[Mod] Tides of Warcraft (Formerly: Azerothian Kings) - Looking for assistance!

[Dekroken]

The Empire of Arathor could be handled the same way the Empire of India is handled in CK2 or restoring the Roman Empire.

A special event triggered by a decision for humans (the culture groups) where if you control the original boundaries you can abolish old empire titles (turn them into kingdoms under the new empire?) and create the Empire of Arathor.

Edit: or maintain the original empire titles and gain another one that makes a good role-playable primary. I would suggest keeping the de jure Kingdom of Stormwind/Azeroth out of this, though.

 

[diablo630]

personally i believe lordaeron should be en empire on its own due to its shear size. Andorhal, strathholme,tyrs hand, and the capital are all equivalent to the other city-states. Not even mentioning the region of southshore/hillsbrad. I think these regions should be je jure kingdoms with southshore belonging to the arathor empire and the rest to the lordaeron empire. Even the kingdom of stormwind does not have any other cities then stormwind itself.

 

[Wildleaf]

stormwind's large enough to justify an empire-tier title too, tbh, especially since before the first war it was more powerful than any of the other kingdoms

lumping stormgarde, hillsbrad, gilneas, alterac and kul tiras under w.e arathor title you wanna do would also make sense

 

[DorlasAnther]

You could do the same thing Game of Thrones mod does: All kingdoms are empire titles that are abolished as soon as other empire conquers them and can be created by event as soon as they become independent. This could allow existence of Arathor as an empire liege to Lordaeron kingdom, for example (basically when kingdom is independent, it is an empire, but when it is conquered, it switches to kingdom), and also things like Kingdom of Gilneas being vassal of Kingdom of Stormwind (which, IMO, is a thing in Legion, as Genn works under Anduin, who is not High King of the Alliance yet).

Not at all. It has been retconned quite long ago. Kingdom has always been called Stormwind (if you don´t trust me, read the Chronicle).

Also, I would like to ask people who disagreed with this comment to explain themselves, why do they think Chronicle information about Stormwind´s nomenclature is wrong.

 

[CaptainAwesome]

You could do the same thing Game of Thrones mod does: All kingdoms are empire titles that are abolished as soon as other empire conquers them and can be created by event as soon as they become independent. This could allow existence of Arathor as an empire liege to Lordaeron kingdom, for example (basically when kingdom is independent, it is an empire, but when it is conquered, it switches to kingdom), and also things like Kingdom of Gilneas being vassal of Kingdom of Stormwind (which, IMO, is a thing in Legion, as Genn works under Anduin, who is not High King of the Alliance yet).

That sounds like a really cool idea, especially with how giant the kingdoms are. Although it's going to be more work, and doesn't let you use Empire tier titles to simulate the alliance. Though I don't think that'd really work for the alliance anyway.

Also, I would like to ask people who disagreed with this comment to explain themselves, why do they think Chronicle information about Stormwind´s nomenclature is wrong.

Probably just disagreeing with Blizzard retconning it.

 

[DorlasAnther]

That sounds like a really cool idea, especially with how giant the kingdoms are. Although it's going to be more work, and doesn't let you use Empire tier titles to simulate the alliance. Though I don't think that'd really work for the alliance anyway.

With the way CK2 works, you would most likely end up with Anduin Lothar revoking Kingdom of Lordaeron from Terenas Menethil. To be honest, I have no idea how Alliance could even be implemented in CK2.

 

[siumat]

Well, the Alliance is never mentioned to be a single state, but a complete alliance between the races and kingdoms who formed it. The almost only way to represent it and don't fuck the lore is by an alliance who doesn't need the marriages/familiar tie.

Respecting the empires, there's no need of making empires from kingdoms who never mean to be an empire. In the lore, only Arathor is called an empire, keeping Lordaeron, Gilneas, Stromgarde, Kul Tiras, Dalaran, Alterac as kingdoms on his own. I think there's no reason to change lore for mechanics, as it not that bad being a kingdom until you expand. But, besides the normal decision for creating a custom empire, I think creating some events and decision for the different kingdoms can be better, for the mechanics and the lore of the game. Is not the same read a good text exclusive for Gilneas or Lordaeron than the usual custom empire text.

 

[DorlasAnther]

Well, the Alliance is never mentioned to be a single state, but a complete alliance between the races and kingdoms who formed it. The almost only way to represent it and don't fuck the lore is by an alliance who doesn't need the marriages/familiar tie.

