Flak 88s of the 18. Luftwaffen maybe too powerful?

[xFoXReaper]

When I first saw the setup of the 18. Luftwaffen I thought that the purpose of this division was to support other division in team games with air cover and expendable Infantry. After playing maybe 10 games with it, in different maps and team sizes. This division has clearly an exploit.

The pyramid-shape income, with the 150 point peak in Phase B, makes Allies quit because they get tired of getting bombarded and overrun by 88s. Artillery pieces with 2000 m range, high rate of fire and only 100 points, combined with cheap elite 88s makes it an unstoppable force combined with the Eichenlaub or Panzer Lehr.

Since the 88s can shoot both HE and AP, they are basically moving fortresses because they are hard to stun and have a lot of HP. You might come up with the idea of tossing artillery at it which could somewhat stop the push temporarly until the artillery pin points your position and starts counterbattery firing making you move to another position, resuming the Axis push. If you decide to pull back your artillery where you are out of range of the German artillery, the 18. Luftwaffen would just push their artillery pieces forward leaving you at one point boxed in.

Same outcome if you decide smoking the 88s, temporary solution until the artillery starts counterbattery firing.

If you decide to use planes as countermeasure you will most likely get shot down since they are 2-star flaks. For every game I played, each FlaK unit rendered, roughly, between 300% to 500% effectiveness, since airplanes are very costly.

An option that devs could take will be to leave the Phase A 88s with one-star veterancy so the division is slightly less solid. Another option would be removing some 88s. When I play this division I have no fear of my 88s getting killed since I can deploy one every 1.3 minutes in Phase A and C and 0.8 in Phase B.

I am not sure if the Germans thought that pushing 88s into an open field and oneshotting everything was the key to victory.

DISCLAIMER: I know that when it comes to team games, it all depends about the cohesion of the team. I am just giving my overall judgement of the games I played and the strategy I used. It may or may not work in different scenarios, the DLC is not even a week old so there's still a lot to discover.

 

[Ddraig5400]

Personally I feel there should be longer set up times, just for the intitial shot at least. I see this not only with German 88's but also British 17-pdr's, since they're soft targets they can't get one-shotted all the time like tanks, so I see these at guns strolling through a field, and when they see something they stop dead in their tracks and fire 4 seconds later.

 

[Lomak]

Another problem is that it can fire ground targets and within seconds change to air target....shouldn't there be some serious time span before it can change from ground to air support and/or back

 

[Alex646]

Well, this is a cause only in team games. In 1x1 18. Luft sucks completely. Even team game meetings with this division weren't very annoying (my experience).

 

[xFoXReaper]

Well, this is a cause only in team games. In 1x1 18. Luft sucks completely. Even team game meetings with this division weren't very annoying (my experience).

1 v 1 have a different nature, they rely heavily on cost-effective units, more precisely Infantry and Field Guns, and seldomly in a decent medium or heavy tank. Obviously this unit has no chance in defeating a determined division in 1 v 1 since it completely lacks armor, support units, and has a fragile infantry.

I will post several replays later on showing the different strats you can use that render, in my opinion, the Allies in complete disadvantage.

 

[fufubear]

16th luftwaffe is not fun to play against. It's not because they have super god mode units (although the 88s are annoying). It's that they have the ability to counter your counter to their best unit. I understand that to counter the 88 I should use artillery but why does the 16th luftwaffe have howitzers that outranges everything but the m12 gmc? The second I start firing artillery to stun the 88 I get counter battery by guns I can't hit.

I also find it annoying that the 88 literally beats all allied tanks in open combat. Literally a fully exposed platform made to shoot at planes is beating armored vehicles in what they were designed to do. Only platform that straight up beats the 88 is the jumbo but once you call that to the field someone will send an hs129.

