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EU4 - Development Diary - 14th of March 2017

Good day everyone, it's another bright and sunny day in glorious Stockholm, or rather, I wish it were. To distract from the grim grey reality of this cursed latitude let's delve into the second Religious overhaul present in Mandate of Heaven: Shintoism.

One month ago we got a Dev Diary covering changes to the Governance of Japan. As many of you I'm sure are aware, we model Japan with the strong but mechanically lacking Shinto religion. Shinto belongs in the Eastern religion group and are eligible to compete for the Celestial Throne and as part of Mandate of Heaven, Shinto nations will also have their own Isolationism mechanic.

eu4_154.jpg


Shinto nations will have an Isolationism level, 5 stages from Open Doors to Closed Doors each giving their own national effect. Japan starts in 1444 under the Ashikaga Shogunate before their Sakoku period of Isolation and as such is at an "adaptive" level. Periodically, this Isolationism level will be challenged by Incidents. Up to 8 of these Incidents can trigger throughout a campaign, depending on the situation in and around Japan.

eu4_153.jpg


Each incident can fire once per campaign and are spaced out by at least 30 years. They will spawn events giving choices on the issues they present in the vein of accepting new ideas, goods and people in Japan. Depending on how you react to these choices, your Isolationism level may draw closer towards open doors or closing off from the world as well as a 50-year modifier to your nation at the end of each Incident's event chain. Which path you wish to take is up to you and how you wish to shape your nation.

Isolationism level bonuses:

Open Doors
technology_cost = -0.05
embracement_cost = -0.1​
Adaptive
global_institution_spread = 0.1
development_cost = -0.1​
Selective Integration
idea_cost = -0.1
build_cost = -0.10​
Isolationism
culture_conversion_cost = -0.15
missionaries = 1​
Closed Doors
war_exhaustion = -0.03
stability_cost_modifier = -0.15​


eu4_152.jpg


Each Shinto nation will face these Incidents independently but the mechanic does not exist in a vacuum for each nation. The Shogun will gain a bonus to prestige for each Daimyo who has the same level of Isolationism as they do and conversely, suffer for each who does not. The Shogun has the power to force their subjects closer towards their own Isolationism level but at a great cost to their Liberty Desire.

the 8 Incidents in the game are:

  • Shushi-Gaku Neo-Confucianism
  • Nanban Trade
  • Proliferation of Firearms
  • Spread of Christianity
  • Rising Shogun Authority
  • Ikko Ikki
  • Wokou Pirates
  • Urbanization
Since each have their own triggers, it's not a given you will see all 8 if, for example, you do not get a port for Wokou Pirates or Christianity is wiped clean off the map preventing its spread.

Exciting stuff, but I want to take this opportunity to look at Japan itself too. We have spiced up Japan with map changes, new provinces and many new nation tags in the Islands, as well as re-writing a lot of the old existing events for the Japanese. Additionally, we have given unique National Ideas to all starting 1444 Japanese nations to stand in line with our goal of revitalizing the region. I'd like to extend a thank-you to community members @chatnoir17 and @Grand Historian for their extensive contributions towards these. Suggestions are always appreciated towards the development of our games.

I'll share just a few of these Idea Groups with you who enjoy reading our script files:

Code:
UES_ideas = {  #Uesugi
    start = {
        army_tradition_decay = -0.01
        production_efficiency = 0.1
    }
 
    bonus = {
        infantry_power = 0.1
    }

    trigger = {
        tag = UES
    }
    free = yes
 
    ues_kanto_kanrei = {
        diplomatic_upkeep = 1
    }
 
    ues_yamanouchi_and_ogigayatsu_branches = {
        army_tradition = 0.5
    }

    ues_kamakura_office = {
        reinforce_cost_modifier = -0.25
    }
 
    ues_dragon_of_echigo = {
        land_morale = 0.1
    }

    ues_nokizaru = {
        spy_offence = 0.2
    }
 
    ues_agakita_shu = {
        discipline = 0.05
    }
 
    ues_denkoku_no_ji = {
        idea_cost = -0.1
    }
 

ITO_ideas = { #Ito
    start = {
        spy_offence = 0.2
        global_garrison_growth = 0.25
    }
 
    bonus = {
        global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1
    }

    trigger = {
        tag = ITO
    }
    free = yes
 
    ito_gokenin_family = {
        prestige = 1
    }
    ito_alliance_with_tsuchimochi_clan = {
        free_leader_pool = 1
    }
    ito_land_of_gods_landing = {
        ae_impact = -0.1
    }
    ito_anti_shugo_movement = {
        province_warscore_cost = -0.05
        core_creation = -0.1
    }
    ito_network_of_fourtyeight_fortifications = {
        defensiveness = 0.2
    }
    ito_sympathy_to_christians = {
        tolerance_heathen = 2
    }
    ito_foresty_development = {
        build_cost = -0.1
    }
}

