EU4 - Development Diary - 7th of March 2017

[Metz]

No Taoism in the game?

 

[rho]

How do you know? Have they been leaked? Unearthed on Steam somehow?

It was on the Paradox Twitch stream last week.

 

[Ashen Rain]

With all

Let's not hard-lock humanist for another faith. Access to this tolerance means you can actually pick other things and not be a unity tanked rebel hell. How good Confucian is will depend on the specifics of the events and harmonization.

Right now, Confucian is as bad as generic pagans (animist and totemist), with no tolerance for heathens any longer, terrible conversion power that lowers tolerance of heathens to leave still bad conversion power.

In a vacuum, the proposed changes are still weaker than Christianity and Islam by a margin, and that remains the case unless you're emperor of China. If you count emperor of China you must also count HRE emperor...Christianity is still in front easily and without the "lack of harmony" downsides.

With all due respect, having admin tech cost -10% puts it far above generic pagans. And they are effectively tying humanist in with new Confucian already by attaching the yearly harmony to it. Never mind the fact that humanist ideas are arguable the best group for conquest in the game even without the religious tolerances and stacks incredibly well with Ming ideas.

 

[lordvagrant]

@DDRJake

Protestant, Reformed, and Orthodox folks need mechanical incentives to not want to convert each other.

The Protestants and Reformed were generally much friendlier towards the Orthodox and friendlier with each other than they were with Catholics, yet current mechanics had them treating each other on the same level with Catholics.

There should be some way for Protestants and Reformed to treat each other as 'true faith', and for Orthodox folks to accept Reformed, Protestant, or Catholic (but only one of the three) as true faith.

Perhaps a change to how "Tolerated Heretics" works

 

[TheMeInTeam]

With all

With all due respect, having admin tech cost -10% puts it far above generic pagans. And they are effectively tying humanist in with new Confucian already by attaching the yearly harmony to it. Never mind the fact that humanist ideas are arguable the best group for conquest in the game even without the religious tolerances and stacks incredibly well with Ming ideas.

Generic pagans have functionally similar conversion ability, -20% stab cost, and -2 unrest to go with +1 prestige. I'm not sure 1440 admin spread over > 300 years is matching up to that so well, especially since the -stab cost will itself save several hundred ADM to make the relative variance between Confucian and Animist smaller still.

We don't need more jokes like Buddhism.

 

[Philadelphus]

Some interesting mechanics for Confucianism here. I see low harmony penalizes Meritocracy, but about Confucian countries that aren't a Celestial Empire? Does it affect legitimacy instead?

Also, I couldn't quite tell from the diary, do you need to own a province of a specific religion/religious group in order to harmonize with it, or merely border it?

 

[Grand Historian]

You mean like catholics having tolerance of heretics -1? Or Aztecs literally having their civilization end if they don't pass reforms? Having negative attributes included is an established trend already. But I would settle for advisor cost reduction (advisors to the emperor and such)

Base bonuses. Aztecs have nothing wrong with their base bonuses, it's their mechanic that gives them a rightful penalty. No religion should be punished for merely existing.

 

[Snorlaxatives_]

Honestly this mechanic seems kind of underpowered for non-blobbing games, and the gradual acceptance of other religions seems like it would be widely applicable, not just to Confucians.

I expect the Extended Timeline mod creators to apply some variant of this to Secularism.

 

[zedyue]

speaking of jewish provinces. I do wish there were some events to have jewish provinces pop up in places in europe or north america (post colonial) rarely just to give that extra bit of chance. I know they were always super minorities within cities WITHIN ghettos, but it would still be interesting to have rare sikh-like events to make a province or two.

I know you can always blast your way to africa asap but that's not always entertaining

 

[Axe99]

Cheers for the DD DDRJake More great changes imo, this and the mandate of heaven mechanics sound like they could interact well together .

 

[Miezi210]

@DDRJake

Quick question: After forming Qing as one of the Manchu tribes, will the Tengri be harmonized automatically since the true faith now is the Confucianism?

Thx a lot

 

[Honon]

Base bonuses. Aztecs have nothing wrong with their base bonuses, it's their mechanic that gives them a rightful penalty. No religion should be punished for merely existing.

Noticed you didn't mention or refute Catholics having a -1 tolerance of heretics. That alone refutes your claim, unless you disagree with that too. However, I expect, if you didn't believe that Catholisism should have -1 tolerance of Heretics, you would of said so. Of course with people who want an op Ming, it's OK for those European religions to have negative stats?