 

[xFoXReaper]

16th luftwaffe is not fun to play against. It's not because they have super god mode units (although the 88s are annoying). It's that they have the ability to counter your counter to their best unit. I understand that to counter the 88 I should use artillery but why does the 16th luftwaffe have howitzers that outranges everything but the m12 gmc? The second I start firing artillery to stun the 88 I get counter battery by guns I can't hit.

I also find it annoying that the 88 literally beats all allied tanks in open combat. Literally a fully exposed platform made to shoot at planes is beating armored vehicles in what they were designed to do. Only platform that straight up beats the 88 is the jumbo but once you call that to the field someone will send an hs129.

I was paying attention at the % hit for vet 3 star 88 and it's around 85 to 90%, I don't see the 88 missing more than one shot per unit. Also I forgot to mention the incredible air force they have, the 1000 kg bombers are just nukes. If you want to annoy your opponent even more you can save some money to rush their artillery at the start of Phase C. One more issue about the artillery is how numerous it is, you can have close 10 Field Guns in under 10 minutes. You only have to turtle in and defend your position once you have your battery ready.

The only unit that might be slightly useful at silencing 88s is the Cromwell Howitzer due its high HE value but it depends on the map, if it's Carpiquet you can forget about getting close to an 88 before getting shot. The only maps the 16th might struggle are urban and forest maps like Bois de Limors or Merderet, but again, you have the artillery wildcard...

 

[Claremont Waltz]

1) you can fire position with any of the long range HE tanks at 1.21km from target and stun it, then move slightly closer for kill

2) any self propelled gun, offmap or rocket arty hard counters this deck. The calliope is particularly dirty

3) allied AA and planes are more than sufficient to fend off the small number of bombers this deck can bring out

4) smoke hard counters this deck. 88s are incredibly vulnerable to Shermans and cromwells at 600m

The one place where it is genuinely OP is 10v10 on 4v4 maps where they can huddle up with other players and create an interlocking field of fire that cannot be defeated quickly enough to allow for hard pushes before Axis heavy tanks are up. The problem there is map size, not division balance. Eugen direly needs to fix that situation by making replacement maps in between sword and 4v4 in size, then closing the 10v10 on 4v4 maps. No other game mode sees so many players rage quit or so many players get shafted by a single bad decision.

 

[xFoXReaper]

1) you can fire position with any of the long range HE tanks at 1.21km from target and stun it, then move slightly closer for kill

2) any self propelled gun, offmap or rocket arty hard counters this deck. The calliope is particularly dirty

3) allied AA and planes are more than sufficient to fend off the small number of bombers this deck can bring out

4) smoke hard counters this deck. 88s are incredibly vulnerable to Shermans and cromwells at 600m

I agree that those are fair counters but options 2) and 3) are assuming you are able to save income to get those units. Because from the start you are going to be battered by artillery and the other players push. This deck purpose is to annoy the Allies as much as possible. I only need 1 tank kill or three field gun kills to render my 88 effective, it's just 130 points and I have 14 88s in the deck.

If I were to assume I break-even in kills and losses just in 88s I fulfilled my role in the game. Between 1100 to 1300 points in the worst case scenario just with one unit.

The Allies have to decide whether to spend money in artillery and planes to silence my 88s while risking counterbattery fire, sacrificing income to replace losses or plan a counterattack somewhere else in the map. You are literally drawing several divisions attention in solely two units: the 88 and the long-range artillery, while the rest of the Axis team can be stacking armor and infantry for a breakthrough.

 

[Windy]

1) you can fire position with any of the long range HE tanks at 1.21km from target and stun it, then move slightly closer for kill

2) any self propelled gun, offmap or rocket arty hard counters this deck. The calliope is particularly dirty

3) allied AA and planes are more than sufficient to fend off the small number of bombers this deck can bring out

4) smoke hard counters this deck. 88s are incredibly vulnerable to Shermans and cromwells at 600m

The one place where it is genuinely OP is 10v10 on 4v4 maps where they can huddle up with other players and create an interlocking field of fire that cannot be defeated quickly enough to allow for hard pushes before Axis heavy tanks are up. The problem there is map size, not division balance. Eugen direly needs to fix that situation by making replacement maps in between sword and 4v4 in size, then closing the 10v10 on 4v4 maps. No other game mode sees so many players rage quit or so many players get shafted by a single bad decision.

