Question for Wiz Dev Diary 63

[Brent15]

I would greatly prefer a distinction between synthetics you created before your "ascension" and those who were converted from your original race. That they all unify into one synthetic species is disappointing and I think they deserve to be separate. After all, there is a difference - one having its origin in its creator race and the other actually being a digitized version of the creator race's uploaded minds.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

AS I said, Don´t you think that, if you managed to progress THAT far in the Synth Ascension Path, then haven´t you PROVED, beyond doubt, that you can handle the knowledge?

I prefer my primary antagonist to be irrational and arrogant. It makes it funner to watch him fall.

And if you need a rationale, what you do as a race after ascension would look alot like the AI Rebellion crisis to an outside observer. Given that's the crisis they've been trying to prevent, I buy that they see you as THE THING THEY MUST STOP.

 

[Connll]

I prefer my primary antagonist to be irrational and arrogant. It makes it funner to watch him fall.

And if you need a rationale, what you do as a race after ascension would look alot like the AI Rebellion crisis to an outside observer. Given that's the crisis they've been trying to prevent, I buy that they see you as THE THING THEY MUST STOP.

Don´t you think that asking the super-science guys to be irrational is an oxymoron?

Also, considering that, once you have converted your species to the Machine, you do not:

1- Send him a "To do list" which includes "complete erradication of the flesh, like the AI Consciousness does;
2- Try to subvert/reprogram the synths of other empires;
3- Become unable to conduct diplomacy with the other star nations;
4- Change your behavior towards other sentient life, for better or worse;

Their scientists would conclude that no, there is no evidence of you becoming the AI crisis.

Of course, assuming that you weren´t antagonistic towards them to begin with. Otherwise, they would probably be testing their Tachyon Lances on you anyway, just like everyone else.

 

[Lothmar]

Don´t you think that asking the super-science guys to be irrational is an oxymoron?

Also, considering that, once you have converted your species to the Machine, you do not:

1- Send him a "To do list" which includes "complete erradication of the flesh, like the AI Consciousness does;
2- Try to subvert/reprogram the synths of other empires;
3- Become unable to conduct diplomacy with the other star nations;
4- Change your behavior towards other sentient life, for better or worse;

Their scientists would conclude that no, there is no evidence of you becoming the AI crisis.

Of course, assuming that you weren´t antagonistic towards them to begin with. Otherwise, they would probably be testing their Tachyon Lances on you anyway, just like everyone else.

True but it's kind of like how the brotherhood of steel would be like 'Mine' and try to conquer you if simply to keep your for their own benefit.

Even though oddly enough that's not how they acted with synths and the instute in F4... *shrug*

 

[Connll]

True but it's kind of like how the brotherhood of steel would be like 'Mine' and try to conquer you if simply to keep your for their own benefit.

Even though oddly enough that's not how they acted with synths and the instute in F4... *shrug*

Isn´t that the Awakened KK (Watchful Regulators) Attitude towards EVERYONE?

 

[Suzaku]

We're really busy finalizing Utopia right now, but I'll quickly answer some of the most frequently asked questions. Further answers will have to wait, sorry!

There are no new droid portraits, but it's something we do plan to add in the future.

Your new synthetic race will include any previously built synths, and you create more pops by building them.

When you complete the synthetic evolution, any farms worked by synths or Pops turning into synths turn into power plants.

Non-awakened Keepers of Knowledge will not attack ascended synth empires, but awakened ones will.

Armies are rebalanced so that gene warriors are no longer simply best at everything.

You will be able to modify species at any time, the 'must have trait points' restriction is gone.

You do not need to own a species' homeworld to modify them.

What about interactions between AI crisis and robot ascended synth?

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

Don´t you think that asking the super-science guys to be irrational is an oxymoron?

No, it's not. They can be hyper-competent in explaining how universe works and still be deluded in any sociological topic. High inteligence and scientific genius could go in pair with deuchery or paranoia, and I dont see any problems with that.

 

[The Founder]

1- The KK are all about preventing dangerous/forbidden Knowledge from falling in the hands of those who can´t handle it, right? If your species has mastered AI and robotics tech to the point that you can freely convert flesh sentience into machine sentience, then you have more than proved that you CAN handle such knowledge, and won´t let a galaxy wide virus like the Machine Consciuosness to run amok.