TTI_ideas = { #Tsutsui
    start = {
        defensiveness = 0.2
        land_morale = 0.1
    }
 
    bonus = {
        global_missionary_strength = 0.02
    }

    trigger = {
        tag = TTI
    }
    free = yes
 
    tti_warrior_monk = {
        infantry_power = 0.1
    }
 
    tti_winner_of_eikyo_civil_war = {
        war_exhaustion = -0.01
        prestige_from_land = 0.25
    }
 
    tti_kasuga_shrine = {
        prestige = 1
    }
 
    tti_mountainous_province = {
        hostile_attrition = 1
    }
 
    tti_nara_city = {
        legitimacy = 1
    }
 
    tti_wise_opportunist = {
        ae_impact = -0.1
    }
 
    tti_kofukuji_temple = {
        idea_cost = -0.1
    }
}

Map Changes, new nations and new National Ideas are all free parts of the 1.20 update, while all things Isolation related are paid feature of the upcoming Mandate of Heaven Expansion, which releases for $19.99 on April 6th 2017

That wraps up Japan and Shintoism nicely, and next week we will be talking about an extremely exciting feature which is going to truly make your Diplomats work for their non-existent salaries. See you then!
 
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I have to agree with the Shinto/Isolationist values being really meh. The bonuses are, for the most part, pretty forgettable, and this is made worse that the mechanic for Shinto is, at least from what we've seen so far, barely interactive. So you get the double whammy of a religion whose mechanics are relatively rarely used, and whose bonuses are also pretty bad for the most part. Barring any other changes to Shinto we don't know about yet the changes, while nice, are still rather underwhelming (especially compared to the amazing Confucianism changes that allow you to accept entire religious groups). My thoughts and suggestions:

  • Closed Doors: -0.03 War Exhaustion, -15% stability Cost

Is, bar none, the best idea out of the bunch. - war exhaustion is a relatively rare buff and it can be very nice, especially when you are chaining wars. -stab cost is pretty meh, but it's a nice meaty discount so it's not too bad, especially since it's partnered with the WE buff. It could do with a minor buff, but as it stands it's pretty nice so I can live with it.

Suggestion: Add a ~10% buff to national tax income. Also, I would highly recommend increasing the WE buff to -0.05 to be more along the lines of the Innovative ideas buff.

Rationalization: Closed door nations are more likely to rely on tax income than trade income because closed doors specifically means you are keeping out outsiders, especially the traders who bring with them dangerous, destabilizing ideas.

  • Isolationism: -10% Stability Cost

Is really meh. It's basically a free version of the artist adviser, which is already one of the generally worthless advisers (except under pretty specific circumstances). In short, it's a pretty worthless thing to aim for over a buff you'll only rarely use actually get to benefit from sizably. Even worse, there is no reason to ever stay on this option. The option above has this with a 50% buff to bring it down to -15% stab. So this is a rather useless (in the long term) mid-point that no sane person would ever choose to make their primary choice.

Suggestions: Add +2% Missionary strength, +1 Missionary (because East Asia in general has too few ideas that give extra missionaries and since Shintoism is practically unique to Japan, Japan is gonna need help spreading the faith), and - Culture Conversion cost.

Rationalization: Isolationist countries should seek to spread their own culture and religion within their borders to ensure homogeneity. So making it easier for an isolationist Japan to convert non-believers and foreign cultures makes a lot of sense.

  • Selective Integration: -10% Ideas Cost

It's okay, but really bland. So...I guess? It's definitely, without question, the second best option available of the bunch. But that says more about how lacking the ideas are rather than the actual strength of this option. It'd be nice if had bonuses besides just the -10% idea cost.

Suggestion: Add -1/-2 Unrest, +2 promoted cultures, -5 years of separatism

Rationalization: Nations that selectively integrate would seek to strike harmony. They would have more cultures being accepted and would try to ameliorate tensions for those cultures that aren't accepted.

  • Adaptive: +10% Institution Spread

Is really, really lackluster. I shouldn't even have to state why. There is no reason to ever stay on this option instead of just going straight to Open Doors. Not only is the bonus pretty trash, but the next option down is literally twice the bonus with cheaper embracement costs. It is objectively better than this, so there is no reason why any halfway sane person would ever want to pick this over that. And that's not touching on the big problem with IS which we'll talk about below.

