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It's Tuesday and time for another dev diary on the latest expansion for Crusader Kings II; Sons of Abraham. The topics of the day are pilgrimages, Judaism and religious events. First off though, for those who read last week's diary, we've changed how the Ash'ari and Mu'tazilite traits are handled a bit. They are now much more significant, because an Ash'ari no longer gives decadence to his dynasty, and the Learning bonus for Mutazilites is correspondingly higher (currently +5).

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Start_of_Pilgrimage.jpg

Right, so, on the subject of Islam, one thing we were quite happy with in Sword of Islam was the addition of the decision to go on the Hajj, with the little adventure and the special trait you got at the end. Naturally, a lot of people thought we should add a similar thing for Christians, so that is exactly what we have done in Sons of Abraham. Christians get to choose between several different holy places. For example, Catholics can go to Canterbury, Santiago, Cologne, Rome or Jerusalem. During the journey, a regent will be appointed for pilgrim rulers and various adventures will unfold. Going on a pilgrimage costs a bit of money, and there are of course risks, but successful pilgrims will enjoy monthly piety and respect from their brothers and sisters of the faith for the rest of their lives. There could also be some unexpected benefits...

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Pilgrim_Adventure.jpg

In the same vein, we have added tons of events dealing with religious life, for Christians especially. Some are complex event chains (for example, there is one inspired by Joan of Arc) and others are simple (e.g. monks cure your illness.) There are events about relics, immoral priests (of most religions), the crusades, etc.

However, the feature in Sons of Abraham that appears to have garnered the most attention is probably the addition of the Jewish religion. Prior to the addition of the 867 start date in The Old Gods, adding Judaism to the game seemed relatively pointless due to the lack of significant Jewish rulers. In 867 though, there is indeed a powerful Jewish state; the Turkic Khazar Khaganate, which we previously represented as being of the Tengri faith, but which was historically well into the process of converting to Judaism at the time. (I think it is plausible enough that they did this in order to counteract foreign interference justified by Muslim and Christian proselytizing. Furthermore, it can be very beneficial for an empire to have a religion of its own as a vehicle for cultural cohesion and dominance.) Now, playing as the Khazars is not easy even in 867, due mostly to their powerful and aggressive neighbors, like the Pechenegs and the Cumans, but there is also a real risk of religious internal strife. In other words, it's a worthy challenge, like playing as the Zoroastrian House of Karen.

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Rabbi_at_Work.jpg

Of course, there is an even tougher challenge available, even for those who do not have The Old Gods; one last Jewish Khazar duke is still clinging on in the Saray region in 1066, vassal to the Cumans. Now, Jewish players have similar goals to strive for as the Zoroastrians; you can try to restore the ancient united kingdom of Israel and Judah, restore the High Priesthood under the Kohen Gadol, and even rebuild the Temple.

CKII_SoA_DD_03_The_Last_Khazars.jpg

Apart from the Khazar Jews, there are also the Ashkenazim and Sephardim, in the form of learned men and courtiers who can show up in your court. If you run out of money as a non-Jewish ruler, you can also choose to borrow money from Jewish merchants. If you do not want to pay them back, you can actually expel the Jews from the realm (similar to what you can do with the Holy Orders.) You will, however, stop getting the benefits of having remarkably skilled Jewish courtiers to serve in your council, and you and your descendants cannot borrow any more money from their community. Obviously, this is a pretty terrible thing to do, but it does, unfortunately, have several historical precedents.

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Jewish_Decisions.jpg

I believe that about sums up the features of this little expansion. Next week I'll go through all the stuff we're giving you for free!
 
Because orthodox jews trace their ancestry maternally. Thus, according to them, you cannot become a jew, ie. convert, you have to be born as one. For them only jews that are descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel and Judah are considered "truly" judaic.

Untrue (except for possibly the ultra-orthodox). Judaism does recognize converts, and once the conversion process is complete, converts are required to be treated the same as those born Jewish. Most of the modern controversy comes from Orthodox Jews not accepting the authority of non-Orthodox Rabbis to perform conversions, so they do not accept those conversions as valid. As these divisions came well after the CK2 timeframe, this is not an issue for the game.
 
Btw, is the dropdown alarm symbol (three people) on the very right in picture 2 new or have i forgot about it ?

It seems that you never got any faction trouble ;) It's a notification for dangerous faction action. Over 30% of manpower in independence faction and/or over 60% in claimant factions. My numbers are probably off, but you will get the picture.

Untrue (except for possibly the ultra-orthodox). Judaism does recognize converts, and once the conversion process is complete, converts are required to be treated the same as those born Jewish. Most of the modern controversy comes from Orthodox Jews not accepting the authority of non-Orthodox Rabbis to perform conversions, so they do not accept those conversions as valid. As these divisions came well after the CK2 timeframe, this is not an issue for the game.

Exactly. My assumption has always been that after conversion, a person IS considered wholly Jewish and descended from the 12 tribes. It is something like believing that the sacramental bread and wine ARE really the Christ's body and blood, not just representing them symbolically.
 
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It seems that you never got any faction trouble ;) It's a notification for dangerous faction action. Over 30% of manpower in independence faction and/or over 60% in claimant factions. My numbers are probably off, but you will get the picture.