Respecting the empires, there's no need of making empires from kingdoms who never mean to be an empire. In the lore, only Arathor is called an empire, keeping Lordaeron, Gilneas, Stromgarde, Kul Tiras, Dalaran, Alterac as kingdoms on his own. I think there's no reason to change lore for mechanics, as it not that bad being a kingdom until you expand. But, besides the normal decision for creating a custom empire, I think creating some events and decision for the different kingdoms can be better, for the mechanics and the lore of the game. Is not the same read a good text exclusive for Gilneas or Lordaeron than the usual custom empire text.

We were talking more about game mechanics, not lore. GoT has all those empire titles localized as kingdoms, while king-tier title is "lord paramount", if he is a vassal. HIP has the exact opposite: Nicaea is localized as an empire, even though mechanically it is just a kingdom.
GoT system allows more realistic gameplay. If you become independent from your de jure empire, you get slowly eaten back. Event to create your own empire switches that kingdom from being de jure Iron Throne to de jure North/Reach/anything else, while giving owner of the Iron Throne CB to reconquer its land in single war.

Basically, making Lordaeron and all those kingdoms mechanically empires would prevent this slow reconquest that happens in CK2 (example: Croatia is always being eaten by Byzantine Empire). There could also be an event to destroy Arathor when it loses controll over most of the kingdoms, simulating how it actually split. If there is no event like this, we will see Arathor always reconquering everything (extremely slowly) and never ceasing to exist (against the lore).

 

[siumat]

But first there's need to be an Arathor formed. If is formed at all, counting that Arathor is largely forgotten, and the kingdoms are most interested in a empire of his own, with no feel of belonging for the ancient empire or his culture. There's no need for making every independent kingdom an empire on the start, only for the reconquest of the empire that can absorb them. If they earn his independence again, the empire ruler should gain a claim on the kingdom title, a strong and inherited one, but keeping the kingdom tier of the title. I think the lore should be a priority, and only be leaved aside if there's no other way of making the mechanic playable.

 

[DorlasAnther]

But first there's need to be an Arathor formed. If is formed at all, counting that Arathor is largely forgotten, and the kingdoms are most interested in a empire of his own, with no feel of belonging for the ancient empire or his culture. There's no need for making every independent kingdom an empire on the start, only for the reconquest of the empire that can absorb them. If they earn his independence again, the empire ruler should gain a claim on the kingdom title, a strong and inherited one, but keeping the kingdom tier of the title. I think the lore should be a priority, and only be leaved aside if there's no other way of making the mechanic playable.

And as I said before, this doesn´t contradict the lore. County, duchy, kingdom, empire, all those are just names in the game. Mod Lily and Oak (about 14th and 15th century in western Europe) completely changes them, for example. County is called barony, duchy is called county, kingdom is called duchy and empire is called kingdom. England has icon of the empire, but is called kingdom and nobody says that it goes against history, because England is an empire. Same thing in GoT: Kingdom of the North isn´t called Empire of the North, nobody says that it goes against the lore to have it in the game as an empire. And the same thing would be with human kingdoms: Empires in the game, but called kingdoms and in all terms actually being kingdoms.

We should also understand what are the empires in this game. Empires are basically superkingdoms that can have other kingdoms as vassals. We have multiple examples in the lore where one of 7 kingdoms could act as a liege to other: Lordaeron being liege to Stormwind in Second War (event would release it as soon as its lands are conquered), securing they fight together no matter what. Dalaran being vassal to Othmar Garithos (who could have custom title which could change to Lordaeron if he wins the war), simulating how obedient and dependant it was on him. Gilneas being vassal to Stormwind after Cataclysm. But neither of these situations could be simulated if kingdoms like Stormwind or Lordaeron are in terms of the game kingdoms and not empires. Making 7 kingdoms empires allows to simulate sometimes complicate relations between them. Not to mention that creating Empire of Lordaeron makes no sense in the lore. Even rulers of Arathor weren´t called emperors, but kings and Arathor is many times called a kingdom, not an empire.

