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CK2 Dev Diary #51: The Roof of the World

Hi folks!

PDXCON 2017 is over and it was fantastic to meet so many of you! I got a lot of interesting suggestions and feedback on our games, including, of course, CK2. So, a special thank you goes out to those of you who were there!

Now then, let’s talk a bit about those ugly gray areas on the map; the wastelands. Aesthetically, I’ve never liked the gray color of wasteland provinces in the non-Terrain map modes, so I took some time to change it so that wasteland is now always shown as Terrain, regardless of map mode (we might add options for this in the settings. Let me know what you think!)

Northern Siberia and the Sahara deserve to be wasteland; it’s difficult to do anything more about that (we’ve already twisted and manipulated the map projection, etc.) However, the Himalayas and the vast Tibetan plateau are a different story… Though mountainous, the region contains many important population centers and religious sites and has a rich history of interaction with China, India and Central Asia. In essence, the only reason it’s a “wasteland” in CK2 is that we haven’t prioritized doing it justice.

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Tibet, 1066. Note that any green Coat of Arms are placeholders.


I’ve never been happy with the way the eastern edge of the map feels like the edge of the world when, in fact, it should be a dynamic hub connecting at least four major civilizations (China, India, the Steppe Nomads and the Islamic world.) Well, the time to do something about that is now! In our working build, we have added the necessary provinces, new cultures (Bodpa, Tangut and Nepalese), new religions (Bön and Khurmazta), and title history for the entire region.

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The Himalayan mountains, 867.

The Bön religion is a pagan faith which functionally has many similarities with the Romuvan and Buddhist religions: It is very hard to convert, has access to Gavelkind, and unlike other pagan faiths it can not be reformed (though this might change in the future.) Instead, it starts off with the ability to designate heirs, just like Buddhists. It has also got a Patron Deity system like that of the Hindus and the “defensive” Pagans.

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Purang, one of the Bön religion's Holy Sites.


In addition, we are looking over the great Muslim conquerors (Sabuktigin, Seljuq and Timur) to make sure they usually rise, toning down the Indian Holy Orders and making them creatable (rather than existing from the start.) We also plan to add or expand on adventurers for more generic conquests into and out of the subcontinent especially.

There is more, but that would be revealing too much too soon. :) Stay tuned for the next dev diary!

EDIT: Todays livestreams are cancelled due to attrition from PDXCON.
 
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So, now when Doomdark made a hint that Tibet is not the only addition for the 2.8, what do you think will be revealed next?

I would say Kanem and I feel quite confident with the guess. I still remember Darkrenown writing on Elvain's Africa dlc-idea thread that he was interested in some of the map changes. I think that Ck2 2.8 Africa may be quite similar to Eu4 Africa. That would be nice.
 
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Good idea! An off-map Chinese emperor character, Chinese tributaries getting established, maybe even Chinese invasions from off-map as well. This sounds like a cool way to have China without actually having China on the map. Allowing Chinese influence to spread across the map, or wipe it out. Chinese religions and Chinese culture characters too if they want to be ambitious.

Heck, what if the Incan Emperor is also like that if you have Sunset invasion active? An off-map Inca character and Incan tributary states that can help you fend off the Aztecs but who also demand tribute?

In the incredibly slight chance they add Incan culture, that and the addition of Tibet would add the possibility of another new achievement- Dalai Llama: As a character of the Incan culture, hold title Empire of Tibet.


[Honestly, it's a good thing I'm not running Paradox, because I would add DLC content solely on whether or not I could create a new achievement derived from a contrived pun. "Crimea River: hold Duchy of Crimea as Germanic pagan (because they can travel rivers)".]
 
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So, now when Doomdark made a hint that Tibet is not the only addition for the 2.8, what do you think will be revealed next?

My guess is for Kanem and I feel quite confident with the guess. I still remember Darkrenown writing on Elvain's Africa dlc-idea thread that he was interested in some of the map changes. I think that Ck2 2.8 Africa may be quite similar to Eu4 Africa.

West Africa could get a lot more space, the same for East Africa - though I think we won't be seeing any map expansion anymore.
 
That's Khitan, not Tibetan, and they are already in the game with those faces.
Where is this from?
Isn't that just a crappy photoshop edit? See the borders in ruler designer, with different CoA colors.

She superposed a picture of a Mongol character wearing the same garb as the Tibetan character in the higher left corner of the picture, showing that, for the time being at least, Tibetan characters will wear the same clothes as Mongols/Khitans and thus probably share the same face pack.
 
I actually think it's kind of weird they won't be adding China in before CK3, if CK3 really will be cutting a lot of content from CK2, like India probably. I mean you'd think they'd want to milk that last bit of money out of CK2 before moving on.
 
I actually think it's kind of weird they won't be adding China in before CK3, if CK3 really will be cutting a lot of content from CK2, like India probably. I mean you'd think they'd want to milk that last bit of money out of CK2 before moving on.

Why should they cut India for CK3? They would most likely add the whole map froms tart so nobody can complain "Adding XY slowed down the game!"...
 
Why should they cut India for CK3? They would most likely add the whole map froms tart so nobody can complain "Adding XY slowed down the game!"...

I honestly expedited them to cut it out solely so they can sell it back to us as dlc...
 
That's not how Paradox does it. EU4 had all Expansion features of EU3 and just cutted the unliked and bad features.

So far. CK3 will be Paradox's first post-DLC model sequel. It's a lot easier to build on top of a game that's only had two or three expansions as opposed to five or six major DLCs and a dozen graphical content packs.
 
I honestly expedited them to cut it out solely so they can sell it back to us as dlc...

