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EU4 - Development Diary - 26th of September 2017

Good afternoon all. While time's relentless march shows no sign of slowing and we are pulled closer to the bleak white embrace of winter, we can at least take solace that Tuesday has rolled around once again, and we can indulge in another Dev Diary for Europa Universalis IV.

I want to start off talking about the titular changes for the 1.23 Persia Update. As the name and previous diaries have shown, we've given quite the overhaul to the Persia region and I want to take a closer look at what has changed. For a more in-depth analysis of the map changes that have happened, I would recommend checking out the old dev diary @Trin Tragula wrote last month, which I will be plagiarizing borrowing slightly from for today.

political.jpg


It's a tricky time in Persia for the Timurid Empire. Ajam is considered an independent nation and the vassals Tansoxiana, Sistan, Khorasan, Fars and Afghanistan are chafing under the rule of the old and sickly Shah Rukh. So long as he lives, there is a great reduction to the liberty desire of these vassals but when he dies, the Timurid Empire is likely to fall into a long and costly civil war.

We're happy with the changes we have made in the region to model this, and have felt that the key players in the region were deserving of their own National Ideas. Note that some nations will share ideas with others in the area due to their similarities

Ajam: Independent nation, starting development: 93

QOM_ideas = {
Traditions = {
diplomats = 1
production_efficiency = 0.1
}
Ambition = {
diplomatic_upkeep = 1
}


qom_jibal = {
When the Arabs once came to Persia they dubbed our region Jibal, the mountains, as the many mountains of the Zagros and Alborz ranges is what defines it. On the western border of greater Iran the region is the gateway between the states of the Turkic Caucasus and Greater Iran.\nYet Jibal is not all mountains, for in the basins lie a number of Iran’s oldest and greatest cities and between these basins passes and roads connect the urban population of our Empire. As the empires before us, from the ancient Medes to the Timurids, we must fortify passes and patrol the roads as well as we can, as they are the lifeline of our state.

defensiveness = 0.2
}
in_honor_of_ali = {
Regardless of if they consider themselves Sunni or Shia, the great majority of our subjects honor the Imams, the family of Muhammad and even Ali. While this conviction is regarded as a weakness by some legal scholars it is something that unites our people, be they Sufi mystics, regular Sunnis, Alevis or Twelver Shias.

tolerance_heretic = 3
}
qom_legacy_of_the_ilkhans = {
For hundreds of years Iran and the Caucasus have been dominated by Turkic warriors. They have made up the military foundation of a number of states such as those of the Ilkhanate, Seljuks or more recently the Timurids. Ajam sits at the very center of the greater Turko-Persian region, and for this reason it was here that the Ilkhans once constructed their capital at Sultaniyya. Today the Ilkhans are long gone but their monuments and their traditions remain, in Sultaniyya their mausoleum still bear witness to the empire that once was.\nIf we want to dominate this region we must embrace the Ilkhanate ideals of kingship, and win the loyalty of the Turkic warriors that still dwell here.

land_morale = 0.1
}
qom_persian_language_and_court_culture = {
High Persian culture remains a constant through the ages, no matter which conquerors come and go. Iran has fallen many times, but in the end it is Persian language and culture that spread to their homelands. From Anatolia to Samarkand, and even Bengal, it is the tongue of Hafiz and Rumi that will open doors to traders, politicians and scholars.

diplomatic_reputation = 1
envoy_travel_time = -0.25
}
qom_tribes_of_iraq_e_ajam = {
These lands have been dubbed Iraq-e Ajam, or Foreign Iraq, by outsiders and is dominated by Persian citydwellers and Turkic warriors brought by the Mongols, Seljuks and Timurids. On the outskirts of the great settlements, however, a great number of groups of nomads and semi-nomads traverse and populate the region, Arabs, Turkomans, Baluch, Kalaj and Bedouin. Some have been here for centuries, others arrived more recently, all of them have traditionally been left mostly to their own devices. We should make use of these groups in our defences, as none knows the Persian countryside better than they do.

