EU4: El Dorado - Development Diary 1: Nahuatl, Exploration & Treaty of Tordesillas | Page 6

elmarcel · Jan 22, 2015

Really curious about doom. Wondering if this makes it easier or harder to do Sunset invasion, and whether the ai can manage it. Especially the increase due to number of provinces makes it scary. But constant war == fun! I'm going to sing the doom song now.

loup99 · Jan 22, 2015

The new exploration is great, but it could perhaps be tuned a bit more, something that I will either mod, or let a modder do it! Good that it is a bit slower too.

Everybody complaining about the treaty are people who go protestant ASAP. What you people complaining need to remember is that this was a treaty between two catholic countries and their religious head, which for protestant is irrelevant as you plunder with pirates and ignore catholics anyway. I think that it is good, but the catholic player should get a bigger malus when ignoring it/ a free CB against them.

Doc Fontaine · Jan 22, 2015

Freudia said:
The Treaty, though, likely will have zero impact on how people play the game unless they're playing a nation that already stays Catholic (ie Castile). Most nations people colonize with are likely to switch out of being Catholic as soon as possible, so it sounds sort of silly. -50 relations with the Treaty nations and the Pope is laughable though. 100% ignorable. -10 growth isn't ignorable, but also doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Why does violating the treaty make your colony grow slower?

Pretty sure it gives CB to the claim holder too, like the Inter Caetera idea does for Castile/Spain at the moment - Inter Caetera was the Papal bull that divided the New World between Castile and Portugal, and the Treaty of Tordesillas ratified it between the two crowns.
As for the reduced colony growth, the way I interpret it is that basically less people would be willing to settle the colony if they know they're defying the Pope/God, which in turn is why it's only for Catholics. Obviously Protestants and Reformists aren't going to give a shit if they're encroaching on Spain's precious Pope-granted lands.

ChildeR · Jan 22, 2015

Doc Fontaine said:
Pretty sure it gives CB to the claim holder too, like the Inter Caetera idea does for Castile/Spain at the moment - Inter Caetera was the Papal bull that divided the New World between Castile and Portugal, and the Treaty of Tordesillas ratified it between the two crowns.

We'll have to see about the CB, but Spain's ideas could use a rethink if that's the case. Or either way, I guess.

GunthiHrod · Jan 22, 2015

And before Treaty of Tordesillas there was the Treaty of Alcáçovas (also known as Treaty or Peace of Alcáçovas-Toledo) was signed on 4 September 1479

VolitionNewlove · Jan 22, 2015

GunthiHrod said:
And before Treaty of Tordesillas there was the Treaty of Alcáçovas (also known as Treaty or Peace of Alcáçovas-Toledo) was signed on 4 September 1479

It didn't taste as good, though.

Falc · Jan 22, 2015

Hmmm... The whole Doom bit sounded really interesting, but then a comment on the previous page made me re-read one part in more detail.

Wiz said:
If you wish to get out of this cycle of war and sacrifice, you will need to reform your religion. [...] Nahuatl states have five reforms they can pass, [...]. Enacting a reform requires having at least 5 vassal states, [...]. When enacted, Doom will increases by 25 and all subject states will declare independence, forcing you to go to war to bring them back into the fold.

That sounds veeery repetitive... Grab 5 vassals, reform, see them break free, and all this times 5? Is there really no better way to do this?

Ralepozozaxe · Jan 22, 2015

elmarcel said:
Really curious about doom. Wondering if this makes it easier or harder to do Sunset invasion, and whether the ai can manage it. Especially the increase due to number of provinces makes it scary. But constant war == fun! I'm going to sing the doom song now.

I doubt the AI will be able to get five vassals and then win wars to keep them in the fold five times, along side the other doom mechanics.

FLESH HUNTER · Jan 22, 2015

The doom mechanic seems a bit bad...And why would anyone want a colonist? I saw from one of the images that for every province you own the faster the DOOM increases

JPGM22 · Jan 22, 2015

Tordesillas has made a division of whole world. Why this only works in America?? If it to work for entire world, I can prevent someone to colonize sub-saharian africa and ensure that the route to india is mine. -> The real historic mean of tordesillas treaty

In new world it can work with Colonial regions
In old world it can work with company regions.

Kraxis · Jan 22, 2015

5 vassals... does this mean the Nahuatl states need to over over their Dip Rel limit? Unless they pick Diplo, Expansion or Influence as soon as possible? Or are they free from that in regards to vassals as long as they aren't reformed?

Overall the Doom mechanic appear interesting, but wholly too hard. We will never see any AI nation with more than 1 reform (they will lose the vassal war, and likely get knocked down with a 100 Doom afterwards).

VolitionNewlove · Jan 22, 2015

Falc said:
That sounds veeery repetitive... Grab 5 vassals, reform, see them break free, and all this times 5? Is there really no better way to do this?

As I understand it, it will just be an independance war. Still might feel a little convoluted in terms of cause-and-effect, though.

FLESH HUNTER said:
The doom mechanic seems a bit bad...And why would anyone want a colonist? I saw from one of the images that for every province you own the faster the DOOM increases

Doom can get removed permanently, though, in a method similar to Westernisation (after passing all reforms.) Colonising can allow easier Westernisation, although it's not really that helpful for a Mesoamerican nation.

In any case, I'd presume that vassal provinces don't count toward it, so feeding would be an option.

Ralepozozaxe · Jan 22, 2015

Pte Baldrick said:
As I understand it, it will just be an independance war. Still might feel a little convoluted in terms of cause-and-effect, though.