Good points and exactly the same strategies I use. Most players complaining about 88s seldom tried smoke or attack ground or combined arms. The 88s have to be stun first, after that go for kills unless it is close range. What I usually observe is allies players try to counter those 88s with bombers and being shot down, or drive their tanks into 1200 range without the help of artillery and lose in long range fight.
It is indeed OP when too many players stack in small maps. But for regular mode, though some decks is harder to counter those 88s, still plenty of way to fight against 88s. And actually, it is quite unnecessary to kill 88s in each engagement. Try to smoke them and eliminate those dishearten troops. The luffland player will be forced to fall back.

 

[Gilmund]

I agree that those are fair counters but options 2) and 3) are assuming you are able to save income to get those units. Because from the start you are going to be battered by artillery and the other players push. This deck purpose is to annoy the Allies as much as possible. I only need 1 tank kill or three field gun kills to render my 88 effective, it's just 130 points and I have 14 88s in the deck.

If I were to assume I break-even in kills and losses just in 88s I fulfilled my role in the game. Between 1100 to 1300 points in the worst case scenario just with one unit.

The Allies have to decide whether to spend money in artillery and planes to silence my 88s while risking counterbattery fire, sacrificing income to replace losses or plan a counterattack somewhere else in the map. You are literally drawing several divisions attention in solely two units: the 88 and the long-range artillery, while the rest of the Axis team can be stacking armor and infantry for a breakthrough.

In 1vs1, a 16th Luftwaffe beginning consists of two 88's, 2 führers, one pice of arty, 2 recon and only 1 infantry. It is not much. If you speak off combined attacks, you've to do the same within the allied side cause you'll always have a hard time in 1vs2. But to say you canno't handle this few units within the start, well...
16th Luftwaffe is only useful and shine supporting open areas with others players protecting it on its sides. In 1vs1 it is useless, in treelines it is useless.
It has the worst infantry tab of all divisions, nothing else but stug 3gs in the armor tab, no real support fire units except in the AA tab. Do you wanna nerf this deck to make it unplayable ?
Learn how to counter it. I've lost games with 16th against players countering me but this needs teamplay, which obiviously lack in many games.

 

[Gilmund]

16th luftwaffe is not fun to play against. It's not because they have super god mode units (although the 88s are annoying). It's that they have the ability to counter your counter to their best unit. I understand that to counter the 88 I should use artillery but why does the 16th luftwaffe have howitzers that outranges everything but the m12 gmc? The second I start firing artillery to stun the 88 I get counter battery by guns I can't hit.

I also find it annoying that the 88 literally beats all allied tanks in open combat. Literally a fully exposed platform made to shoot at planes is beating armored vehicles in what they were designed to do. Only platform that straight up beats the 88 is the jumbo but once you call that to the field someone will send an hs129.

It is not true, 16th artillery is 2600m max. And you have bloody sextons or arty vehicles in phase B to do something about it. And these bloody sextons are able to relocate quickly and live long, which is not the case of 16th luftwaffe ground arty units.
If you're firing at 88's way behind the front line of course your risk to be counter batteried before you get to them.

 

[Claremont Waltz]

I agree that those are fair counters but options 2) and 3) are assuming you are able to save income to get those units. Because from the start you are going to be battered by artillery and the other players push. This deck purpose is to annoy the Allies as much as possible. I only need 1 tank kill or three field gun kills to render my 88 effective, it's just 130 points and I have 14 88s in the deck.

If I were to assume I break-even in kills and losses just in 88s I fulfilled my role in the game. Between 1100 to 1300 points in the worst case scenario just with one unit.

