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EU4 - Development Diary - 19th of September 2017

Good day and welcome all to the Tuesday Dev Diary for Europa Universalis IV. Last Week we took a good look at changes to the Islamic Faith mechanics and today we're going to shine the spotlight on two prominent Muslim nations who shaped the Middle East in the 15th Century. That is to say the White sheep and Black Sheep Turkmen of Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu.

For a long time we have modeled these two nations rather haphazardly as Steppe Nomads but now is the time to give them their own special Government type of Tribal Federation complete with their own mechanics centred around Tribal Allegiance.

On its own, the Tribal Federation Government grants:

-5 years of separatism
-10% warscore cost for provinces
+25% cavalry to infantry ratio

The rise and fall of these Federations will ride on how well they are able to win over the tribal warriors of the region who are fickle to the successes and failures of the Federation. By winning battles and humiliating rivals, a Tribal Federation is able to increase their Tribal Allegiance which will in turn grant stronger bonuses for the country. Conversely, losing battles and being humiliated is a fast track to losing their support and bonuses.

federation 01.jpg

Tribal Allegiance itself will grant no bonuses with at zero, but up to +33% manpower recovery and -3 national unrest as it grows. It will degrade over time relative to your development. Additionally, it can be spent to gain immediate assistance With each action costing 30 Allegiance. :
  • Enlist General: Gain General with 40 Tradition
  • Train Horsemanship: Get +15% Cavalry Combat Ability for 10 years.
  • Conscript from Tribes: Start production of 6 Cavalry units in the capital at 25% build time.
The Inland tribes of Arabia also share these mechanics, while across the world, other Tribal Countries are either Tribal Despotisms or Tribal Monarchies, working as before.

National Ideas

The Black Sheep and White Sheep Turkmen have also been given their own unique national ideas

Aq Qoyunlu (starting development: 55)
Traditions:
cavalry_power = 0.2
land_morale = 0.1

Ambition:
land_maintenance_modifier = -0.10

The White Sheep
"The Aq Qoyunlu, or the White Sheep, trace their lineage to Bayandor Khan, the leader of one of the twenty four Oghuz tribes and the grandson of Oghuz Khagan himself. The blood in our veins is that of true warriors and makes us the predestined leaders of all other peoples."

leader_land_shock = 1

Unite the Clans
"For many years it has been to our great detriment that we have been unable to settle the succession disputes of our federation. We must settle the disputes of the sons of the White Sheep and unite as one. After decades of warfare there will be few who can stand before us if we would just work together instead."

yearly_tribal_allegiance = 1
cavalry_cost = -0.2

Turko-Iranian Bureaucracy
"Iran might seem ripe for an army such as ours. It is easy to conquer and keep under foot. However, if we are to extract any form of revenue from our new subjects we will need to rely not only on our military elites. There is no reason that the old administrative families of these lands should not continue to carry out their work. Let us embrace the ancient traditions of Iranian bureaucracy, as long as we make it clear that the military might lies with the armies of the White Sheep."

core_creation = -0.2

Dynastic Apanages
"The tribes in our confederation are held together by the loyalty to our great ruler but there are many conflicts within this disparate group of supporters. If we want to avoid splintering over petty tribal conflicts we should strive to keep all conquered land directly within our ruling family rather than among the chiefs that support us."

global_manpower_modifier = 0.25

Expansive Diplomacy
"Our realm lies at a crossroad between the empires of the Mediterranean and those of Greater Iran and South Asia. In many ways this region is one of few friends and many enemies. If we are to find allies we will have to look far abroad, perhaps even among the Christian realms of the far west."

diplomats = 1

Religious Pragmatism
"These are dangerous times and many look to millenarian sects for answers. We must do what we can to curb religious extremism in our lands while also working together with the more organized dervish sects that many of the Turkoman warriors belong to. By carefully choosing who to ally and who to fight we can build a stronger state, one that will have the allegiance of the Dervishes without the chaos that religious extremism can bring."

stability_cost_modifier = -0.1

Qanun-nama-ye Hasan
"The source of a land’s wealth is its population. The lands under our control have, however, suffered from centuries of warfare. We must protect our urban and rural subjects alike from wanton raids and coercion. Instead we must build and enforce a set of laws to make living and raising wealth in our realm safe and worthwhile. We will grow rich as our subjects prosper."

global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1
Click to expand...

