[Mod] Tides of Warcraft (Formerly: Azerothian Kings) - Looking for assistance!

[blckdrgn]

Well, yes. Taking a version of the Vanilla WoW map and adapting it to CK2 needs makes the most sense of course. I just posted the maps to put some perspective to the claim that Alterac had the second-greatest navy and any other future claims that may come up and are confusing given more current maps. As I said, the only thing really useful to the game is seeing the various major islands that Blizzard never got around to introducing to WoW (Kul'Tiras apparently drifted out into the sea or something during Cataclysm).

I totally 100% agree. Hence why I choose to throw Kul Tiras back in there. A few of the other islands are super important and if we opt to continue down the road with this, we'll definitely look into placing the more obscure islands such as Tel'abim and so on.

 

[Rafinius]

Tel'abim

Huh. I thought that at least for now you were making only the Eastern Kingdoms playable. But I guess expanding to other continents after release makes sense.

I have a different question by the way. What made you decide to include so many separate counties per region? Not only do you seem to have one for each village, some of them I can't even imagine what to call them, let alone choose rulers. And it also means that you won't be able to name almost any sub-baronies with anything canon.
To give an example I can think of maybe 5 distinct parts of Loch Modan. You have 7. Naming its baronies may go as far as naming it after specific town buildings.
I know that the world of Azeroth is much much larger than it is depicted in WoW but are you sure it is that much larger? And if you're doing it mostly for gameplay reasons then I must point out that you are transforming many of the 'large' kingdoms into veritable empires.

 

[ngppgn]

Huh. I thought that at least for now you were making only the Eastern Kingdoms playable. But I guess expanding to other continents after release makes sense.

I have a different question by the way. What made you decide to include so many separate counties per region? Not only do you seem to have one for each village, some of them I can't even imagine what to call them, let alone choose rulers. And it also means that you won't be able to name almost any sub-baronies with anything canon.
To give an example I can think of maybe 5 distinct parts of Loch Modan. You have 7. Naming its baronies may go as far as naming it after specific town buildings.
I know that the world of Azeroth is much much larger than it is depicted in WoW but are you sure it is that much larger? And if you're doing it mostly for gameplay reasons then I must point out that you are transforming many of the 'large' kingdoms into veritable empires.

It's not that large though. I mean, right now there is not even 400 land provinces. Vanilla has like 3x that. I would asume that including all the world would put the mod count on par with vanilla. It's also better, within a reasonable limit to have more counties with less baronies each than have less counties with more baronies each, due to barons being actually not able to properly interact with other characters, marriage-wise, and in other respects.

 

[Rafinius]

But a basic 2-3 baronies per county should be included though, no?

 

[ngppgn]

I guess so.

 

[blckdrgn]

But a basic 2-3 baronies per county should be included though, no?

No, actually. There's quite a few places that might have only one or two baronies tops, many of the "places between" are wild and untamed. Keep in mind that the proof of concept de jure map is really only about de jure and not about land value. For example, even though something might be de jure Stormwind/Azeroth, it might not actually be under k_stormwind's control at a given start date, nor will it be a fully upgraded 4 castle holding province. That said though many civilizations in WoW could be considered empires and more than a couple were. Arathor and Amani come to mind, the former breaking apart because it simply was too large to manage. Lordaeon's vastness started to gain ground on the size of Arathor as well but inevitably crumbled. So take the de jure map with a grain of salt and just know that it's there as a claim mark and not a starting size

That said, I'm also looking into what we can do to have certain scattered provinces having a "monster" culture-set where it's independent but isolated from interactions of other nations/players. Unfortunately the colonizable land that is in EU4 (which would solve some of the above issues) can't be put into Ck2 but with a few clever solutions we can make it so counties are effectively empty.

In regards to the scope, I really felt that the world needed to feel bigger than WoW, which meant that the scale of things had to be bumped up. Inevitably this means there would be larger gaps between the canonical locations that we know of in WoW. You'll find that many of these have regional names rather than being specifically named for people or settlements. Additionally a lot of the locations that originally start with names of single buildings in WoW have been "zoomed out" so that the name better reflects a location the size of a county rather than a single building. The added resolution this adds to the map because of the larger scope means we'll have to fill things in, which personally I don't mind. My first draft of the map with each location as big as a county was rather small, with each zone being a bit over a duchy in size (sometimes two). Assuming 3-4 duchies per kingdom that made the map almost equivalent to Spain, France and a few surrounding territories. Ultimately I felt the need to re-scale it simply because the Warcraft universe is always described as vast and "epic". This means a few creative liberties would need to be taken, but I prefer more places to go and people to meet more fun than Varian Wyrnn Romps Through Normandie. I appreciate your thoughts on the subject!

