The infantry combat does not feel WW2 anymore.

[Vyllis]

There was a problem with manoeuvring prior the last patch, infantry took too much suppression/damage while moving,
it was very badly implemented and limited retreat or manoeuvres. You were forced you to do mechanics exploiting like keeping intentionally your unit under fire until its get pinned down, in order to have the chance, to give them a retreat order.

Now Eugen decided to make infantry less susceptible to getting suppressed/damaged (?) while moving. While it is a very good (and long asked) change.
I have found SD rather acceptable in the infantry combat before, what prevented me usually to move an infantry squad while the other of mine were giving suppression fire was the ugly movement penalty. But overall the feel was very WW2ish.


However, they also decided for x reason to make soldier able to fire battle rifles/rifles while running around.

This is where i can't follow them, while all their realistic/authentic approach talks, this change is silly.
It was not even asked first, then it does just ruin he infantry WW2 feeling.
I do not need to imagine the soldiers running backward or sidewards firing .30 caliber rifles, i just need to look at them doing it in the game for this...

WW2 rifles are not your local M4 Carbine or gangsta UZI, Eugen.
Those WW2 soldiers in Normandy are not Japanese doing Banzai charge firing some random shots from the hip (more realistic than SD, just to know) while running into the enemy lines.

It is as silly as suddenly giving SD tanks the ability to fire on the move because (not asked for) "balance".

Now it is just far from anything i have seen and read about the WW2 fightings, it does look more like Wargame RD infantry.

Je suis vraiment déçu.

I have seen no complain about this yet, so i guess people are okay with this. If yes then, please just do not flame me too much with x or y balance reason, i'll move along anyway.


Apologies about my bad English.

 

[Protosszocker]

I think it was really a step to far. The lower supression was good enough. Letting them fire on the move is just weird, if they give it 1 acc and 30% of the moral effect okay, but atm it just feels like you can push through everything if you have enough inf troops massed there.

Shootin while driving for some allied tanks is okay though in a realistic point of view, some of them had the equpiment to do so (even though most of them never used it)

 

[iamthatiam]

I'm glad you made this post. You definitely aren't alone. I was meaning to make a post myself but never got around to it.

 

[Vyllis]

I think it was really a step to far. The lower supression was good enough. Letting them fire on the move is just weird, if they give it 1 acc and 30% of the moral effect okay, but atm it just feels like you can push through everything if you have enough inf troops massed there.

Shootin while driving for some allied tanks is okay though in a realistic point of view, some of them had the equpiment to do so (even though most of them never used it)

Yes indeed.
Some carbines and specifically SMGs were there for a reason, rifles should not be used for this role.

For balance (as you pointed out), realism and game appeal;
If they want to implement this badly, i think firing some "random shots" from the hip with extremely low accuracy and ROF (like you said) is acceptable.

Also they need to update their animations to this, yet i know i (and you) do not zoom much when playing.
However, watching a replay and seen soldiers running (more like sliding/surfing) sidewards and backward while firing US m1 Garand... well seeing this and how ugly it was made me create this thread.

 

[Patgarret77]

Second this

 

[Protosszocker]

Yes indeed.
Some carbines and specifically SMGs were there for a reason, rifles should not be used for this role.

For balance (as you pointed out), realism and game appeal;
If they want to implement this badly, i think firing some "random shots" from the hip with extremely low accuracy and ROF (like you said) is acceptable.

Also they need to update their animations to this, yet i know i (and you) do not zoom much when playing.
However, watching a replay and seen soldiers running (more like sliding/surfing) sidewards and backward while firing US m1 Garand... well seeing this and how ugly it was made me create this thread.

oh yeah slide effect man slide effects ^^. not that infantry mans were beautiful creatures befor but this is really just ugly. and yeah show me the dud who was able to run with a Kar98 and hit enemies while doing soo. even if he just walked it would be nearly impossible because of the bouncing of this long weapon. Running with it is impossible i would say. giving some shoots to hold the enemy suppressed (like really just this dmg so enemies do not loose suppression level) would be okay. I had this problem before that I suppressed a Mg and I started running and it stopped beeing suppressed and instantly started fireing again. this is the only thing shooting while moving should stop. but the moral dmg should be minimal and the dmg dealt nearly zero or zero. However you should put this in the sugestion thread not in the public one. Suggestion threads are much more likely to be addressed and followed up by EUGEN. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?forums/steel-division-normandy-44-suggestions.976/

 

[JC_von_Preussen]

I'm happy someone thought about making this post. It's definitely not a feature anyone asked for, and it's not one that is going in the right direction. I would rather like it removed too.