Qara Qoyunlu (Starting Development: 161. Has Bitlis and Kharabakh as vassals)
Traditions:
leader_land_shock = 1
cavalry_power = 0.2

Ambition:
leader_land_fire = 1


The Black Sheep
"We are the confederation of the Black Sheep. Our lineage goes back to the great Oghuz Khans and our warriors have made the world tremble. Once we bowed our heads to the Ilkhans and Timur but we now stand independent and stronger than ever, ready to take on the leadership of all the Turkic clans of Iran, Anatolia and the Caucasus."

global_manpower_modifier = 0.25

Governor of Azerbaijan
"While many of our military campaigns against our Timurid overlords have given us valuable experience perhaps the most important gain was the title of Timurid governor, given by Shah Rukh to Jahan Shah in order to help him pacify our people. What Shah Rukh did not realize is that this allows us to claim the legitimacy of the Timur, who once defeated and conquered all states in the Caucasus. This newfound honor gives us a platform to build a lasting hold over the Caucasus, Azerbaijan and perhaps one day even Persia."

province_warscore_cost = -0.05
core_creation = -0.1

In Honor of Ali
"Regardless of if they consider themselves Sunni or Shia, the great majority of our subjects honor the Imams, the family of Muhammad and even Ali. While this conviction is regarded as a weakness by some legal scholars it is something that unites our people, be they Sufi mystics, regular Sunnis, Alevis or Twelver Shias."

Tolerance of Heretics +3

Dynamic Warfare
"Our region has proven perilous for many invaders. The mountains, deserts, plains and forests of the Caucasus and Iran require quick adaptation to local circumstances and a keen eye for strategic and tactical advantages. Our prolonged warfare against other Turkoman federations and the Timurids have allowed us to perfect a dynamic form of warfare, mixing raids, grand maneuver warfare and pitched battles."

leader_land_manuever = 1

Freedom with Responsibility
"A truly great ruler is one who knows how to delegate. We have subdued a great number of states over a wide and diverse range of climates and landscapes. If our empire is to grow we must learn to empower local petty dynasties that surrender to our rule, allowing them to tax their own people and raise their own armies in our service."


reduced_liberty_desire = 10

Patron of Iranian Culture
"As conquerors of Iran and Iraq we have inherited the cities and palaces of the great empires before us. If we are to survive and thrive in this region we must add our own monuments and architecture to theirs and patronize the Persianate scholars of our subject peoples."

global_unrest = -1

Irrigation and Public Works
"Centuries of warfare, ever since the Mongol invasion, has left the lands of Iran and Mesopotamia devastated. Great irrigation works that once guaranteed the well being of our subjects have been laid to waste and agriculture is held hostage by the whims of the seasons.\nIn the short run we must build up stores of grain so that we can help our people in times of need. In order to secure the future, however, we must restore what was once ruined and rebuild the public works that will allow the Qara Qoyunlu lands to be fertile and productive once more."

global_tax_modifier = 0.1
Click to expand...

National Ideas and the Tribal Federation Government are all free changes with the 1.23 Update, while Tribal Allegiance and the interactions relating to it are paid parts of the upcoming expansion which will be released alongside 1.23.

Another thing which will be of interest to the Sheep Federations and frankly any nation in the neighborhood of the Ottomans is a change we've done for the Turkish behemoth. In 1444, we have removed all foreign Anatolian cores for the Ottomans. Candar, Karaman, Ramazan, Dulkadir and Aq Qoyunlu may breath a collective sign of relief that Osmanoglu's rise to dominance will be more contested than before.

Ottoman Diplomatic view in 1444:

Ottoman.jpg


As a final note for this dev diary I will wrap up the Trade Goods screenshots by completely jumping away from today's focus and show changes made in China, Korea and Japan:

Happy man looks over far east.jpg


That's all folks! Next week we'll stroll A little Eastwards and check out what has changed in Persia.
 
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Grand Historian said:
While the core changes will obviously be part of the free patch, I'll buy the DLC for the Otto nerfs alone.
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This alone is making the dlc worth buying. Unfortunately, it won't make any difference: i would have bought it anyway...
 
This is Ottoman Empire in 1402. 40 years prior to game start. The map at 1444 is due to the loss to the Timurids in 1402. Now, if you don't lose core on provinces that you are forced to release, Ottomans should not lose those cores. Frankly I don't remember.
images
 
Haydar said:
This is Ottoman Empire in 1402. 40 years prior to game start. The map at 1444 is due to the loss to the Timurids in 1402. Now, if you don't lose core on provinces that you are forced to release, Ottomans should not lose those cores. Frankly I don't remember.
images
Click to expand...

Well, cores really should be there.
The more you know.

....having said that, permanent claims/ more missions on all turkish and Greek land by taking city of world desire decision would be a good compromise.
 