Actually with the ability to convert entire religious groups in one fell swoop for dozens or hundreds of provinces in one swoop, tied with immediately unlocking the full thousand development, having no real competition for the mandate of heaven, having no real tech penalty, the ability to get free monarch points from tributaries, and other bonuses they are being given in mandate of heaven, I am wondering at what is being put in place to prevent the return of the Mingdozer.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Noticed you didn't mention or refute Catholics having a -1 tolerance of heretics. That alone refutes your claim, unless you disagree with that too. However, I expect, if you didn't believe that Catholisism should have -1 tolerance of Heretics, you would of said so. Of course with people who want an op Ming, it's OK for those European religions to have negative stats?

Actually with the ability to convert entire religious groups in one fell swoop for dozens or hundreds of provinces in one swoop, tied with immediately unlocking the full thousand development, having no real competition for the mandate of heaven, having no real tech penalty, the ability to get free monarch points from tributaries, and other bonuses they are being given in mandate of heaven, I am wondering at what is being put in place to prevent the return of the Mingdozer.

He has argued against that penalty on Catholics often. It's strange though, because there's a practical disconnect.

If a religion gave +1 unrest but -90% core creation cost, I doubt arguments about having a penalty "just for existing" would carry any merit.

That's an extreme example. Catholicism vs say Buddhism or Confucianism right now is a less extreme example, but is the same argument otherwise. In 1.19 the Abrahamic faiths are that much better, with only Hinduism whimpering into the discussion for humanist path outside of Abrahamic.

There is nothing *fundamentally* wrong with a baseline penalty if the benefits offset it by enough. There is something fundamentally wrong with religions that are so bad that it is always strictly better to switch from a utility perspective.

 

[Rikissa]

I once had a Jewish Austria in a CK2 save which I converted to EU4 (this Jewish state arose without my intervention)

I mean, that's an extreme edge case, but it doesn't hurt to include a line for Judaism

 

[Leo Lanchester]

What's the next update after shito ? I can't wait anymore to enjoy it !

 

[Honon]

He has argued against that penalty on Catholics often. It's strange though, because there's a practical disconnect.

If a religion gave +1 unrest but -90% core creation cost, I doubt arguments about having a penalty "just for existing" would carry any merit.

That's an extreme example. Catholicism vs say Buddhism or Confucianism right now is a less extreme example, but is the same argument otherwise. In 1.19 the Abrahamic faiths are that much better, with only Hinduism whimpering into the discussion for humanist path outside of Abrahamic.

There is nothing *fundamentally* wrong with a baseline penalty if the benefits offset it by enough. There is something fundamentally wrong with religions that are so bad that it is always strictly better to switch from a utility perspective.

First, he is the one arguing against baseline penalties not I. I was interested in the fact that he addressed one half of his examples while ignoring the other more inconvenient one. Also, Catholic isn't a very great religion and it is usually better to switch out of it as soon as you can. So, by your estimation, there is something wrong with Catholicism.

Though this is just a side item for me. I am still more interested in how they are going to keep the mingdozer from returning.

 

[bbqftw]

First, he is the one arguing against baseline penalties not I. I was interested in the fact that he addressed one half of his examples while ignoring the other more inconvenient one. Also, Catholic isn't a very great religion and it is usually better to switch out of it as soon as you can. So, by your estimation, there is something wrong with Catholicism.

Though this is just a side item for me. I am still more interested in how they are going to keep the mingdozer from returning.

Catholic is top-tier in SP...

In MP which prioritizes military bonuses its different though

 

[Grand Historian]

Noticed you didn't mention or refute Catholics having a -1 tolerance of heretics. That alone refutes your claim, unless you disagree with that too. However, I expect, if you didn't believe that Catholisism should have -1 tolerance of Heretics, you would of said so. Of course with people who want an op Ming, it's OK for those European religions to have negative stats?

You... you're new here, aren't you?

Maybe you should click on that link in my signature before throwing around accusations of turning a blind eye?

Actually with the ability to convert entire religious groups in one fell swoop for dozens or hundreds of provinces in one swoop, tied with immediately unlocking the full thousand development, having no real competition for the mandate of heaven, having no real tech penalty, the ability to get free monarch points from tributaries, and other bonuses they are being given in mandate of heaven, I am wondering at what is being put in place to prevent the return of the Mingdozer.

This.

 

[Dakka]

Maybe you should click on that link in my signature before throwing around accusations of turning a blind eye?

In his defense, if he is on mobile signatures don't appear

 

[Trin Tragula]

@DDRJake

Quick question: After forming Qing as one of the Manchu tribes, will the Tengri be harmonized automatically since the true faith now is the Confucianism?

Thx a lot

Yes.