fort_maintenance_modifier = -0.1
global_manpower_modifier = 0.1
}
reform_the_diwan = {
#Same as Timurids
}
qom_shahanshah = {
"To this day the legacy of the Persian Empire lives in the form of the kingly title Shah, used by Persianate rulers everywhere. We must unite the entire Iranian people under our ruler, Shahanshah, the King of Kings."

reduced_liberty_desire = 10
}

Fars: Vassal of Timurids, starting development: 57
FRS_ideas = {
Traditions = {
global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1
idea_cost = -0.1
}
Ambition = {
dip_tech_cost_modifier = -0.1
}
trigger = {
tag = FRS
}
free = yes

frs_land_of_the_persians = {
In many countries Persia and Persians, derived from Fars and Farsis, are the names used to refer to all of Iran. So important has our impact on the culture and economy of this region been. From the foothills of the Zagros mountains to the coasts of the Persian Gulf, the lands of Fars harbors some of the oldest and most famous cities of Iranians and Iranian culture.

tolerance_own = 2
}
frs_center_of_religion_and_philosophy = {
For centuries Fars and Shiraz has been a vibrant center of philosophy, theology and culture, attracting the great thinkers of its age from all over the Persianate and Islamic world. We must not squander this heritage, let us continue to patronize the arts, literature and theology so that we can continue to shine as the brightest jewel in Persia.

adm_tech_cost_modifier = -0.1
}
frs_diplomatic_prudence = {
frs_diplomatic_prudence_desc:0 "Where other regions have been quick to support new rising conquerors, or quick to surrender with armies outside of their walls, Fars has often favored a more careful and balanced approach. The key to survival in a dangerous world is not to surrender as soon as we are threatened, but it is also not to go looking for a fight that we don’t yet know who will win. As new claimants to supremacy in Persia come and go we will carefully consider our options. Our people will be here long after any newcomers are gone, regardless of if they win or lose their petty conflicts."

improve_relation_modifier = 0.2
}
frs_shirazi_wine = {
Legend has it that it was in Persia wine was once discovered. A girl, having lost the favor of king Jamshid, drank the fermented grape juice in order to end her life. Instead she found the secret of wine and in little time it spread from the royal court.\nWine has been produced and consumed in Persia for millennia, but none can compete with those made from the excellent grapes cultivated on the terraced slopes of the Zagros mountains in Fars. The reputation of Shirazi wine has spread far beyond the borders and is greatly in demand even in India and Europe.\nWe must expand our irrigation system and do what we can to increase our wine production, while marketing our highly sought after goods on foreign markets.

production_efficiency = 0.1
}
frs_shirazi_school = {
As a center of learning it is perhaps no wonder that the workshops of Fars have risen to fame for the great output of books and miniature paintings. Famous master painters and bookmakers have always settled in our cities and enjoyed our protection.\nThe Shirazi school can only blossom with lavish support to create more books, however, and that is something we must provide if we are not to be overshadowed by Indian or Azerbaijani bookbinders and painters.

embracement_cost = -0.1
prestige = 0.5
}
frs_integrate_the_qashqai = {
While Fars is home to many sedentary Persians, and great cities and industries, it is also populated by large groups of nomadic tribesmen. The Qashqai and other groups have often been at odds with the city dwellers, leading to expensive conflicts between the two that does not benefit the realm.\nWe must integrate the Qashqai and give them place in our cities while guaranteeing their rights to use land for grazing. In return we ask that our ruler will be consulted for the appointment of new Ilkhans, their traditional leaders.

global_manpower_modifier = 0.15
}
frs_capital_for_an_empire = { #The Zand Ambition
With its close proximity to the gulf trade routes, its great importance to Persian culture and its relative safety from the enemies of our people, Fars is an ideal place from which to rule a Persian state. Let us take inspiration from the great Empires before us and create a capital worthy to this name. We must expand and renovate every part of the capital, building new canals for irrigation, public baths, bazaars, city walls, squares, palaces, mosques, madrassahs and gardens.\nAll who wish should be allowed space to settle here for this will be the greatest capital man has ever seen!

development_cost = -0.1
}
}

Khorasan: Vassal of Timurids, Starting development: 20
KHO_ideas = {
Traditions = {
cavalry_power = 0.15
land_morale = 0.1
}
Ambition = {
technology_cost = -0.05
}
trigger = {
tag = KHO
}
free = yes

kho_land_of_the_rising_sun = {
With large deserts, high mountains and large tribal communities, Khorasan might seem like an inhospitable place. Yet it is here, at the crossroads of Central Asia, Iran and India that many empires have chosen to base their capitals. Under Shah Rukh the region has prospered in relative stability, and the from the markets of Herat to the shrines of Mashhad we have built a reputation as the home of both great scholars, and thriving cities.

diplomatic_reputation = 1
}
kho_rein_in_the_turko_mongol_emirs = {
The majority of our armies are still made up of the tribesmen that Timur brought with him to this region. By organizing these troops in a more centralized manner than his predecessor, Timur strengthened his military power but he also made these Turko-Mongol emirs very powerful men in their own right. Where he was able to command their loyalty through personal gratitude and marriages we need to win their support in more long term ways.

army_tradition = 0.5
}
kho_princely_appanages = {
A realm as diverse and geographically divided as Khorasan can be hard to hold together. Often provincial governors will have to act quickly and with little chance to ask the center for instruction. It is essential that we have governors that we can trust both in terms of loyalty and ability.\nThe Timurid/Genghisid practice of putting the princes of the dynasty in such positions would likely serve us well, every governor will be motivated to do the most of his position if he has hope to inherit the throne himself.

global_manpower_modifier = 0.1
}
kho_dynastic_chronicles = {
Khorasan has a long history as a center of scholarly learning, and our hold over this land is new and untested. Let us fund the great scribes of the age, allowing them to compose the greatest chronicles of our age, firmly establishing our house as the leading dynasty of Eastern Persia.

legitimacy = 1
}
kho_irrigation_network = {
Agriculture comes at great cost in Khorasan, the land is dry and there are no major rivers to speak of. Our Persian administrators are suggesting that if our cities are to reach their full potential we will have to invest in a great number of irrigation works and cannals. With enough water even the rarest fruits can be grown from Herat to Mashhad and we can build gardens to the envy of all of Asia.

global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1
}
kho_great_sheiks_of_khorasan = {
These lands are home to many Sufi shrines, orders and their lineages. The great Sheiks often take an active part in the social and political life in our society, and their influence stretches far from our borders. Even the faraway rulers of India patronizes Khorasani Sheiks of the Chisti or Naqshbandi Sufis, and Great Sultans send letters hoping to lure our wise sages to their courts.

tolerance_own = 2
}
kho_protect_the_caravan_routes = {
Between the Oxus, India and Iran, Khorasan is a region of great importance for long range commerce. The Silk Road passes through, connecting Samarkand with Iran and the Mediterranean, and is joined in Herat, by the Grand Trunk Road from India.\nThis long journey is a perilous and arduous one for many merchants however. By vowing to protect all merchants passing through our lands, and constructing regular caravanserais along the trade routes, we can greatly limit the risks and likely attract even more wealth to our great cities

trade_efficiency = 0.10
}
}

Transoxiana:
Vassal of Timurids, starting development: 127
TRS_ideas = {
Traditions = {
land_morale = 0.1
cavalry_cost = -0.1
}
Ambition = {
idea_cost = -0.1
}
trigger = {
tag = TRS
}
free = yes

trs_mawarannahr = {
Transoxiana, the land beyond the Amu Darya, or Oxus, has been known since the days of the great Iskandar of Macedon as the end of Persian culture. