CK2 Dev Diary #67: Revisiting the Middle East

[Naughtius Maximus]

Paradox doesn't care about Europe anymore. Rather than focusing on crusades they'd rather make content completely irrelevant to Europe like Tibet or India for some odd reason.

Monks and Mystics. Seriously.

Also odd reason? In this era those regions are arguably more important to world history than some backwater area like medieval Europe. No, there's nothing surprising about focusing on more important historical areas in this time period.

 

[Kartas]

So..... Confirmed?

 

[Keizer Harm]

So..... Confirmed?

China confirmed?

 

[elvain]

Nonetheless, I never saw Duchy of France in CK2, not even in mods. Perhaps because it sounds as weirdly as Duchy of Arabia?

The Duchy of the Franks was analogous to a kingdom in CK2 terms. It would replace Kingdom of France, not live under it.



The Romans had a province called Britannia. Do we have the need for a Duchy of Britannia?

There are plenty of local names to use for that area. Using a a foreign reference dead for centuries isn't the optimal thing, that's all.

"Arabia" refers clearly to the bulk of the peninsula, no one thinks of the area around Petra as the major reference - not even the Romans, since Arabia Felix was way wealthier and more economically relevant.

Duchy of Petra is fine actually.

Duchy of Petra makes no sense either, since - in CK2 period - Petra was totally insignificant as political or trade site.

Frankly I don't see why calling that region, which was always just part of Arabia with no further specification (during CK2 era).

The analogies of Britannia etc. don't make sense since in all those cases there were regions of significance which isn't the case of our region in question.
Perhaps the possible name instead of Arabia would be Jawf.

 

[TheDungen]

Duchy of Petra makes no sense either, since Petra was totally insignificant as political or trade site.

Frankly I don't see why calling that region, which was always just part of Arabia with no further specification (during CK2 era).

The analogies of Britannia etc. don't make sense since in all those cases there were regions of significance which isn't the case of our region in question.
Perhaps the possible name instead of Arabia would be Jawf.

Except it has never been called arabia. It was Arabia petraea to the romans yes but there was also two other arabias, arabia deserta (pretty much all uninhabited areas on the pensinsual) and arabia felix (the wealthy lands on the southern side of the peninsula), it's like calling the rehineland germany because it was called germania inferior by the romans. The Arabia in Arabia petrae litterally means the part of arabia where the city of petra is.If there's no significant city in that duchy to name it after in this era then perhaps it shouldn't be a duchy of it's own? Even more so since most of the roman provicne of Arabia Petraea is not in the duchy of arabia Petraea, Arabia Petraea was the sinai, ourter jordan and the city of petra, while the ingame duchy of Arabia has petra along it's northern border while in the roman province of arabia petrae it was on the southern border and most of the lands in the duchy of patra was never part of the roman empire. the romans considered it part of Arabia Deserta which is a area that contained 80% of the entire arabian peninsula.

So either find something of importance in the duchy and use the same of that, or get rid of the duchy.

 

[elvain]

Except it has never been called arabia. It was Arabia petraea to the romans yes but there was also two other arabias, arabia deserta (pretty much all uninhabited areas on the pensinsual) and arabia felix (the wealthy lands on the southern side of the peninsula), it's like calling the rehineland germany because it was called germania inferior by the romans. The Arabia in Arabia petrae litterally means the part of arabia where the city of petra is.If there's no significant city in that duchy to name it after in this era then perhaps it shouldn't be a duchy of it's own? Even more so since most of the roman provicne of Arabia Petraea is not in the duchy of arabia Petraea, Arabia Petraea was the sinai, ourter jordan and the city of petra, while the ingame duchy of Arabia has petra along it's northern border while in the roman province of arabia petrae it was on the southern border and most of the lands in the duchy of patra was never part of the roman empire. the romans considered it part of Arabia Deserta which is a area that contained 80% of the entire arabian peninsula.

So either find something of importance in the duchy and use the same of that, or get rid of the duchy.

Yup, let's remove the duchy, then. If you think it's the best solution, then do it this way. Expand the wasteland

That's all I can say since you, yet again, seem to confuse facts a lot. Whatever..

The devs know about these concerns and will take their decision

 

[Ols]

I still don't think duchy names in the Middle East matter that much, given that virtually all cultures with even the slightest chance of holding the title use dynastic names. The only culture with a credible chance of holding the title that doesn't have them would be the Mongols, and generally only if you start a game with the Ilkhanate active (99% of people do not). Otherwise player intervention is needed to get a different culture there, thus triggering the inaccurate name.

The most important consideration in my mind is giving the title a name that a Crusader would give it, were they to hold the title. Arabia seemed fairly credible to me, otherwise I suspect it'd be the name of some major settlement.

 

[Wixelt]

China confirmed?

China-Life 3 confirmed!

 

[NecroGangster]

The most important consideration in my mind is giving the title a name that a Crusader would give it, were they to hold the title. Arabia seemed fairly credible to me, otherwise I suspect it'd be the name of some major settlement.

Maybe an european crusader kingdom in the area would name itself after Nabatea which was the name of Arabia Petraea before being anexed by the romans. Or maybe Moab if they go with biblical names.

 

[Keizer Harm]

Yup, let's remove the duchy, then. If you think it's the best solution, then do it this way. Expand the wasteland

That's all I can say since you, yet again, seem to confuse facts a lot. Whatever..

The devs know about these concerns and will take their decision

Do you have a response to his "three provinces called Arabia" argument though? I thought that was particularly strong.

 

[elvain]

Do you have a response to his "three provinces called Arabia" argument though? I thought that was particularly strong.

Well you know, it's not 3 provinces. And then I have already replied before his post. So to sum it up again and for the last time:

I suggested Jawf, but from my perspective, Arabia isn't that bad name either. As I said previously, the analogies of European territories, be it Rheinland, Sussex, Kent, Ille de France or whatever else, are foul, since all these European regions had their own appropriate local names, or had some smaller significant region which could be used for a larger territory.

Unlike this region in question. It was chosen to be called Transjordan in the 20th century just because this part of Arabia had no other regional name. If you look at maps of it in the Islamic period, it always bears no name at all. You can only find there the names of various Arab tribes who inhabited the territory. Nomadic tribes, which have migrated... and were changing.
Also I really don't take the argument about how it was called in periods irrelevant to CK2 time period (Arabia Petrae)

So apart from IMHO okay Arabia, or Jawf, it could be called Arabia minor or Little Arabia if the aversion towards Arabia is that big (I really have no sympathy for this - IMHO illogical - aversion, though I have forwarde those concerns to the devs). Neither of those suggestions is worse, or I'd say either of them is still better than calling it Petra after anachronistic place which had no significance in the period, or calling it after any other place, because in the period, there was no real place of significance in this region, since it was home to nomad tribes with only very few and small settlements.

 

[Enriador]

Because the HRE works perfectly. The HRE wasn't decentralised during the largest part of the game. It was more centralised tan France during this era.

Yet, I would love a custom government type for the HRE that locks it into Elective. A decision would be needed to turn it into a Feudal entity.

 

[Keizer Harm]

Ok, so if I have everything clear now:

Elvain: There is no real name for the place. Therefore, the name for the larger place may apply to the one unnamed section of that place.

TheDungen: That is misleading. Either take a somewhat less appropriate name, or have the bordering duchies' territories stretched to include the provinces of this duchy, given that it never had any significance of its own, apparently.

So it just seems to be a preference thing.

 

[elvain]

Ok, so if I have everything clear now:

Elvain: There is no real name for the place. Therefore, the name for the larger place may apply to the one unnamed section of that place.

TheDungen: That is misleading. Either take a somewhat less appropriate name, or have the bordering duchies' territories stretched to include the provinces of this duchy, given that it never had any significance of its own, apparently.

So it just seems to be a preference thing.

Kinda, except the fact that I also suggested to call that region after a desert which covered part of that area (Jawf) - which seem to get lost somewhere.

 

[Al Davoodi]

Would be great if you could like in ck2plus really create roman provinces in vanilla like it was during the roman age when you try to recreate the roman empire

 

[Keizer Harm]

Kinda, except the fact that I also suggested to call that region after a desert which covered part of that area (Jawf) - which seem to get lost somewhere.

Yeah, I was trying to sum it up in a pro- vs anti-Arabia structure for clarity, but you're right.

 

[Enriador]

Ok, so if I have everything clear now:

Elvain: There is no real name for the place. Therefore, the name for the larger place may apply to the one unnamed section of that place.

TheDungen: That is misleading. Either take a somewhat less appropriate name, or have the bordering duchies' territories stretched to include the provinces of this duchy, given that it never had any significance of its own, apparently.

So it just seems to be a preference thing.

Given @elvain 's as always thoughtful commentary, I believe @Keizer Harm nailed it: if that damn duchy has no particular identity at all, instead of applying it the name of the *whole peninsula* we simply explode it up!

All we have to do is to divide its counties with neighboring duchies, and voi a la, the weird duchy is no more!

If that is not feasible for gameplay reasons, we can always use 'Transjordan' - the rarely used, but at least used, name for the region. It was popularized by the British in the 1920s yes, however it also had some (relative) relevance in Medieval times, being called Sharq al ʾUrdun by Arabs, and Trans Iordanen by crusaders and traders - literally meaning "beyond the Jordan (river)".

 

[DC123456789]

Isn't Transjordan (i.e. Oultrejordain) already used for a duchy in k_jerusalem?

 

[Spirintus]

@DC123456789 Yes it is

 

[TheDungen]

Well the provinces could go to that, seeing as how the duchy of Hijaz is already quite large. Problem is ofcourse then that it ends up in k jeusalem, unless all of d_outre_jordan is added to k_arabia.