Suggestion: Add -10% dev cost reduction, -10% building cost reduction, +1 promoted culture, +1 diplomatic relations

Rationalization: Adaptive nations are...adaptive. They are flexible and focus on strong power bases

  • Open Doors: +20% Institution Spread, -10% embracement Cost

This is the third best option, but still not great. Now you might be saying: Hey, IS is not great but it's also not terrible. And IC reduction is pretty dank, right? Problem is that Japan is a rather isolated nation and it's primary neighbors (i.e. Ming, Korea, and the Jurchen) will hate it and are likely to be it's rivals. Moreover, they are also Japan's primary path of expansion. Soooo, it's a "nice" bonus, but it's one that Japan isn't going to enjoy using very much.

Now, let me tell you why it's a "nice" bonus" instead of a nice on: it suffers from a more extreme version of the stab hit problem. There are a whole 8 institutions. Which means that this central religious mechanic is only going to be useful about 8 times, and is otherwise pretty useless. This is a big problem. This is made even worse by Japan being in Asia, where the majority of Institutions are relatively unlikely to spread naturally: in other words, Japan

Suggestion: Add +1 diplomat, +1 merchant, +10% improved relations, and +10% trade efficiency

Rationalization: Open door nations would be more active in international diplomacy and trade. They would have a stronger, more capable diplomatic corps and more active traders abroad

Ideally, all five options should meet the requirement that they are generally good long-term options (perhaps specialized, yes, but still useful). We should be able to think of them as practically static options that are all roughly equally worthwhile (with some, perhaps, being more specialized than others). What this means is that these options should all be pretty damn strong. Unlike Fetishism/Hindu/Protestantism where we have a lot of mid-tier ideas but a wide variety of them to choose from as we wish (under some restrictions), we should have some very strong ideas that we think of as practically being static (since players should ideally be aiming for one of the five levels and stay there).

Further, they should ideally help Japan compete somewhat with Ming as it did historically where unified Japan could actually be a threat and a pain to a still relatively stable Ming as it was during the Imjin War.

Of what we have now only one of these options meets this rather well, and two are pretty meh given that they are central religious mechanics. The other two are absolute trash that no sane person would ever actively aim towards.
 
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Yes, but Christian faiths can actually convert provinces...

This is probably one of the easier non-Ming routes to going Christian after Mandate too.
Unless the 50 year modifiers are seriously amazing (like Elan level) it does seem pretty bad for singleplayer.

Of what we have now only one of these options meets this rather well, and two are pretty meh given that they are central religious mechanics. The other two are absolute trash that no sane person would ever actively aim towards.
Christian / Muslim laughing at you with their DotF mechanic.

I don't actually mind variances in religion strength but it should't be such a gigantic chasm that every game you see people wrecking their country to force convert to another. And this is looking bad enough that I would consider Sunni-switch / Confucian-switch (and ofc Catholic) and very viable.

That said, haven't seen the 50 year modifiers for each incident, it could salvage the religion strength.
 
I feel like this would make far more sense as a mechanic tied to the Japanese government than to Shintoism. The opening or closing of borders makes very little sense in the context of a religion
 
I'm surprised that with all the new tags Paradox didn't decide to Balkanize the Japanese culture. Would make it sense? Of course not. But neither does the other splitting of cultures Paradox decided to do :D
 
At the end of the chains you get a modifier for 50 years dependent on your choices as well.

For both the Ikko Ikki and the Christianity incident the extreme versions of the end will not see your state religion officially changing (as that would remove the incidents and japanese mechanics), it is just seen as you giving this religon a favored status above the others.
If you do eventually form Japan however you will then be able to make Christianity or Buddhism the official religion if you so choose (and the factions you previously backed will be disappointed in you if you don't).
What happens to Isolationism if I convert away from Shinto, then convert back?
 
Dudes... 2 DLC's on the same day; I love your works, but that's a lot...
 
Honestly, a "Purity" mechanic would be more fitting for Shinto, though it'd need something to distinguish it from the Harmony of Confucians.

'Honor' would make much more sense than 'Purity', especially as no one was really considered with the 'Purity' of Shintoism until the Kokugaku movement of the 1700s, and even then it didn't actually take off until the Bakumatsu. I think a particularly good point for it would be the observation of the second Mission Superior to Japan (Cosme de Torres) that "They [the Japanese] regard honor as their principal god.".
 
I like the new japanese skins.
Like the 10 morale is still there.
Love that all 1444 Daimyos have their own NI'S


Very Sad panda about discipline nerf for JPN tag.
New japan and individual daimyo ideas must be pretty buffed to justify it.


Would love a formable ODA tag for people who want the OP +10 discipline/15 ICA.
I would have no problem crawling through glass and hell to earn it.
 
I am really happy to have participated the development of this DLC :)
 
LOL $20 roflcopter

Hopefully there are more features not yet announced that are coming in the few weeks before release
 
Hm....I wonder....