Oh :eek:

Not recently, no. After i learned how to deal with 'em i hardly recognise any of them. Never happens to me anymore. :D

edit: I'm very into micromanaging this game. Giving different cultured heirs proper cultured wards, plotting to murder, money bribes, excommunication, clean borders or letting my vassals fight among themselves etc. etc.. :happy:
 
I got one, or perhaps two! what about descanted to king David's linage? perhaps it should be only accessible to non-Khazar Jews. However, one way or another, it ccan add to the prestige of a character.

And perhaps this characters can claim to be the Messiah. It could work out in several ways, such as a lunatic character claims to be the Messiah (Jerusalem syndrom anyone?). Or someone, who will actually be or considered to be a true Messiah and will be followed by the people.


Just brainstormin'


Another thing, I am familiar with the historical Ash'ari and Muatizile movement, but can someone explain shortly what will be their role in the game?

Since this hasn't been responded to (that I can see). King David was of the Tribe of Judah. However, after the Babylonian Exile (around 600-500BC), the tribal affiliations were abandoned, with the exception of Levites and Cohens (Everyone else just became Israelite).
 
Exactly. My assumption has always been that after conversion, a person IS considered wholly Jewish and descended from the 12 tribes. It is something like believing that the sacramental bread and wine ARE really the Christ's body and blood, not just representing them symbolically.

And you are correct. Conversion has a biblical base and goes back to Ruth, who was the first convert. So there is plenty of basis for it.
 
With the difference that the most pogroms are from the lower nobility and peasants.
- so basically same people who go on crusade?:rolleyes:
 
I'd say the best reason for me to include Jewish lineage is that it's the only major requirement missing for the Jewish messiah. You can already reform the Kingdom of Israel, and rebuild the Temple. If the player also was a descendant of David, nobody would doubt that it would be the messiah.
 
Question about the united Jewish kingdom: will we have a chance to reform either( or both) the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and the Kingdom of Judah, or is it only Israel? Will de jure Israel (if one kingdom) be the size of the kingdom under David and Solomon, or will it be just Kingdom of Jerusalem with a new name?(which is more than likely, but being able to rule David's kingdom would be cool). If Israel is taken in a crusade, would it change to Kingdom of Jerusalem(like Byzantium becomes the Latin Empire). Since all religions are getting some form of holy order now, what will Judaism's be? If there is only one Jewish Kingdom, would there be a Duchy of Judah and Duchy of Israel(or Samaria)?

As far as relics (for Christians in particular) are concerned, I'm assuming that the Holy Grail, Holy Lance and the True Cross are among those that you can find, but I'm wondering if we'll be able to go full Indiana Jones and find the Arc of the Covenant?

This expansion looks fantastic, cannot wait!

I think the idea of relics would be really cool, sort of like in civilization and having great works or something like that. I know that's probably not going to happen (and no one has talked about it, really), but some cool events would be awesome.

I can't remember whether or not pilgrimages are going to be included in 2.0, or only for those who purchase.
 
Since this hasn't been responded to (that I can see). King David was of the Tribe of Judah. However, after the Babylonian Exile (around 600-500BC), the tribal affiliations were abandoned, with the exception of Levites and Cohens (Everyone else just became Israelite).

With all this talk about rebuilding the second temple, and claiming to be the messiah, does this mean we will get a Christian apocalypse dlc? just kidding.
 
How come the symbol being used for Judaism is the Menorah instead of the Star of David?


Edit: Found out probably why.

The hexagram has been in use as a symbol of Judaism since the 17th century, with precedents in the 14th to 16th centuries in Central Europe, where the Shield of David was partly used in conjunction with the Seal of Solomon (the hexagram) on Jewish flags.
 
I think the idea of relics would be really cool, sort of like in civilization and having great works or something like that. I know that's probably not going to happen (and no one has talked about it, really), but some cool events would be awesome.

Err..

There are events about relics, immoral priests (of most religions), the crusades, etc.

Or did i misunderstand your post ?

I can't remember whether or not pilgrimages are going to be included in 2.0, or only for those who purchase.

I'd be puzzled and disappointed if not in the patch, but we will only know by the next devdiary.
 
Aye, but I think in that time people usually charged interest anyway when giving loans, or at least the Italian bankers did. Not sure how they justified it being Catholic.

Iirc, that was a later thing- I forget exactly how they justified it, but I remember it was based on very fine technicalities.

I don't think it happened before the 1300s at least, but I may be wrong. Before then, Jews were the go-to moneylenders.
 
How common will the Ash'ari and Mu'tazilite traits be? Can we expect all Sunnis to have them or will they be limited in some say, such as requiring clerical education? What happens if a heresy takes over, will they now apply to the dominant faith? Will the traits persist throughout the game or will there be an event that marks the triumph of one sect, eliminating the need for one or maybe even both traits?
 
Iirc, that was a later thing- I forget exactly how they justified it, but I remember it was based on very fine technicalities.

I don't think it happened before the 1300s at least, but I may be wrong. Before then, Jews were the go-to moneylenders.

The common one was to contract to borrow in one currency, and pay it back in another at an exchange rate that was favorable to the lender. The other was to borrow from the office in one city/town and pay a service charge for 'transport' from head office (the difference being justified as the benefit of the service.). The method used in Islamic banking nowdays (which I can't remember offhand) also works.