The Allies have to decide whether to spend money in artillery and planes to silence my 88s while risking counterbattery fire, sacrificing income to replace losses or plan a counterattack somewhere else in the map. You are literally drawing several divisions attention in solely two units: the 88 and the long-range artillery, while the rest of the Axis team can be stacking armor and infantry for a breakthrough.

They have 1.6km-2km towed arty with zero vet and low he and aoe, plus a couple longer range pieces. Any allied deck with towed 25lbrs or 105s will rip it apart, let alone SPGs. If you don't clump up your units so tightly that even crap arty can kill them they're pretty ignorable.

 

[fufubear]

It is not true, 16th artillery is 2600m max. And you have bloody sextons or arty vehicles in phase B to do something about it. And these bloody sextons are able to relocate quickly and live long, which is not the case of 16th luftwaffe ground arty units.
If you're firing at 88's way behind the front line of course your risk to be counter batteried before you get to them.

Sextons have a range of 2400 meters so I if they have a firing solution then they are well within range. Sure they wont kill my sexton but they will make sure it never gets accurate fire.

No I'm not firing at 88s behind the lines I'm firing at the 88s advancing on my tanks because it's completely possible for AA guns to push tanks.

 

[Windy]

Artillery is the hard counter of 88s, but don't rely completely on artillery, it is a game require combined arms. When one 88 is pinned down, the infs in the area that rely on fire support of that 88 will be extremely vulnerable (I know there could be multiple 88s cover same area, try smoke to temporally disable them or try to find a spot where is covered by the least 88s) . It provides a small time window for your troops to make a solid push and kill as many infs as you can. Before smoke disappear or the 88 recover, pull back to avoid unnecessary loss or try to jump into a better position to keep pressure on those 88s. Keep engagements under this way and force your opponents to spend points on infs instead of bringing out more 88s.

Be aggressive and play smart. Fight only when those 88s are not in line of sight. Dont sit there and wait for your opponents to build a dense wall with 88s.

Also, try not to rely much on bombers when against 16 lufflands. Planes should be countered by AAs, which is reasonable and it is pointless to complain about that. Even for airborne deck, there are some (limited) long range art.

 

[Gilmund]

Sextons have a range of 2400 meters so I if they have a firing solution then they are well within range. Sure they wont kill my sexton but they will make sure it never gets accurate fire.

No I'm not firing at 88s behind the lines I'm firing at the 88s advancing on my tanks because it's completely possible for AA guns to push tanks.

You mean you're firing at 88's advancing on your tanks with a max range sexton and there is magically some 16th arty unit at the front line along with 88's firing at your sexton ? Cause i don't understand what is the situation you're describing.
You canno't be serious, if you put your sexton way behind and use your range effectively, you'll kill frontline 88's without being threatened by enemy arty way behind the frontline.
Sextons start to be countered by 16th luftwaffe when 5 or 6 arty are all firing at your sextons. Even if this happens, it is a vehicle and you do have the ability to relocate very quickly and start firing again.
Sextons always win the engagement against a single 16th luftwaffe fk288, the fk288 fires at 2600m has 9HE and one area of suppression of 29m with a 76mm cannon when the sexton fires at 2400m, has 11HE and one area of fire of 32m with a 88mm cannon.
The american M7 fires at 2400m but with a 105mm cannon and one area of fire of 38m.
Both the M7 and the sexton may be relocated very quickly and both have armor, which is not the case with the 16th ground arty, which dies very quickly when shells start to fly on them and are very slow on the move.
And there is only one card of two sfh 396 in the 16th luftwaffe deck, coming in phase B. They have 23HE and area of fire of 43m with a 122mm gun but it is not like you may stack them

 

[xFoXReaper]

They have 1.6km-2km towed arty with zero vet and low he and aoe, plus a couple longer range pieces. Any allied deck with towed 25lbrs or 105s will rip it apart, let alone SPGs. If you don't clump up your units so tightly that even crap arty can kill them they're pretty ignorable.

The only 0 vet are the Phase A FK 228, the rest of the FK 228 are Vet 1 and there's the Vet 1 sFH 396 which has higher HE value than any other artillery piece from the Allies except the new M12 GMC but costs a staggering 200 points. If you add a leader to the artillery you have a fearsome artillery battery. With this setup you are making the Allies spend more points than you to get better artillery just to do counterbattery, not to attack or defend a position. The sole fact of the enemy having to counterbattery fire gives time to Armor units and 88s to push.

If you want to make this overkill add the Sk 18 of the Pegasus division and the artillery will be blown to pieces.

 

[Gilmund]

The only 0 vet are the Phase A FK 228, the rest of the FK 228 are Vet 1 and there's the Vet 1 sFH 396 which has higher HE value than any other artillery piece from the Allies except the new M12 GMC but costs a staggering 200 points. If you add a leader to the artillery you have a fearsome artillery battery. With this setup you are making the Allies spend more points than you to get better artillery just to do counterbattery, not to attack or defend a position. The sole fact of the enemy having to counterbattery fire gives time to Armor units and 88s to push.

If you want to make this overkill add the Sk 18 of the Pegasus division and the artillery will be blown to pieces.

There is no valuable armor within 16th luftwaffe and it is not what you bring when you choose this deck. This armor you're speaking about come from elsewhere. Again if you speak about a 2vs1, it is prefectly normal you had a hard time against two german players putting flak + panzers together.
We have to know what you're speaking about cause in regular engagement in 1vs1, 16th luftwaffe is far from op due to all its tab weaknesses. It is difficult in open ground like it is against panzers but not impossible.
You canno't properly call to nerf decks cause you're destroyed by a combined attack of two players.

 

[xFoXReaper]

There is no valuable armor within 16th luftwaffe and it is not what you bring when you choose this deck. This armor you're speaking about come from elsewhere. Again if you speak about a 2vs1, it is prefectly normal you had a hard time against two german players putting flak + panzers together.
We have to know what you're speaking about cause in regular engagement in 1vs1, 16th luftwaffe is far from op due to all its tab weaknesses. It is difficult in open ground like it is against panzers but not impossible.
You canno't properly call to nerf decks cause you're destroyed by a combined attack of two players.

I guess people don't read disclaimers nor the post chain. 1 v 1s are a different nature. I am not calling a nerf, even the title of the thread shows doubt, there's even a questionmark in there... I suggested options not complaints. And no, I am not the one getting battered by this tactic, the very first sentence says otherwise: 'After playing maybe 10 games with it, in different maps and team sizes. This division has clearly an exploit.'

This post is me giving my point of view of what the division can do in different team scenarios and how you can exploit their unit combination.

 

[Gilmund]

The only 0 vet are the Phase A FK 228, the rest of the FK 228 are Vet 1 and there's the Vet 1 sFH 396 which has higher HE value than any other artillery piece from the Allies except the new M12 GMC but costs a staggering 200 points. If you add a leader to the artillery you have a fearsome artillery battery. With this setup you are making the Allies spend more points than you to get better artillery just to do counterbattery, not to attack or defend a position. The sole fact of the enemy having to counterbattery fire gives time to Armor units and 88s to push.

If you want to make this overkill add the Sk 18 of the Pegasus division and the artillery will be blown to pieces.

There a four 0 vet phase A pieces, six 1 vet phase B pieces, and two 0 vet sfh 396 phase b pieces max.
If the 16th luftwaffe player chooses to go early heavy arty and flaks, he has no infantry on the field nor planes.
Each flak costs 130, each arty 100. It is not like you may stack them like candy without having to choose.
I never bring all my six 1 vet arty in phase B, if you choose to do it, you have to bring less 88's on the field.