmetry between religions is to be avoided wherever possible.

It's like Orthodoxy not getting Crusades; that's their payback for not having to deal with a recalcitrant and powerful Catholic Church. Orthodox religion is generally less political (though obviously not entirely apolitical) and isn't as useful for justifying Holy War; on the other hand, Orthodox monarchs also have close-to-full control over their own clergy, can be assured of receiving the profits from their temple holdings, and aren't threatened with excommunication. "Everyone gets a holy order" makes Catholicism and Orthodoxy more homogenous in a way that doesn't add much to the game.