Say for example, you're playing France and you take over Japan (and the rest of the world while we are at it), and the French Empress (that's you) becomes fascinated by Shintoism and adopts it as the religion of the Global French Empire, how does Isolationism work then? Or how does that affect the entire empire?

Can a non-Japanese empire adopt Shintoism to begin with?
 
This seems like one of the biggest DLCs EU4 has received, I'm a little surprised to see some posters complain about the price point. Maybe some players simply have no interest in ever playing a game in Asia.

Seems like Shinto is something you aim for full open, full closed, or the idea cost one in the middle. I wonder then, if there is an option for each incident that maintains your current level of openness.

Other thought is that full open is potentially quite good early but only if some way of actually getting the early institutions to spawn in the first place exists. Full closed looks really strong just based on how useful -WE is and how rare it is. OTOH maybe I overvalue it, -0.03 is equivalent to hitting the button every 67 months. -10% idea cost saves you 60 points every time you buy an idea.
 
Maybe some players simply have no interest in ever playing a game in Asia.

You can tell immediately who these players are by the kind of comments they make on expansions.

* Paradox focuses on not-Europe

OMG PARADOX why you abandon Europe why expansion so expensive no features no buy paradox dead
 
  • Closed Doors: -0.03 War Exhaustion, -15% stability Cost
  • Isolationism: -10% Stability Cost
  • Selective Integration: -10% Ideas Cost
  • Adaptive: +10% Institution Spread
  • Open Doors: +20% Institution Spread, -10% embracement Cost
so it will be the best to go extreme close door or open door, or totally in the middle
 
My interpretation of the Isolationism spectrum is that it's intended to be more similar to Islam's piety (plus Buddhism's karma, in a sense?) where the pre-endpoint positions are intended to be taken as less emphatic/effective versions of the endpoints, rather than having their own finely-articulated strengths demonstrating the consequence of their particular brand of separation. Isolated isn't "relatively few and tightly-controlled interactions," it really is just either "we've almost got everything boarded up" or "we're trying to get the windows open," depending on the way the player's picking at the moment.

(Which I at least found relatively intelligible, albeit paul a's suggestion for variegation does sound a bit more interesting. Albeit they might add up to being just a little bit stuffed, given that looks like an average of 5 or 6 boni per stage? Though come to think of it, the Abrahamic religions match that very handily with their features and DotF, Buddhism has sects+balanced karma, Hindu has heathen tolerance and patrons... hmm. Huh! Not sure I agree with myself on that now. :confused: )
 
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I don't suppose the Tennō is among the new tags in Japan? He holds a bit of land around Yamato in the first start date in M+T, as I recall, but obviously I'm not sure if that would hold true in 1444. I hope so, though. It would be nice to be able to pull an early Meiji Restoration.
 
Institution spread is literally the most useless modifier unless it is in very large doses. They ruined Russia's ideas by getting rid of their -10% tech cost and replacing it with that garbage modifier. The idea cost and WE are the obvious choices. It's ironic they didn't nerf France's -10% tech cost, or Bohemias...

And I collect Paradox Apologist™ downvotes so keep em coming =P

$20 is ridiculous. That is equivalent to an AAA title on sale.

Like, I could get Battlefield 1 for that price. Paradox is becoming worse than EA with their DLC and THAT is scary.

Very little has impressed me so far. Golden ages are ALREADY IN THE GAME as Institutions.

The Ming rework is lame at best but any atttention to Asia i'll take at this point. Japan seems better but like I said those bonuses are garbage and the discipline nerf is unneccesary.
 
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Institution spread is literally the most useless modifier unless it is in very large doses. They ruined Russia's ideas by getting rid of their -10% tech cost and replacing it with that garbage modifier. The idea cost and WE are the obvious choices. It's ironic they didn't nerf France's -10% tech cost, or Bohemias...

And I collect Paradox Apologist™ downvotes so keep em coming =P

$20 is ridiculous. That is equivalent to an AAA title on sale.

Like, I could get Battlefield 1 for that price. Paradox is becoming worse than EA with their DLC and THAT is scary.

Very little has impressed me so far. Golden ages are ALREADY IN THE GAME as Institutions.

The Ming rework is lame at best but any atttention to Asia i'll take at this point. Japan seems better but like I said those bonuses are garbage and the discipline nerf is unneccesary.

There plenty of things we disagree on but +institution spread being junk mode isn't one of them. The problem is that the base rate is completely overwhelming compared to modifiers, so even large +spread modifiers shave maybe a year or two in most cases while base rate manipulation can make decades of difference and overwhelm even -spread.

Trading out -10% tech cost for that was a pretty significant nerf considering that, and while I'm oft-annoyed by how much players want Russia babied, I didn't see a need to nerf it after some of the earlier ones.