Once you do go Ascension, you effectively avoided any danger of AI Rebellion comming from you or through you.
And once a FE awakens they tend to attack everyone not bowing to them. I do not think that they will go in particular after you.

2- I would be Materialists antagonizing Materialists, which is kinda odd.

Materialsit antagonized Materialist sicne 1.0, when they hated you for AI research.
But again, I do not think they will go after you in particular. I read it as "they declare war on you as on any other Materialist that has no danger of AI rebellion starting".

As long as the spiritualist FE's and AE's despise the heathens forfeiting their biological bodies for soulless tin cans, I'm in.

For the Spiritualist the Continuty paradox is clearly not a paradox:
You soul moved on with your bodies death. What is walking there is a soulless machine. Making your planets "abandoned, but with strong automated defenses" for them. Rather the a empire run by fellow sentient, soul-capable beings.

I would greatly prefer a distinction between synthetics you created before your "ascension" and those who were converted from your original race. That they all unify into one synthetic species is disappointing and I think they deserve to be separate. After all, there is a difference - one having its origin in its creator race and the other actually being a digitized version of the creator race's uploaded minds.

Technological Ascension is clearly a Materialist Ascension (as much as Psionic is Spiritualist). And Materialists already considered Synths equals when they were still Organic.

What about interactions between AI crisis and robot ascended synth?

I know that AI accord prevents the crisis from spreading, but it does not block Infiltration or Invasion. Ascesnion should work similar.
All Crisis are rather extreme in thier "hostile to everyone" approach. Could well be it is made a Hive Mind AI Empire or a Empire considered all non true Synths as "tainted".

 

[Connll]

No, it's not. They can be hyper-competent in explaining how universe works and still be deluded in any sociological topic. High inteligence and scientific genius could go in pair with deuchery or paranoia, and I dont see any problems with that.

They can? They can.

Makes any sense for them to actually act irrational/allow themselves to be deluded? No.

What you are asking is pretty much asking if a person can be religious and NOT believe in God or the Spiritual.

They can? Yes, they can.

Would that make any sense? No.

Once you do go Ascension, you effectively avoided any danger of AI Rebellion comming from you or through you.
And once a FE awakens they tend to attack everyone not bowing to them. I do not think that they will go in particular after you.

Isn´t that pretty much what I have been saying for the last few posts?

Materialsit antagonized Materialist sicne 1.0, when they hated you for AI research.
But again, I do not think they will go after you in particular. I read it as "they declare war on you as on any other Materialist that has no danger of AI rebellion starting".

True, but at that time, we didn´t have features and mechanisms that we will have in Utopia.

Once Utopia Arrives, don´t you think it would make more sense/be more thematically appropriate, that the Materialists FE/AE to oppose the Spiritualist Ascension Path, and vice-versa?

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Don´t you think that asking the super-science guys to be irrational is an oxymoron?

No. For the following 2 reasons.

1. They stopped being the super science guys a long time ago. Now they're the resting on their laurels, assuming they know better than the rest of us, and doing no new research guys.

2. They're not being irrational. They're being distrustful of machine intelligence, which is their default position, for reasons that were presumably perfectly rational a long time ago and may very well be rational now. I mean, if you play anyway close to how I play, you're a major threat to the stability of the galaxy.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I would greatly prefer a distinction between synthetics you created before your "ascension" and those who were converted from your original race. That they all unify into one synthetic species is disappointing and I think they deserve to be separate. After all, there is a difference - one having its origin in its creator race and the other actually being a digitized version of the creator race's uploaded minds.

That distinction is effectively academic, especially since new POPs are built the same as regular Synths- at the point you've mass-uploaded, the difference between an artificial mind and an organic mind ceases to be relevant.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

They can? They can.

Makes any sense for them to actually act irrational/allow themselves to be deluded? No.

What you are asking is pretty much asking if a person can be religious and NOT believe in God or the Spiritual.

They can? Yes, they can.

Would that make any sense? No.

Two words: Ben Carson.

You can be brilliant in one field and an utterly ignorant fool in others.

The Keepers of Knowledge are incredibly fearful of an AI revolt- and would be a better springboard than an entire space-empire of uploads in lovely robotic bodies, just begging to be suborned and taken over by a rogue artificial intelligence?