Other example where lore title would be wrong to apply to CK2 are dwarves. Thaurissan rulers are called emperors, but would you make Dark Iron clan an empire, while Khaz Modan would be a kingdom, because Magni is a king? And if Dagran Thaurissan II. would be ruler of both Khaz Modan and Dark Iron clan (or Shadowforge, name doesn´t matter now), would Dark Iron clan be his main title, while Khaz Modan would become his secondary, lower rank title?

 

[blckdrgn]

If I may, I'd like to share what our current plan is. Quick note, "current" does not mean final. If there are better solutions, I'll do my best to take them into account, but I'd like to share what we'd like to do and why.

With the Arathi Troll War bookmark, the Empire of Arathor will be Empire tier (obviously), but what this will ultimately mean for the other kingdoms is that they'll be king tier in order to actually fit under the Empire as a vassal. That may lead to Lordaeron being a bit large for a kingdom, but we can work around that easily. The second bookmark (War of The Three Hammers) will take places thousands of years after the Arathi events, and so we'll just have the Empire disbanded and not able to be reconstructed without some serious effort. I'd like to avoid having inter-vassalization on the level of the human kingdoms simply because in the history of warcraft, they never interfered with each others business, each was a king in their own right and so having them on the same tier makes sense for that.

This also helps avoid situations like in AGoT where the north enjoys revoking titles from the Manderlays, something that's a bit absurd in the setting, but due to mechanics it will happen often. In regards to the Alliance, I think the better solution isnt one of forced marriages or vassalship, but to fix the underlying issue here. Which is that forming an Alliance between you and another kingdom is a pain in the ass. I think through a new set of decisions we can work on making something along the lines of Defensive-Pacts that don't require a marriage to function, especially if you have a massive threat that could be considered mutual. I'd like to avoid any kind of vassal based mechanics where ever possible with the Alliance system, mechanically it's a nightmare to have it make sense, and canonically, I think Kosak talked about how leaders of the alliance dont meddle with the others' area of rule.

The Horde might function a bit differently however. Since clans/tribes/minor hordes will likely be all King level (ogres, orcs, and others) it makes sense to have them fall under an Empire tier title that is just "The Horde" for when it comes. Given that both; A: they need to be bound together for joint efforts, and B: that The Horde really was under one single Warchief at a time. In the cases where the Amani (who will likely be either king or empire level) join the horde an actual alliance can be formed through a decision or event.

Make no mistake, I'm fully aware that we can mess with the localized names of each title (and I fully intend to in certain situations!) At the end of the day though I will try to err on the side of things that make the game more enjoyable to play. Don't get me wrong, I will do everything I can to make mechanics and lore do the very fine dance of death.

That said though, I enjoy seeing this discussion, it helps me see what other people are expecting and allows me to refine my own ideas for what I'm working on.

 

[DorlasAnther]

Haven´t you thought about bookmark for fall of Arathor (about 1k years in the past)? Lorewise, city-states of Lordaeron, Alterac, Gilneas and Kul Tiras became independent at approximately the same time, after which most of Arathi nobility went south, where they created Stormwind. Maybe there could be some events where those cities colonize new lands and try to become independent from Arathor. Ruler of city-state would try to increase the power and area of his land, while also trying to lower influence of "emperors" on it and eventually becoming independent, while "emperors" would try to hold all of them at short leash, to prevent fracturing of Arathor.
IMO, it would be even more interesting than Troll Wars scenario, where those cities would only be created or there would be Arathor and Quel´Thalas against Amani Empire.
What I am trying to say is that Fall of Arathor scenario could provide gameplay connected to lore lasting for many decades (those things didn´t happen in one year) instead of few years (as is often case in GoT, where after few decades, nothing resembles starting situation and ambitions of players often completely change).

 

[blckdrgn]

It has been considered, yes. Part of the napkin idea I had written down for the collapse was an even chain with the requirements of needing N different cultures and N different de jure king level titles existing within the realm. The plan was to have the cultures start to split after a period of time, very similar to how in vanilla where Norse eventually splits into the different Scandinavian cultures. Then, assuming the player wanted to massively expand, they'd need the king titles in order to actually handle the land that they conquered, so say (strictly example number here) 4 of the King level titles within the empire existed. The King level titles are important here, since the event chain goes through a series of choices that will eventually dissolve the Arathor Empire title entirely. Given that it's the top level title in the realm, we then will see all of the king level titles out as independent. Scattering in a near identical fashion to what happened over time.

