Religion In Far East

[talilu]

Ever since I have found out that Mahayana was the biggest branch of Buddhism, I was trying to find out data where it was practiced. Even though I found "some" info about Japan, it was just impossible to find any religious info about Korea and China,

It bugs me to no end to see China and Korea (which should have recently converted) religiously united. Maybe a forum member from Far East or that studied about Far East can shade some light upon this issue, since in EU4 when Dai Viet dies, so does Mahayana.

 

[Arrowkill]

From my understanding of Chinese religion during the Ming empire in the 1400's, Buddhism and Taoism were poorly organized religions mostly controlled by the state, while the Ming empire continued to support the Confucian religion and use the Mandate of Heaven. My knowledge of Korean religion is flimsy, but if I had to make and educated guess based on what I know about the Ming, I would say that since they were flimsy religions, the state likely still supported Confucianism and because of that, it was not the primary religion of Korea. There was also high tolerance within the faiths, so internal strife wasn't so much an issue.

 

[ywxiao]

Ever since I have found out that Mahayana was the biggest branch of Buddhism, I was trying to find out data where it was practiced. Even though I found "some" info about Japan, it was just impossible to find any religious info about Korea and China,

It bugs me to no end to see China and Korea (which should have recently converted) religiously united. Maybe a forum member from Far East or that studied about Far East can shade some light upon this issue, since in EU4 when Dai Viet dies, so does Mahayana.

Confucianism is not as much a religion itself as underlying principles on what beliefs are allowed. The government will at times review the practices of different religions and decide if they are acceptable within Confucian ideals. For example, a review early on in the game time frame determined that Manichaeism and Nestorian Christianity were not allowed, their followers were forced to convert or be deported. On the other hand Buddhism, Islam, Judaism were legal religions.

Until such a time when they decide, if ever, to work on east Asia, just imagine there are Mahayan believers in provinces that are Confucian or Shinto. At least it's better than Norse which isn't even represented at all.

 

[Frogbait]

From my understanding of Chinese religion during the Ming empire in the 1400's, Buddhism and Taoism were poorly organized religions mostly controlled by the state, while the Ming empire continued to support the Confucian religion and use the Mandate of Heaven. My knowledge of Korean religion is flimsy, but if I had to make and educated guess based on what I know about the Ming, I would say that since they were flimsy religions, the state likely still supported Confucianism and because of that, it was not the primary religion of Korea. There was also high tolerance within the faiths, so internal strife wasn't so much an issue.

To add on my knowledge of the subject matter:

Confucianism and Taoism weren't/aren't really religions like Buddhism was/is. More of moral teachings than anything else. However Confucianism taught that service to the state was an amazing moral - community > self type of ideal. Taoism was similar but I'm struggling to remember how it differed from Confucianism. Chinese governments for centuries basically taught Confucianism's teachings as what to strive towards. Korea more or less followed China to my knowledge. Buddhism being a sprout off of Hinduism was a weird mixture between morals (same kind of internal strife that Confucianism came from) and religious belief (reincarnation among other aspects). I could very well be wrong on this since I'm not the greatest at non-ancient religion/theocratic thought, but isn't Mahayana more or less the religious aspects of Buddhism combined with the moral teaching of Confucianism?

Confucianism is not as much a religion itself as underlying principles on what beliefs are allowed. The government will at times review the practices of different religions and decide if they are acceptable within Confucian ideals. For example, a review early on in the game time frame determined that Manichaeism and Nestorian Christianity were not allowed, their followers were forced to convert or be deported. On the other hand Buddhism, Islam, Judaism were legal religions.

Until such a time when they decide, if ever, to work on east Asia, just imagine there are Mahayan believers in provinces that are Confucian or Shinto. At least it's better than Norse which isn't even represented at all.

I had this tab up and forgot to hit submit so your post came through in the mean time. If you know the differences between Confucianism and Taoism, mind elaborating so I don't need to go back and find my notes / recorded lectures on it so I don't go mad?

 

[ywxiao]

I had this tab up and forgot to hit submit so your post came through in the mean time. If you know the differences between Confucianism and Taoism, mind elaborating so I don't need to go back and find my notes / recorded lectures on it so I don't go mad?