Haydar said:
This is Ottoman Empire in 1402. 40 years prior to game start. The map at 1444 is due to the loss to the Timurids in 1402. Now, if you don't lose core on provinces that you are forced to release, Ottomans should not lose those cores. Frankly I don't remember.
images
Click to expand...

They shouldn't but there's a significant crowd of noise-makers around here that won't be happy until the Ottos are nerfed into oblivion
 
DDRJake said:
For a long time we have modeled these two nations rather haphazardly as Steppe Nomads but now is the time to give them their own special Government type of Tribal Federation complete with their own mechanics centred around Tribal Allegiance.
Click to expand...
Makes sense. What estates does the Tribal Federation get? Is it still Nobles, Clergy, and Merchants, or do they get the Tribal estate? Tribes and Merchants would make sense to me. (I get the impression that it was common for such "tribes" to have merchant towns under their protection.)

DDRJake said:
The Inland tribes of Arabia also share these mechanics, while across the world, other Tribal Countries are either Tribal Despotisms or Tribal Monarchies, working as before.
Click to expand...
I think this is a good description of the two Tuareg polities, Air and 1444 "Timbuktu"*, in West Africa. It would also fit the descriptions I've read of the Arab tribal migrants who had taken over the former Kingdom of Makuria in 1444. It's probably appropriate for some of the Berber polities as well.

* One has to be careful when referencing the Timbuktu tag because you guys use it for two completely different polities.
 
brifbates said:
They shouldn't but there's a significant crowd of noise-makers around here that won't be happy until the Ottos are nerfed into oblivion
Click to expand...

Ottomans need a nerf. I get frustrated from their overpipped units too, but I don't think this is the right approach.

I enjoyed this forum and the game due to the historical debates and developers' concern to make things as historical as possible. Lately they act more arbitrary and it started with the change in culture groups.
 
brifbates said:
They shouldn't but there's a significant crowd of noise-makers around here that won't be happy until the Ottos are nerfed into oblivion
Click to expand...

Because all the complaints about everything the Ottomans get lavished with is nothing more than noisemaking by butt-hurt players?

Thank you for your insightful and compassionate contribution to this conversation.
 
Abu Summiyah said:
Yes, there is nation called "Arabia" to form, but in my opinion it's not very good idea (something like this never existed and nobody ever really wanted to create it)
Click to expand...

Historical trivium: not only did people want to create such a thing, but it did actually (briefly) come to exist: The United Arab Republic, 1958-1961.

Granted that's more relevant to HoI than EU. More on-topic, I think the "Arabia" tag is useful for alt-history mods where the Abbasid Caliphate has survived; that sort of thing. I've argued on the Suggestion forum for it to be easier to form. While it's not realistic, it's no worse than Bharat, Hindustan, Malaysia, Roman Empire, etc...
 
Five livestock provinces in Japan? In provinces that are mostly forested mountains anyway? Sorry, but that's vomit-inducing historical inaccuracy. If it's horses, maybe one of those provinces could be "livestock", but if we're talking cattle, none of the provinces makes sense. Don't even get me started on sheep, which were pretty much nonexistent in Japan until the Meiji Restoration and still are outside of Hokkaido.

@Grand Historian , care to elaborate?
 
BritNavFan said:
Historical trivium: not only did people want to create such a thing, but it did actually (briefly) come to exist: The United Arab Republic, 1958-1961.

Granted that's more relevant to HoI than EU. More on-topic, I think the "Arabia" tag is useful for alt-history mods where the Abbasid Caliphate has survived; that sort of thing. I've argued on the Suggestion forum for it to be easier to form. While it's not realistic, it's no worse than Bharat, Hindustan, Malaysia, Roman Empire, etc...
Click to expand...
Yes, exactly... Also I mentioned the post wwII project in earlier posts. All i keep saying is what you said too: maybe its not realistic to form Caliphate, but still far more realistic than already formable nations like ones you mentioned.
 
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brifbates said:
They shouldn't but there's a significant crowd of noise-makers around here that won't be happy until the Ottos are nerfed into oblivion
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they won't stop until the ottomans lost "make constantinople capital" decision with free core and DEV buff to istanbul lol. what a pathetic people.

janisseries and the siege bonus are wild cards :D
 
Another thing is that if Roman Empire is formable then why Great Seljuk Empire is not? Rum will be formable with new 1.23 and they could form Great Seljuk Empire, no?
 
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Roxas15 said:
Finally a reason to play the turkish tribes.