 

[Rafinius]

For example, even though something might be de jure Stormwind/Azeroth, it might not actually be under k_stormwind's control at a given start date, nor will it be a fully upgraded 4 castle holding province.

Sorry. When I said 2-3 baronies I actually meant 2-3 barony slots not 2-3 starting baronies. Regarding the de jure, didn't Stormwind see everything down to the Blasted Lands (minus the Troll territories of course) as de jure theirs prior the Orcish invasion?

Arathor and Amani come to mind,

Arathor had Strom, Gilneas, Alterac, Dalaran, parts of Lordearon and probably more within its territory at the height of its power though. And that may well still be less territory than the Dwarven Empire before the War of Three Hammers. Those empires would be enormous on the current map, no?

Assuming 3-4 duchies per kingdom that made the map almost equivalent to Spain, France and a few surrounding territories. Ultimately I felt the need to re-scale it simply because the Warcraft universe is always described as vast and "epic". This means a few creative liberties would need to be taken, but I prefer more places to go and people to meet more fun than Varian Wyrnn Romps Through Normandie.

It's just that that compared to vanilla CK2 the Eastern Kingdoms only had somewhere between 15-19 independent nations of any note before the arrival of the Horde. Maybe the old map was too small but judging purely by the eye it seems like Lordearon alone is considerably larger than France now. So if the map is around the third of the size of the standard CK2 map that means that even "small" countries in Azeroth are larger than Ireland. Even the word "epic" doesn't do such a scale justice.

But then that's just my opinion and not even one I hold very strongly. Rest assured that I would play your mod even if you decide to double the number of provinces from what you have right now. It'll just feel a bit less like the Azeroth I know from my headcanon but there's worse things than that.



Anyway, different subject. That first work-in-progress screenshot that you posted, what time period is it supposed to be in? Given the state of Gilneas and Lordearon I assume that it is somewhere after the Second War but before the death of Terenas, right?
If that's the case then I'm curious how far you have gotten with the conceptual design of the Hinterlands. I know that it was already pointed out to you that the Revantusk aren't actually the dominant Troll tribe in the region but I was curious why the whole culture is Troll in the first place. After all, Aerie Peak is in the western part of that region and, assuming that I got the era right, Quel'Danil is still a vassal to Quel'Thalas.

Another minor detail I noticed is that there should be a small river in the Strom county that connects to the Thandol Span bridges. Also, I know this is a very minor detail, but seeing how the water under it is continuous and the two landmasses are only connected artificially through bridges, wouldn't it make more sense for the water on the map to be continuous too and the two counties be connected by those yellow lines that allow island hoping and such?

 

[blckdrgn]

Anyway, different subject. That first work-in-progress screenshot that you posted, what time period is it supposed to be in? Given the state of Gilneas and Lordearon I assume that it is somewhere after the Second War but before the death of Terenas, right?
If that's the case then I'm curious how far you have gotten with the conceptual design of the Hinterlands. I know that it was already pointed out to you that the Revantusk aren't actually the dominant Troll tribe in the region but I was curious why the whole culture is Troll in the first place. After all, Aerie Peak is in the western part of that region and, assuming that I got the era right, Quel'Danil is still a vassal to Quel'Thalas.

The first map is an awful and incorrect bastardization of both the War2/War3 and WoW maps. It started out with me trying to layout all the different human kingdoms which then ran into the speedbump of "well this place doesn't exist anymore when this other place existed" and so it ended up a mixed mess. I fully admit it's got flaws and I aim to see them corrected before the 1.0.0 release (whenever the hell that may be) The issues with the Hinterlands trolls is pretty much in the same vein as this, it just needs a small correction once we get rolling on history files.

Another minor detail I noticed is that there should be a small river in the Strom county that connects to the Thandol Span bridges. Also, I know this is a very minor detail, but seeing how the water under it is continuous and the two landmasses are only connected artificially through bridges, wouldn't it make more sense for the water on the map to be continuous too and the two counties be connected by those yellow lines that allow island hoping and such?