The exact difference are hard to explain in detail, both are supposed to be a guideline on how to behave. Generally Confucianism concerns more with finding your answer through history and practical examples, whereas Taoism is more about finding your answer through spiritualism and meditation. A lot of the differences IMHO were later creations due to interpretation of ancient texts and examples though.

 

[Arrowkill]

What were the specific reasons for Nestorianism and Manichaeism to be eradicated from China? How did the two religions differ in the ideals of Confucianism from Judaism and Islam?

Furthermore, this brings up the point that Confucianism really isn't a religion and in game, it should probably be syncretic in some fashion to highlight upon how other religions would be accepted if they embodied the moral teachings of Confucianism.

 

[Trin Tragula]

imagine there are Mahayan believers in provinces that are Confucian or Shinto.

Indeed EU only has one religion per province and even in other parts of the world this means that you can assume there are more faiths than the actual province religion.
The province religion is the dominant one which in most cases mean the majority religion. In some cases it does not however:
In Japan Shinto is used to cover the specific mix of religious customs in Japan (including but not restricted to actual Shinto)
In the case of Confucuanism it covers religion with Confucian ideals imposed on it.
Sikhism is the last special case I can think of (that isn't just a generalization of a set of faiths using a specific name such as Inti). There where no Sikh majority provinces on the map during any point of the period covered by EU4 but we still have some switch to it, think of this as Sikhism being politically dominant. Had we not done it this way we could basically not properly cover the impact the religion actually had, even though it was the minority faith even in the Sikh empire.

At least it's better than Norse which isn't even represented at all.

Why would we represent a religion long gone by the start of the game? If it did exist anywhere it would be very far from province majority or political influence of any kind.
It's in the nation designer as a fun fantasy option but it was really entirely irrelevant in the era.

 

[Bella Gerant]

From my understanding of Chinese religion during the Ming empire in the 1400's, Buddhism and Taoism were poorly organized religions mostly controlled by the state, while the Ming empire continued to support the Confucian religion and use the Mandate of Heaven. My knowledge of Korean religion is flimsy, but if I had to make and educated guess based on what I know about the Ming, I would say that since they were flimsy religions, the state likely still supported Confucianism and because of that, it was not the primary religion of Korea. There was also high tolerance within the faiths, so internal strife wasn't so much an issue.

Correction: The Joseon dynasty of Korea actively suppressed Buddhism and tried encouraging rationalist (largely secular and thus rejecting the belief in the supernatural found in Buddhism and Taoism) Neo-Confucianism in its stead. Monastery numbers went from in the hundreds to in the dozens.

Confucianism had a good deal of tolerance; Neo-Confucianism did not. The Joseon made Neo-Confucianism as its state ideology and rejected Buddhism.

So, while I haven't much knowledge of religion in the Ming dynasty, I can say that, in Joseon Korea, Neo-Confucianism replaced religion to a large extent and was not tolerant of belief systems with faith in the mystical (which is to say, the vast majority of religions).

 

[Arrowkill]

Correction: The Joseon dynasty of Korea actively suppressed Buddhism and tried encouraging rationalist (largely secular and thus rejecting the belief in the supernatural found in Buddhism and Taoism) Neo-Confucianism in its stead. Monastery numbers went from in the hundreds to in the dozens.

Confucianism had a good deal of tolerance; Neo-Confucianism did not. The Joseon made Neo-Confucianism as its state ideology and rejected Buddhism.

So, while I haven't much knowledge of religion in the Ming dynasty, I can say that, in Joseon Korea, Neo-Confucianism replaced religion to a large extent and was not tolerant of belief systems with faith in the mystical (which is to say, the vast majority of religions).

Thanks for the insight and correction. I really need to brush up on my history for Asia. I know bits and pieces, but as a whole I am sorely lacking.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

maybe Confucianism sould have insanely high tolerance of "heretics"(the other Eastern faiths) and maybe even heathens too, or something like the Muslim Piety or Buddhist Karma meters that can raise or lower tolerance through events where the court reviews religious practices in your nation, and possibly risk adding unrest to provinces of the 'wrong' faith.

something like this:
"The Confucian court has decided to review the merits of [religion name], and after many hours of debate have come to the conclusion that..."