To the caliphate discussion: there was many many so called "non-ecumenical" caliphs. it wasnt that the whole islamic ummah decided who will be the caliph. certain mighty warlords declared themselves caliphs. even parallel to the abbasid caliphate, there was the umayyad caliphs and later the almohad caliphs. it was rather to show that u became a real empire and emperor, rather than being accepted by the ummah as a leader. the question of who was the real caliph is misleading, because its a title even the ottomans as non arabs could easily absorb, if they wanted to. to me its rather a title like the emperor title for catholics. these also were meant to be given by god and could easily be established by a mighty emprie themselves.
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which is exactly why I, for one, think creating a caliphate (the kind that would do justice to the reality) mechanic in game would be a huge undertaking.
I would refrain form equating the title with a catholic one. Whole different background in how these titles came to be used, and understood.
 
Homusubi said:
Five livestock provinces in Japan? In provinces that are mostly forested mountains anyway? Sorry, but that's vomit-inducing historical inaccuracy. If it's horses, maybe one of those provinces could be "livestock", but if we're talking cattle, none of the provinces makes sense. Don't even get me started on sheep, which were pretty much nonexistent in Japan until the Meiji Restoration and still are outside of Hokkaido.

@Grand Historian , care to elaborate?
Click to expand...

I can see livestock for Shinano to represent the Kiso-uma, and similarly I can see livestock in Hyuga and Rikugo to represent the Misaki and Nanbu breeds, respectively, as those three more or less made up the most common breeds of horses used in Japan this time (along with the Noma horses of Iyo, but Iyo's tradegood is best represented for the Beeshi Copper in Niihama, which produced hundreds of thousands of tons of the stuff).

Kozuke... eh, there's a case for it. It's a little known fact that the Hojo actually fielded more cavalry than the Takeda, but as the Takeda's cavalry was actually effective while the Hojo's wasn't... Still, it'd be better changed to something else, as that basically leaves three Livestock provinces and three Fish provinces in close proximity to each other, which doesn't really offer eastern Japan much variety. I would say grain, but then that'd bring up the issue of the six other grain provinces nearby.

As for Kai, while there were local mounts there, I still maintain the province would be better off starting off as Gold to represent the Gold sands mining that would take off only a few decades after gamestart.
 
seriousgigi said:
they won't stop until the ottomans lost "make constantinople capital" decision with free core and DEV buff to istanbul lol. what a pathetic people.
Click to expand...

Can you bring up any serious examples of there being a demand for it, or are you just grandstanding?
 
fksahin said:
It was their land and they lost after the battle of Ankara at 1402.
Click to expand...

Is that what they teach in the Turkish textbooks? Lol, simply not true. The Ottoman's were the most powerful entity in Anatolia but to say they had control over Candar, Karaman, Ramazan, and Dulkadir before 1402 is misguided at best, outright wrong at worst (especially with respect to Karaman). All of these beyliks were either formally independent, or nominally aligned to the Ottomans. The dynasty that led Candar was under Ottoman protection but after 1402, Candar switched allegiance to Timur. Ramazan and Dulkadir were buffer states between the Mamluks and the Ottomans (both of switch existed before 1402). Karaman is where suggesting that land was Ottoman land is outright wrong. Karaman was the Ottoman's main Anatolian rival after the fall of Rum, and what 1402 did for Karaman was not "independence", but opportunity to challenge the Ottomans.

Haydar said:
This is Ottoman Empire in 1402. 40 years prior to game start. The map at 1444 is due to the loss to the Timurids in 1402. Now, if you don't lose core on provinces that you are forced to release, Ottomans should not lose those cores. Frankly I don't remember.
images
Click to expand...

That map is wrong lol. Honestly, Turkish educational materials are up there with PRC and pre-2000 Japanese textbooks when it comes to reliability (that is to say, they're not reliable at all). It's not surprising modern Turkish textbooks suggest the Beyliks were under formal control of the Ottoman's pre-1402, but it's wrong.

This map doesn't show Karaman, and it shows Candar as an integrated part of the Ottoman Empire when it wasn't.

@Trin Tragula should be able to give an informed opinion.
 
Haydar said:
This is Ottoman Empire in 1402. 40 years prior to game start. The map at 1444 is due to the loss to the Timurids in 1402. Now, if you don't lose core on provinces that you are forced to release, Ottomans should not lose those cores. Frankly I don't remember.
images
Click to expand...
I'm not that familiar with the timeline of changes to Ottoman dominions, but if they lost those provinces that are free beyliks in 1444, in 1402, that's 42 years or so.
Then we have to ask how long should those cores be there, or more so, what do the cores represent?
My first assumption was that a core represents the administrative structures put in place by the state to make that province an effective part of the land revenue etc.
How long should these structures, or other arrangements be in place after the province has been lost? 40 years sounds like a lot.
 
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