Doom can get removed permanently, though, in a method similar to Westernisation (after passing all reforms.) Colonising can allow easier Westernisation, although it's not really that helpful for a Mesoamerican nation.

In any case, I'd presume that vassal provinces don't count toward it, so feeding would be an option.

But then you would have stronger vassals that you eventually have to fight.

Also like you said, the colonist will be useful for after you've passed all your reforms to make your way to the closest European to westernize.

TheMeInTeam · Jan 22, 2015

TheChrisD said:
That Doom mechanic is... shockingly bad. It was hard enough controlling all of Mesoamerica before the Euros came as it was. All that hassle with vassals breaking off, just to get the same free tech boost like the Native Councils get? Totally not worth it. Glad I started my Sunset run before this...

Also, since you're looking at slowing down naval exploration; can you do something about colonial range? Like make it so that distant overseas provinces don't count towards it.

Despite that I'm a cynic, for this one I'll say don't be so quick to judge. While getting to 100 doom is an utter screw-job on the order of being worse than bankrupting, it shouldn't be too hard to put together 5 OPM vassals and bash on them repeatedly for reforms, lowering doom by occupying them and sacrificing their dudes and taking missions that taper well with doing that.

The baseline bonuses Johan says of 10% morale and -2 unrest are decent (the latter opens up some opportunity to lower autonomy manually similar to what we have with animist right now with its +1 TTF, -1 unrest, and -1 decision). I do worry about conversion strength since it's generally untenable for 1.9 pagans, but with the re-work we'll see.

To me, the most odd thing is the cross-purpose balancing. You want more land so you can bash vassals on reform, but more land gives more doom. You can get a colonist, but that also gives more doom (though depending on how much more, potentially worth it). You want to get that western border so you can reform, which means ADM 4 for exploration...but that's inefficient compared to using the 80% catch-up bonus from the religious reform. What does Aztec see at the start...same as before or more? That could be a hidden factor with real impact on how your choices play out.

Based on what Wiz wrote, the initial impression is for that this religion you just want to go full aggro to pick up small vassals and work down doom constantly, passing reforms to get into more wars and keep lowering doom, probably annexing your vassals after the final reform

.

It is true that the AI will be completely useless with doom mechanic, though the AI is completely useless right now in the new world too.

Osman Pasha · Jan 22, 2015

Zaelot said:
Sad to see how paradox work in things like "doom" instead of improving Political, diplomatic and economical aspects of the game (basically more things to do in peace times).

I really didnt see anithing in this first DD that exited me.

Indeed, they should completely overhaul the current military and administrative system. Warscore/AE/sieges/battles/oe/ae all need to change.

josh127 · Jan 22, 2015

Freudia said:
I didn't find it fun, but I did like the control I had over it. I could also press my limits and if I got greedy I could attempt to discover that one last square before turning home. Now it's always a "go out and find this exact square, then come home" kind of deal, and I'm not sure if I like it.

From what I'm reading I think we still have the option to explore the old fashioned way, it just requires 3 ships to do it. On the other hand the auto-explore will go out to a specific area and will uncover everything along the way, so, in theory it can be more valuable since you're guaranteed to uncover everything.

I could be misinterpreting it, but I'm pretty sure it's another option for exploring, not a replacement.

it shouldn't be too hard to put together 5 OPM vassals and bash on them repeatedly for reforms,

That's not what the Dev Diary says. It says you can sacrifice your vassals leaders and declare flower wars on other countries. Sacrificing their leaders is a limited commodity, and when you do, do they get 0/0/0 leaders too? So basically, after sacrificing one you're done? War with the other nations means you need to not only keep them alive, but keep them large enough to keep producing units. Meanwhile, while you're being told to keep everyone alive, every other nation in the game is encouraged to go out and conquer.

What does Aztec see at the start...same as before or more? That could be a hidden factor with real impact on how your choices play out.

The doom screenshot shows you that it's the same. Doom is just another "reform or die" except, in this case there's really nothing fun about the way you're going to die.

VolitionNewlove · Jan 22, 2015

Ralepozozaxe said:
But then you would have stronger vassals that you eventually have to fight.

Also like you said, the colonist will be useful for after you've passed all your reforms to make your way to the closest European to westernize.

Obviously you'd need to keep the bulk of them (or at least the better ones) for yourself. If you can beat the first round of reforms, it's safe to say that you'll be able to beat them the other four times (assuming Spain and Portugal haven't arrived yet.)

Wizzington · Jan 22, 2015

FLESH HUNTER said:
The doom mechanic seems a bit bad...And why would anyone want a colonist? I saw from one of the images that for every province you own the faster the DOOM increases

You get to keep the reforms after you reform your religion.

net.split · Jan 22, 2015

Interesting implementation of the Treaty. The first thing that comes to mind is what this could do to the frequent Tri-Alliance of Doom (France, Spain, and Portugal). How likely is the AI to pay attention to the treaty? Maybe they'll go along at first when there's other good colonization options, but at some point they're going to step on each other's toes and collapse alliances. I hope.

BFTeixeira · Jan 22, 2015

Given that you need to create a CN to trigger the Treaty of Tordesillas, is it now possible to form CN's in sub-saharan Africa? Portugal signed the treaty with the intention of protecting their route to India and their possessions and trade posts along the African coast (some say that they also signed it to guarantee a little bit of the new world by pushing the meridian far enough from Cape Verde so that Brazil would stay within the portuguese sphere), so it makes sense that you can trigger the ToT in the African region.

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