This is already corrected in our newest pass on the map. We chose to trim out the physical land bridges in certain locations such as Thandol Span, Menethil, Redridge, Caer Darow, Gilneas and so on since most people expect those to be a certain size in their heads. Seeing those bridges sort of took the sense of scale away so we're removing them and replacing them with adjacency connections, allowing units to cross as you'd expect at those locations but without having a physical and visible land bridge. Maybe if we get ultra fancy and find a 3d modeler we could make a tiny thandol span/dark portal/wall of greymane to drop into the world using statics.txt? That's conjecture though as we neither have one nor a solid plan on how we'd go about that.

 

[Rafinius]

I found a few resources that might help in accuracy and/or inspire names for baronies and such including:

• A terrain-based map of pre-Cataclysm WoW.
• A less convenient one for post-Cataclysm WoW.
• The WoW pen-and-paper RPG map (notably featuring a bigger and less ugly Zul'Aman than the one in WoW that still doesn't allow flying).
• A list of all lore locations not included in the WoW game and their sources. This could be useful for ideas on how to name various cities and baronies all over Lordearon, Kul Tiras and Stormwind, among many other places.
• A (small) map showing "Lake Abasi" connected through "Greenrush River" with Darrowmere Lake in case you want to flesh out Zul'Aman more, seeing how it was pretty much only haphazardly added to WoW in a patch.

Especially that Lore Locations list seems very useful to me, with lots of ideas on how to call city baronies or were to locate major harbors. In general it may be worth it to get access to the old RPG books, even though they aren't canon anymore. Previously canon still seems like a better option than invented out of whole cloth due to no other alternatives.

Another thing I learned while on that Wiki binge is that apparently the small river you have placed in between Tirisfal and Silverpine should be wide enough to allow Kul Tiran ships to come to the aid of Lordearon Capital (source). Maybe giving Tirasan culture river navigation or something would make sense to indicate the power of their navy? Or maybe open it to most or all civilizations, thus explaining the Alterac navy dilemma, among other things? In either case, combined with connecting the various lakes of Lordearon continent that should make for an interesting addition to gameplay and an explanation on why the Horde suddenly went full navy in Tides of Darkness.
Also, Northeron (apparently devastated to near disappearance by the Cataclysm) could maybe give a starting point on what to do with the northern Twilight Highlands before the Twilight Hammer show up.

Is there anything specific you'd like me to research or are you currently at a whole 'nother point of the project and don't have any specific lore questions in mind?

 

[blckdrgn]

This is some good stuff here, for the time being though were working on a lot of scripts for characters/traits to have mechanics. I plan on looking into adding characters soonish but that'll be a slog and also by region. I imagine that province history will either be in tandem with that or after. Definitely a "future us" problem. Bookmarked for later use.

 

[theStormWeaver]

Wait, what? Are you confusing Quel'Thalas with Dalaran or has Alterac wandered that far south over the course of pre-WoW retcons? Do you have any Warcraft 2 continental maps available?

I was actually referring to the novelization, which is the most modern and official thing I can think of.

 

[Rafinius]

I was actually referring to the novelization, which is the most modern and official thing I can think of.

Which novel do you speak of that places Alterac in a place that no single game map since Warcraft 2 (including work-in-progress and RPG maps) does?

 

[theStormWeaver]

The Tides of Darkness book, like I said. Perhaps the Eastern Plaguelands were mostly empty during the second war, and thus not worth noting. But the Horde goes from Quel'Thalas through the Alterac Mountains, and appears in Lordearon ready to siege Capital City.

 

[Rafinius]

The Tides of Darkness book, like I said. Perhaps the Eastern Plaguelands were mostly empty during the second war, and thus not worth noting. But the Horde goes from Quel'Thalas through the Alterac Mountains, and appears in Lordearon ready to siege Capital City.

Huh. Do you remember the page? I have the book available but I'm not actually planning to read it all.
In any case, in Warcraft 2 the Horde attacked the Capital from the south over the lake because they decided to besiege Dalaran first. Does the book mention that siege at all? And if yes, did it happen before or after they came back from Quel'Thalas and went through Alterac? Because that would explain why they went through Alterac even if we don't move said kingdom's location away from where it is now. In fact if one is to speculate that there are more cities and/or military bases of note in Western Lordearon (omitted from games due to scaling) and that there are mountains between those and Stratholme (true both on the WC2 map and somewhat on the WoW map with its boxiness) then it makes sense to use the secretly allied Alterac to circle around from the south after defeating Quel'Thalas instead of taking the direct route to the west and fall upon the Capital from the Northeast.