My cynical thought is that they will have the full map that they plan on having, since it's less work to just get it done and not try and edit things multiple times later on (like adding West Africa, then East Africa, then India, then China, then SEA, then Japan...) and just flesh out the areas instead of add them physically to the map. Be prepared for unplayable Chinese for 2 years before the DLC that unlocks Celestial Bureaucracy is released!
 
My cynical thought is that they will have the full map that they plan on having, since it's less work to just get it done and not try and edit things multiple times later on (like adding West Africa, then East Africa, then India, then China, then SEA, then Japan...) and just flesh out the areas instead of add them physically to the map. Be prepared for unplayable Chinese for 2 years before the DLC that unlocks Celestial Bureaucracy is released!

I mean, internally speaking there are already mods with all of Eurasia so the map work is essentially 50% complete. Maybe a bit of polish here and there, but adding the map itself shouldn't be a big problem. It already exists.
 
West Africa could get a lot more space, the same for East Africa - though I think we won't be seeing any map expansion anymore.
In fact expanding West Africa into something (more) sensefull* would not require any map expansion. It only needs the provinces to be re-worked, several provinces to be added there (up to 5) and some empty parts of map being filled, like the Lake Chad region, Hausaland and 2 corridors to connect Lake Chad area to Libya and East Africa.
That could in total mean no more than new 15-20 provinces (yet done well and propperly), or, if done with true love, 30-40 provinces or even more. You can compare it here.

* [I mean the way it is done now makes no sense and would actually be better not to be included than looking the way it looks]

So, now when Doomdark made a hint that Tibet is not the only addition for the 2.8, what do you think will be revealed next?

I would say Kanem and I feel quite confident with the guess. I still remember Darkrenown writing on Elvain's Africa dlc-idea thread that he was interested in some of the map changes. I think that Ck2 2.8 Africa may be quite similar to Eu4 Africa. That would be nice.
1) did he really say that? I'm not really sure there is any hint about this.
2) That is nice that you remember, but on the other hand, we are reading this:
Northern Siberia and the Sahara deserve to be wasteland; it’s difficult to do anything more about that (we’ve already twisted and manipulated the map projection, etc.) However, the Himalayas and the vast Tibetan plateau are a different story… Though mountainous, the region contains many important population centers and religious sites and has a rich history of interaction with China, India and Central Asia. In essence, the only reason it’s a “wasteland” in CK2 is that we haven’t prioritized doing it justice.
There we can see that they plan to leave Sahara as it is, whatever it means (will evaluate below), but it can be red that Sahara/Africa is something they don't plan touching. We only see a proof that Tibet has so far been neglected (not prioritized) and that it has changed. Does it read that Africa is the same case? I'm not really optimistic about that (I wish my guess is wrong).

This is definitely not true! The Sahara region has had some of the least attention so far and has plenty of reworking and map filling that can be done. A rework of Mali, Adding more depth to the extremely weak northern African coast which is constantly being invaded by Christians currently, All the extra land south of the Sahara that was inhabited and played major roles in trans Saharan trade, if the map border just reached the coast in western Africa there would be room for plenty of exciting kingdoms and a much better represent the Muslim world during the games timeframe. I really hope something is done to the region before the end of ck2 dlc.

Oh also I wonder how nomads will act will all this newly conquerable land and new path into India. I'm a little worried that crossing the Himalayas will be easier than it should be but I'm not too worried about the AI managing to do it. I still think the cast system being tied into Buddhism is weird. It'll be weird when Tibetans in late start dates will have Indian casts.
Concerning Sahara you are definitely right.
Sahara was indeed inhabited, at least large portions of it had populations and polities which would be great improvement to the game if added.
For instance the North Africa could (should) have more depth - its inhabitable land should go deeper into the Sahara and thre should be tribal polities who could support Maghrebian states and/or give them space to fight back European invasions.
Mali (and the Sahel in general) is another thing - is should be reworked as I mentioned just above

As for the nomads and their expansion into Tibet/Himalayas - the way this DLC seems to be heading seems there could be some reqork of military systems and that could (hopefully) mean that terrain would play bigger role in fighting - I mean also culturaly. That various cultures would have additional bonuses when fightinf in various terrains (that would solve the problem of nomads expanding into Himalayas as well as Europeans steamrolling over the deserts.

I think Sahara here literally mean the Sahara desert. Having a passable or inhabited Sahara makes no sense, which is not the same thing as saying the area couldn't use some map work. Ibn Battuta's Legacy is an excellent mod which does this in a plausible way while leaving the Sahara mostly uninhabited.

And while West Africa in particular is incredibly underdeveloped, I'm not sure expanding the map to the coast would be the best idea. That region is enormous (similar in size to Europe or india) and there's no way the CK2 map projection could do it justice. Simply adding a trans sahara trade route and enough routes across the sahara to make it vaguely dynamic would go a huge way towards justifying the currently lacklustre inclusion of Mali.
Improving West Africa wouldn't require neither changes of projection nor inclusion of West African coast (in fact concerning noticeable civilizations, it would make very little sense to have the jungle areas included).
Mali as it is now is so poorly done that it would have been better not being there at all. It desperatly needs more space to play (more provinces and some more corridors for contacts - into central Africa), which is possible within current projection, as well as several neww fatures so it is little more fun (trade routes, a little love for their religion etc.) - the suggetions for all that have been made repeatedly, so when @Doomdark mentioned suggestions, we can hope, those have been noticed too.

Just like Tibet, the Sahara and its surroundings would deserve some justice. Will they get it? We can only hope.
It could have been transformed into something very interesting and fun place to play. Even the Sahara desert. Please note that the Ibn Battuta's Legacy is minimalistic approach reflecting how it should be with the current mechanics (which ignore the uniqueness of Trans-Saharan, Saharan and generaly desert-nomadic cultures). If they would get some love, Sahara could have been filled almost the way Tibet is.
 
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