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

That distinction is effectively academic, especially since new POPs are built the same as regular Synths- at the point you've mass-uploaded, the difference between an artificial mind and an organic mind ceases to be relevant.

It's not an academic distinction when it's the difference between a slave planet full of synthetic miners being spurred on by an slave processing plant and other technologies and suppressed by armed guards, or a planet full of recently liberated citizens who now have strong opinions about democracy and who have managed to turn egalitarian into the second most influential faction in my empire.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

They can? They can.

Makes any sense for them to actually act irrational/allow themselves to be deluded? No.

What you are asking is pretty much asking if a person can be religious and NOT believe in God or the Spiritual.

They can? Yes, they can.

Would that make any sense? No.

The falacy you did here is confusing rational with pragmatic.
The thing is, even if they dont believe in gods and are calculating, scientific minds, it still doesn't forbid them to be paranoid, neither remove the emotions from equation. Remember they already had a Robot War and have traumatic experience with it. Maybe even their empire has fallen becouse of the AI rebelion. Maybe they even did every precaution to prevent it and they still failed. They also must know that with few hundred races building advaced AI - the possibility of making malicious robots grows with every empire rising.

 

[Connll]

No. For the following 2 reasons.

1. They stopped being the super science guys a long time ago. Now they're the resting on their laurels, assuming they know better than the rest of us, and doing no new research guys.

Just because they stopped the journey for their full potential, doesn´t mean that they aren´t still the super-science guys, as demonstrated by the Fanatic Materialist Ethos.

2. They're not being irrational. They're being distrustful of machine intelligence, which is their default position, for reasons that were presumably perfectly rational a long time ago and may very well be rational now.

Being Distrustful is their default position. It is also their starting posion to not let dangerous knowledge to fall in the hands of those who can´t handle it (which, in their perspective, is EVERYONE ELSE). That isn´t irrational.

But for them to still oppose you even after you have PROVEN, BEYOND DOUBT, that you can handle this knowledge (Synth Ascension, in this case) is indeed irrational.

I mean, if you play anyway close to how I play, you're a major threat to the stability of the galaxy.

In this case, they are going to oppose you for reasons entirely unrelated to the Synth Ascension and AI techs, don´t you think?

Two words: Ben Carson.

You can be brilliant in one field and an utterly ignorant fool in others.

The Keepers of Knowledge are incredibly fearful of an AI revolt- and would be a better springboard than an entire space-empire of uploads in lovely robotic bodies, just begging to be suborned and taken over by a rogue artificial intelligence?

But Ben Carson is ONE example, ONE individual, out of millions. The exception to the rule

What you are proposing is that the Materialist FE is an entire civilization of Ben Carsons.

Which, in hindsight, scares me even more than their Tachyon Lances...

The falacy you did here is confusing rational with pragmatic.
The thing is, even if they dont believe in gods and are calculating, scientific minds, it still doesn't forbid them to be paranoid, neither remove the emotions from equation. Remember they already had a Robot War and have traumatic experience with it. Maybe even their empire has fallen becouse of the AI rebelion. Maybe they even did every precaution to prevent it and they still failed. They also must know that with few hundred races building advaced AI - the possibility of making malicious robots grows with every empire rising.

Absolutely true, But their scientific minds ALSO mean that they will search for evidence, evaluate it, and do their best to decide their course of action according to the facts.
They´ll most certainly watch your neck like a hunting dog, but once they find that there is nothing different about your civilization behavior, they will probably leave you alone.

Also, in the particular example I gave you, the difference between "pragmatic" and "rational" is pretty much non-existant

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

But for them to still oppose you even after you have PROVEN, BEYOND DOUBT, that you can handle this knowledge (Synth Ascension, in this case) is indeed irrational.

What if a rogue AI hijacks this upload civilization later down the road, suborning their massive resources to wage a surprise war against organics?

There. That's a doubt about whether they can handle it or not.

 

[Connll]

What if a rogue AI hijacks this upload civilization later down the road, suborning their massive resources to wage a surprise war against organics?

There. That's a doubt about whether they can handle it or not.

Actually, there isn´t any *doubt* about it

A Synth ascended empire is Immune to the AI counsciousness, as are the ones who sign the AI Accord, so your point is moot.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Actually, there isn´t any *doubt* about it

A Synth ascended empire is Immune to the AI counsciousness, as are the ones who sign the AI Accord, so your point is moot.