 

[DorlasAnther]

The Tides of Darkness book, like I said. Perhaps the Eastern Plaguelands were mostly empty during the second war, and thus not worth noting. But the Horde goes from Quel'Thalas through the Alterac Mountains, and appears in Lordearon ready to siege Capital City.

Author of Tides of Darkness worked with Warcraft II maps instead of WoW maps (because he was an idiot, I guess, it was overall terrible book, IMO the worst out of all Warcraft books...and yes, I can support that statement). This is supported by fact that Horde went directly from Hinterlands to Quel´Thalas, something that is possible with Warcraft II maps, but not with WoW one. After they fled Quel´Thalas, they went directly through Alterac Mountains to emerge on shores of Lordamere, once again something possible with Warcraft II geography. Alliance forces go through mountains too and they are able to emerge north of Lordaeron City, once again something possible with Warcraft II geography (not with WoW one, because, you know, Stratholme, Hearthglen, Scarlet Monastery which are on the way...extremely long way, instead of short one like in Warcraft II). And then, people from Stromgarde are able to see Alterac Mountains from their capital...guess what...once again something possible only with Warcraft II geography, because in WoW, Hillsbrad is between Stromgarde and Alterac, while they are neighbours in Warcraft II.

People compain about Knaak or Golden, but honestly, Aaron Rosenberg is much, much worse. Not only does he butcher lore, he voluntarily chose to use outdated maps in book which is based on warfare, making Tides of Darkness nothing more but fanfiction.

 

[theStormWeaver]

Huh. Do you remember the page? I have the book available but I'm not actually planning to read it all.
In any case, in Warcraft 2 the Horde attacked the Capital from the south over the lake because they decided to besiege Dalaran first. Does the book mention that siege at all? And if yes, did it happen before or after they came back from Quel'Thalas and went through Alterac? Because that would explain why they went through Alterac even if we don't move said kingdom's location away from where it is now. In fact if one is to speculate that there are more cities and/or military bases of note in Western Lordearon (omitted from games due to scaling) and that there are mountains between those and Stratholme (true both on the WC2 map and somewhat on the WoW map with its boxiness) then it makes sense to use the secretly allied Alterac to circle around from the south after defeating Quel'Thalas instead of taking the direct route to the west and fall upon the Capital from the Northeast.

The book never mentions the attack on Dalaran.

Author of Tides of Darkness worked with Warcraft II maps instead of WoW maps (because he was an idiot, I guess, it was overall terrible book, IMO the worst out of all Warcraft books...and yes, I can support that statement). This is supported by fact that Horde went directly from Hinterlands to Quel´Thalas, something that is possible with Warcraft II maps, but not with WoW one. After they fled Quel´Thalas, they went directly through Alterac Mountains to emerge on shores of Lordamere, once again something possible with Warcraft II geography. Alliance forces go through mountains too and they are able to emerge north of Lordaeron City, once again something possible with Warcraft II geography (not with WoW one, because, you know, Stratholme, Hearthglen, Scarlet Monastery which are on the way...extremely long way, instead of short one like in Warcraft II). And then, people from Stromgarde are able to see Alterac Mountains from their capital...guess what...once again something possible only with Warcraft II geography, because in WoW, Hillsbrad is between Stromgarde and Alterac, while they are neighbours in Warcraft II.

People compain about Knaak or Golden, but honestly, Aaron Rosenberg is much, much worse. Not only does he butcher lore, he voluntarily chose to use outdated maps in book which is based on warfare, making Tides of Darkness nothing more but fanfiction.

Honestly, I find the WoW map frustrating for precisely the reasons that sparked this derailment. The changes made to it over WarCraft 2/3 are purely for software/hardware reasons and it makes the world seem like a series of boxes. Software engineering is more than capable of removing that restriction these days (see Pathfinder Online), but WoW is hamstrung by a decade of existence. I suppose Cataclysm would have been the perfect time to break down the 'walls' a bit.

To end this tangent and let the thread get back to the mod: Gabriel Mesta wrote the worst Blizzard book I've ever had the displeasure of reading, StarCraft: Shadow of the Xel'Naga.

 

[DorlasAnther]

Honestly, I find the WoW map frustrating for precisely the reasons that sparked this derailment. The changes made to it over WarCraft 2/3 are purely for software/hardware reasons and it makes the world seem like a series of boxes. Software engineering is more than capable of removing that restriction these days (see Pathfinder Online), but WoW is hamstrung by a decade of existence. I suppose Cataclysm would have been the perfect time to break down the 'walls' a bit.