1) "[religion name] is an affront to our ideals! It must be purged from our nation!" (all provences with [religion name] get +6 unrest and +10% missionary strength modifier until [date])

2) "[religion name] conforms to the teachings of Confucius, leave its followers be" (all provinces with [religion name] get -2 unrest and -100% missionary strength until [date])

and maybe have Celestial Empire factions influence be shifted by these events, or have these events be more or less frequent/useful/powerful/safe/dangerous/etc. when some factions are in power or not.

 

[zukodark]

In my mind, when you're converting provinces to Confucianism, you're actually just enforcing Confucian ideals, rather than religiously convertng them.

 

[Me_]

On a somewheat related note, I posted a suggestion for Confucian mechanic:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-idea-for-confucian-religion-mechanic.971112/

 

[JKiller96]

Islam in China is VERY downplayed. Gansu rehion had majority muslim population as did some provinces in Yunnan. This only changed after the Dungan revolt in which MANYYY muslims were massacred in these regions. At the start there from be a clear path from Yarkand and into China (Yumen-Gansu) that should be Muslim.
Considering the Dungan revolt, I think they should be represented even though in other parts of China they were treated as equals

Before anyone mentions, there were many minor revolts in the timeframe of EU4, was using the Dungan revolts as an example

 

[Shkur]

Buddhism Taoism and Confucianism are NOT religions but more like philosophical and moral guidances or laws(depending on how seriously people are follow it). From what i know the actual religion the Chinese region is closer to the Animism and Shinto(not trying to belittle the actual Chinese believes).

 

[Warial]

Buddhism Taoism and Confucianism are NOT religions but more like philosophical and moral guidances or laws(depending on how seriously people are follow it). From what i know the actual religion the Chinese region is closer to the Animism and Shinto(not trying to belittle the actual Chinese believes).

Buddhism is most certainly a religion. Taoism and Confucianism are philosophies with mystical and religious elements, they fit neither the western definition of religion, nor of philosophy.

 

[Shkur]

Buddhism is most certainly a religion. Taoism and Confucianism are philosophies with mystical and religious elements, they fit neither the western definition of religion, nor of philosophy.

No it is not a religion.Gautama Buddha was a real man not a divinity and he was teaching people a certain philosophy(i personally am not well versed in his teachings)

 

[Sian]

No it is not a religion.Gautama Buddha was a real man not a divinity and he was teaching people a certain philosophy(i personally am not well versed in his teachings)

using the same argument, Jesus (... or the historical character that he's based on ) was teaching people philosophy, not religion ... Muhammed was teaching people philosophy not religion ...

Buddhism have distinct mythical and supernatural elements in it and is much more than 'merely' a philosophical "how-to-live" such as Stoicism, Utilitarianism or Confucianism (although admittedly it had certain traits that makes it more of a debate than the others)

 

[Warial]

No it is not a religion.Gautama Buddha was a real man not a divinity and he was teaching people a certain philosophy(i personally am not well versed in his teachings)

Many of the Japanese Kami were real men once, but as you said yourself, Shinto is a religion.

 

[Dnote]

EU is too simplistic when it comes to religion and culture to accurately represent Confucianism. Whilst it may be classified as a religion, it lacks the spiritual baggage of most other religions, especially of the time period, which meant that in many cases it was compatible with other religions.

Buddhism is actually one religion that isn't very compatible with, because they both share strong "way of life" doctrine, but Buddhism includes significant spiritualism as well. However Confucianism teaches tolerance, so it was permitted to a degree.

 

[Shkur]

using the same argument, Jesus (... or the historical character that he's based on ) was teaching people philosophy, not religion ... Muhammed was teaching people philosophy not religion ...

Buddhism have distinct mythical and supernatural elements in it and is much more than 'merely' a philosophical "how-to-live" such as Stoicism, Utilitarianism or Confucianism (although admittedly it had certain traits that makes it more of a debate than the others)

Buddha was not bringing a new god to the table like Jesus and Muhammed.The mysticism and the supernatural elements are not something that he invented.They are the actual religion that he and his followers believed in.From what i know he taught his ways in regions with other religious believes.And don't forget that you are looking at a person who lived in around fifth century BCE with the eyes of a twenty first century person.Buddhism is heavily intertwined with the local religion and that makes most foreigners (like me and you) to see it as a single thing.