 

[Mistral]

I thought about this yesterday and i hade memory of reading something about the US did fire on the move(even tho they of course stod still when they fired). So i looked it up and yes, from the Infantery Handbook from WW2 you can read:

ASSAULT FIRE.--Assault fire is the fire delivered by a unit during its assault on a hostile position. Automatic riflemen and riflemen, with bayonets fixed, all taking full advantage of existing cover such as tanks, boulders, trees, walls, and mounds, advance rapidly toward the enemy and fire as they advance at areas known or believed to be occupied by hostile personnel. Such fire is usually delivered from the standing position and is executed at a rapid rate.

The M1 Garand made it possible for grunts to keep upp rapid fire!

 

[Rojan]

I thought about this yesterday and i hade memory of reading something about the US did fire on the move(even tho they of course stod still when they fired). So i looked it up and yes, from the Infantery Handbook from WW2 you can read:

ASSAULT FIRE.--Assault fire is the fire delivered by a unit during its assault on a hostile position. Automatic riflemen and riflemen, with bayonets fixed, all taking full advantage of existing cover such as tanks, boulders, trees, walls, and mounds, advance rapidly toward the enemy and fire as they advance at areas known or believed to be occupied by hostile personnel. Such fire is usually delivered from the standing position and is executed at a rapid rate.

The M1 Garand made it possible for grunts to keep upp rapid fire!

Incoming flavor change to make it so US rifles are the only ones to fire on the move

 

[fufubear]

Firing on the move could simulate bounding but I would recommend cutting the fire rate in half of every weapon firing.

 

[Stedke]

I cannot agree more.
At first I thought that SD will be my first WW2 'RTS' that I'll enjoy - with APM not winning you a game, with a decent level of historical accuracy.
With this patch the game is going in the opposite direction.
And it's not fun to see some random rifles running down your entire 116th panzer division. Literally running down.

 

[Vyllis]

Firing on the move could simulate bounding but I would recommend cutting the fire rate in half of every weapon firing.

And rework properly the animations.
Or revert it like it was before because no one asked for changing this...

 

[dmdelor]

Yeah, it really did feel kind of like that change came out of the blue.

Personally, I don't want any of it. Forget firing on the move, the fact that you could fix infantry in place by firing on it was a feature, not a bug. Dug in rifle teams and machine guns should be able to stop enemy infantry advances. There's plenty of tools to deal with them, such as smoke, SUP howitzers, off-board artillery, MLRSes, and in sufficiently close quarters simply swarming 10- to 15- point infantry on the target.

IMHO, the second best enhancement Steel Division brings to the Wargame line after the front line is that combat is much slower, so that players have time to assess the situation and move assets around to deal with it before you've taken serious casualties or lost critical ground. A good part of that's the lower lethality of everything, but the fact that when infantry combat broke out everyone had to hunker down and fight in place was another piece of this. Lower infantry mobility means stuff happens slower and that you have more time to assess the situation and take actions like calling in artillery support, versus micro-ing the combat that's already happening. Manic house-hopping infantry combat was no fun in Red Dragon and while Steel Division is still a far cry from that, this is a step towards that which is the wrong direction.

 

[fufubear]

And rework properly the animations.
Or revert it like it was before because no one asked for changing this...

I'm bot asking for the change. I'm only saying that firing on the move with reasonable accuracy technically possible

 

[Guddi]

I think it was really a step to far. The lower supression was good enough. Letting them fire on the move is just weird, if they give it 1 acc and 30% of the moral effect okay, but atm it just feels like you can push through everything if you have enough inf troops massed there.

Shootin while driving for some allied tanks is okay though in a realistic point of view, some of them had the equpiment to do so (even though most of them never used it)

and on the release date u wrote:


I think you really should hold back with promisise in the future. I like the update and so on but i can not stand the hype. Also Madmat told us that a DIvision update is in work still no see of it. Either way oyu have to say we will bring an update in the near future and promoting it like this one just a week before but with less fency names and stuff or you should really let us be part of it, tell us when and where we can expact it, tell us when something gets delayed and maybe a short reason why.