Game mechanics =/= lore. Stellaris has plenty of mismatch between the two- I see no reason why the Keepers of Knowledge wouldn't be concerned that a large upload civilization could potentially be corrupted/infected by a rogue AI at a later point. Remember that they've existed for far longer than a given game runs- giving your AI rights during a game doesn't make them trust you more because you could always rescind those or encounter a more aggressive AI that isn't concerned about forcibly "recruiting" synthetics to its cause.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Just because they stopped the journey for their full potential, doesn´t mean that they aren´t still the super-science guys, as demonstrated by the Fanatic Materialist Ethos.

Actually it does. You're not a scientist if you're not pushing the boundaries of knowledge. These guys are, at best, archivists and librarians. Don't get me wrong, I love archivists and librarians, but they're not super science guys.

Being Distrustful is their default position. It is also their starting posion to not let dangerous knowledge to fall in the hands of those who can´t handle it (which, in their perspective, is EVERYONE ELSE). That isn´t irrational.

But for them to still oppose you even after you have PROVEN, BEYOND DOUBT, that you can handle this knowledge (Synth Ascension, in this case) is indeed irrational.

Saying BEYOND DOUBT in all caps just serves to draw attention to the part of your post that you can't prove. You have NO IDEA what the source and extent of their doubts are, and just because YOU are satisfied that the player can handle this knowledge doesn't mean THEY are. And their concerns are more valid than yours because they know more than you, just ask them!

In this case, they are going to oppose you for reasons entirely unrelated to the Synth Ascension and AI techs, don´t you think?

If they were humanitarians maybe, but they're not. As we've established they have no problems with genocide and war, just so long as it's one meatbag killing another. They don't perk up and take notice until it's a robot killing meatbags.

 

[Connll]

Game mechanics =/= lore. Stellaris has plenty of mismatch between the two- I see no reason why the Keepers of Knowledge wouldn't be concerned that a large upload civilization could potentially be corrupted/infected by a rogue AI at a later point. Remember that they've existed for far longer than a given game runs- giving your AI rights during a game doesn't make them trust you more because you could always rescind those or encounter a more aggressive AI that isn't concerned about forcibly "recruiting" synthetics to its cause.

Being concerned about an Empire Sunth Ascending means that they would keep an eye on them and watch that develppment closely, not necessarilçy waging war outright.

Given that they have existed for so long, it means that they know EXACtLY what a AI uprising is like and what they should look for.

And after a few years or decades watching your star nation and finding NOTHING remotely hinting to an AI rebellion...

Actually it does. You're not a scientist if you're not pushing the boundaries of knowledge. These guys are, at best, archivists and librarians. Don't get me wrong, I love archivists and librarians, but they're not super science guys.

Even if they are stagnating, they STILL have science far beyond what everyone else has, so yes. Super-science guys.

And beinf Fanatic Materialists means that they still value evidence gathering and will mostly likely take decisions based on said evidence.

Saying BEYOND DOUBT in all caps just serves to draw attention to the part of your post that you can't prove. You have NO IDEA what the source and extent of their doubts are, and just because YOU are satisfied that the player can handle this knowledge doesn't mean THEY are. And their concerns are more valid than yours because they know more than you, just ask them!

Wrong.

The KK worry about dangerous techs because of their Crisis-triggering Potential. In this particular case, the AI rebellion.

If you have completed the Synthetic Ascension Path, You CAN´T have the AI rebellion anymore. You made it an impossibility to happen or even affect anything inside your borders.
So yes. If you have ascended as Synth you HAVE proven you can handle that knowledge. Period.

If they were humanitarians maybe, but they're not. As we've established they have no problems with genocide and war, just so long as it's one meatbag killing another. They don't perk up and take notice until it's a robot killing meatbags.

Wrong again. They don´t take notice until a robot is REBELLING against meatbags. Droid armies, for instance, don´t upset them, nor Sentient Ship computers, so long as they work for Organics.

Annd who the hell needs to be an humanitarian to oppose you, if, as you said yourself, your playsyle threatens the entire galaxy? They would oppose you so they wouldn´t be the next target, eventually (obviously this means Awakening first, but I digress)