However, when it comes specifically to having a bookmark for that event, it's a bit hard to find something for the rest of the world to do around that time frame. Ultimately, with everyone else sort of having a non-eventful bookmark, and Arathor having a "my realm is falling apart" event chain, having a bookmark for it might be a bit stale in terms of things you can do, aside from just desperately trying to stop the inevitable. That's not to say we can't revisit the concept in the future, just that there isn't much there to work with that would be a big draw for people looking for a fun scenario.

 

[diablo630]

t

Haven´t you thought about bookmark for fall of Arathor (about 1k years in the past)? Lorewise, city-states of Lordaeron, Alterac, Gilneas and Kul Tiras became independent at approximately the same time, after which most of Arathi nobility went south, where they created Stormwind. Maybe there could be some events where those cities colonize new lands and try to become independent from Arathor. Ruler of city-state would try to increase the power and area of his land, while also trying to lower influence of "emperors" on it and eventually becoming independent, while "emperors" would try to hold all of them at short leash, to prevent fracturing of Arathor.
IMO, it would be even more interesting than Troll Wars scenario, where those cities would only be created or there would be Arathor and Quel´Thalas against Amani Empire.
What I am trying to say is that Fall of Arathor scenario could provide gameplay connected to lore lasting for many decades (those things didn´t happen in one year) instead of few years (as is often case in GoT, where after few decades, nothing resembles starting situation and ambitions of players often completely change).

o

to be honest i dont think that lordaeron was ever part of Arathor because the nobles bought the land to form their own realm. I see it more like when the barbarians who fought for the roman empire as it fell apart were given land as compensation as an independent realm.

 

[siumat]

The Horde is more easy to represent than the Alliance. The others leaders of the Horde accept the chosen Warchief as his ruler, but obviusly the Warchief can't be everywhere, and can be sometimes disobeyed. Is the case of Garrosh, who banned and told Sylvannas to not use the forsaken Blight, but she use it anyway without the presence of a horde representative. In game, it can be represented as you say as an empire tier title with kingdom/duchy vassals, representing the power they have in the horde. The main races are obviusly kingdom tier, but others like revantusk trols can be a duchy. The Horde seems to be a elective monachy, but only the actual leader choise who is going to be his heir, like Thrall chose Garrosh

 

[DorlasAnther]

to be honest i dont think that lordaeron was ever part of Arathor because the nobles bought the land to form their own realm. I see it more like when the barbarians who fought for the roman empire as it fell apart were given land as compensation as an independent realm.

Chronicle changed it. Lordaeron (named after Lordain, Arathi commander who fell in Troll wars), Gilneas, Kul Tiras and Alterac were city-states of Arathor that became more and more autonomous and powerful, while Strom stagnated because of its position and rough terrain (which was amazing in times when trolls controlled forests and thus were unable to carry surprise attacks on Strom, which was in the middle of plains). Eventually, they became completely independent and remaining Arathi nobility left for promised land in the south, while those who remained created Stromgarde.

 

[blckdrgn]

Wanted to give you guys a peek at the Amani Empire breakdown. (note: colors are not final)

 

[siumat]

From what I know, the Revantusk are a minor tribe who only occupied the coast of Hinterlands, with the Vilebranch having the most of the region, and the Whiterback occupying the second vast part. And quote from the wiki; "The Vilebranch tribe was the strongest and held the ancient Amani bastions of Jintha'Alor and the Altar of Zul. The Witherbark tribe was weaker than the Vilebranch, residing amongst the old temples of Shadra'Alor and the ruins of Hiri'Watha. The weakest of the three tribes was the Revantusk tribe"

 

[blckdrgn]

From what I know, the Revantusk are a minor tribe who only occupied the coast of Hinterlands, with the Vilebranch having the most of the region, and the Whiterback occupying the second vast part. And quote from the wiki; "The Vilebranch tribe was the strongest and held the ancient Amani bastions of Jintha'Alor and the Altar of Zul. The Witherbark tribe was weaker than the Vilebranch, residing amongst the old temples of Shadra'Alor and the ruins of Hiri'Watha. The weakest of the three tribes was the Revantusk tribe"

This is correct for the bookmarks closer to the "present day". For the amani bookmark, we're mixing it up slightly so that there's a bit of variance and difference between start dates.

 

[Raga-Zun]

Everyday i check this thread to see any progress or new screenshots, pleasantly surprised today.