Really love this game and I see forward in the future, hope you and we will get it back on track.


What now ? Step to far or like the update ??? Or giving to early an opinion ???

 

[Nerdfish]

I'm bot asking for the change. I'm only saying that firing on the move with reasonable accuracy technically possible

With what weapon LOL. If it's a flame thrower, "reasonable accuracy" is not setting yourself on fire

 

[IronHat]

I think you guys are blowing the "fire on the move" deal a bit too high.

each individual bolt rifle only deal .051 damage, and you need 1.0 to kill one dude. An "average" infantry squad have 7 rifleman, meaning the rifle element of a squad deal like .357 damage. By comparison a LMG deal 1.7 damage.

(1x garand deal .085 damage)

firing on the move also cut down the base hit chance hit to 16% from 72%.

the bigger problem is probably the weaker suppression that allow infantry to get closer.

 

[Max_Damage]

Infantries dont fire on the move. Troopers quicklly stop then fire and continue moving. So what was your problem i have no idea.

 

[Claremont Waltz]

Infantry firing on the move (even in a limited bounding sense) with their rifles is a good change that allows for more aggressive play.

There's no dead ground for infantry to use to infiltrate near enemy positions while avoiding fire, and windows/firing arcs do not substantially limit enemy infantry and team weapons, so the attacker is already ahistorically disadvantaged. May as well make a small compensation for that.

Also lol at the idea that a single machine gun
caused entire companies to come to a dead stop with no possible forward movement as in the previous patch.

Here's some infantry assaults from Sedan, 1940 that specifically discuss opposed approaches under MG fire:

By way of a diversionary maneuver, the main body of the company now mounted a frontal attack against the Bunker 104, but machine-gun fire forced them to seek cover. In the meantime, wheeling out to the left and exploiting the cover offered by several bomb craters, a sergeant and two enlisted men crept up to the bunker. After reaching the dead angle, the sergeant threw a hand grenade through one gun port. The occupants immediately rushed out into the open and surrendered. Then they stormed Bunker 7 bis, which was directly behind the other one. In the meantime, however, the first casualties were suffered. An enemy antitank gun was firing on the left flank, and, at first, it was impossible to determine its exact position. Finally, it was realized that the rounds had been fired from a barn that stood on a suspicious gray foundation. A dark gun port was spotted in the foundation of what turned out to be Bunker 7 ter, which was also seized quickly. In that way around 1900 the second line of resistance was penetrated, although the soldiers had drifted too far to the right into the combat sector of the 1st Rifle Regiment.

And another:

The attack mounted by the 6th Company of the Großdeutschland was an action straight from the move. In spite of enemy fire that forced the men repeatedly to seek cover, the 2d Battalion had just two hours to cover the last ten kilometers to the Meuse River to arrive at the crossing point on time at 1600.

...

The attack was mounted in a pure infantry fashion, without any heavy weapons’ support.69 The 6th Company’s Stoßtrupp mission was a completely isolated action without any contact with neighboring units. The companies put across first did not wait for the following elements but staged a probing attack, regardless of their exposed flanks. The leader of this assault team had neither contact with his superiors nor was he able to refer to any precise orders. The only guidance was the mission assigned to his battalion: “The 2d Battalion will cross the Meuse River as the lead battalion of the Infantry Regiment Großdeutschland; it will break through the Maginot Line and will seize Hill 247.”

Which they did.

And one more quote because it's funny:

Many officers took the lead and crossed the river in the very first boats with their men. Guderian, the commanding general of that corps, rode to the opposite bank with the first assault boat of the second wave. Waiting for him there he found Balck, the commander of the 1st Rifle Regiment, who said: “Joy riding in canoes on the Meuse is forbidden.”

All of this is from Karl-Franz Heider's Blitzkrieg Legend, which I grabbed because there aren't any other fixed positions during the war more strongly built than those along the Maginot line, all of which got their shit tore up by small units of infantry getting close and letting loose with explosives and - when available - flamethrower used by assault engineers (specialists in bunker cracking).

If those heavily fortified, purpose built and covered bunkers could be cracked open under fire by infantry, an ersatz MG nest is hardly some impossible objective for infantry.

 

[Vyllis]

Firing on the move, ok, firing while running: i am not for it.
Especially when running backward/retreating.

Even Nival's Blitzkrieg did it best than this.