To end this tangent and let the thread get back to the mod: Gabriel Mesta wrote the worst Blizzard book I've ever had the displeasure of reading, StarCraft: Shadow of the Xel'Naga.

Yeah, those mountains don´t look really good, although, when looking at map of Europe, there are certain boxy parts too (looking at you, Carpathian basin).
Out of curiosity, what was so bad about that book? I don´t think anyone could be worse than Rosenberg with his terrible writing, rape of lore and fact that he created 0 new characters in his book and instead did "fanservice" in terms of putting everyone and their mother into the story. We are in Silvermoon? Better put Dar´Khan Drathir there, as the only named member of Convocation of Silvermoon. Are we in Dalaran? Alright then, mention every single member of Kirin Tor we know, but don´t mention any of others, because that would require creativity and will to bring something new. That all would be tolerable, though, if he didn´t choose to make book so short. I read War of the Ancients published in same size and I noticed one thing: There is much more text on one page and the book has the same lenght. Rosenberg didn´t actually write long book, he created short story and because of that, important events from Warcraft II campaign aren´t mentioned...for some reason, all those where Horde succeeded (Stratholme, Dalaran, Tyr´s Hand, all fell in Warcraft II), which makes Horde seem just stupidly weak, yet everyone says how awfuly powerful Horde is. It´s just terrible.

 

[theStormWeaver]

I'll continue this conversation in a PM.

 

[Astanna]

apologies for not responding sooner.

Alterac's navy, if I remember correctly, is mentioned in Day of the Dragon. I'll check with who I first heard it from, though; it might've been a different book. In regards to Alterac being a land locked nation; it shouldn't be. Lordamere Lake is a major sea area, probably more equivalent to the Black Sea than anything else; and it's not well documented exactly how far Alterac stretched to the south. It would make sense for it to stretch down to the shore of Hillsbrad: consider that Stromgarde sought to annex Alterac's eastern lands, which wouldn't make much sense if Alterac wasn't touching Stromgarde--also consider that the main Lordaeron presence in Eastern Hillsbrad is the fort of Durnholde, which is built after the Second War has ended and Alterac has been dissolved; but it would also make sense for Alterac to be confined with the Fingers as their southern border.

The main areas where it throws balance out of wack for their not to be impassable mountains would be the Hinterlands and Zul'Aman. Jintha'alor needs a impassable border to their south with Stromgarde; it's a city basically carved out of the mountain with gates that would be almost impregnable if they weren't falling apart under a mad dictator. Zul'Aman similarily needs one: it survives as it does because the elves are forced through a brutal choke at the gates This is really the situation with most major troll holds--Shadra'alor perhaps being an exception.

 

[DorlasAnther]

apologies for not responding sooner.

Alterac's navy, if I remember correctly, is mentioned in Day of the Dragon. I'll check with who I first heard it from, though; it might've been a different book. In regards to Alterac being a land locked nation; it shouldn't be. Lordamere Lake is a major sea area, probably more equivalent to the Black Sea than anything else; and it's not well documented exactly how far Alterac stretched to the south. It would make sense for it to stretch down to the shore of Hillsbrad: consider that Stromgarde sought to annex Alterac's eastern lands, which wouldn't make much sense if Alterac wasn't touching Stromgarde--also consider that the main Lordaeron presence in Eastern Hillsbrad is the fort of Durnholde, which is built after the Second War has ended and Alterac has been dissolved; but it would also make sense for Alterac to be confined with the Fingers as their southern border.

Day of the Dragon was published between Warcraft II and III, so it uses outdated maps. I am not sure if it was in DotD or Behind the Dark Portal, but Gilneas was mentioned as kingdom which shouldn´t care about Alteraci inheritance, due to them being located far away from Alterac. But, as we can see from WoW, Ambermill (which belonged to Gilneas before building of their wall) was divided from Alteraci territory only by Dalaran and its surroundings. Stromgarde trying to annex eastern Alterac makes a lot of sense when looking at Warcraft maps, but not when we consider WoW maps, which are correct ones (and there was no continental shift, Warcraft maps have been retconned, so it always looked like that).
Also, those are all information from books, which are on lesser level than games. When book from 2001 mentions A, but information from game from 2004 suggests B, then game is right. Alterac really seems like landlocked nation, located in the mountains.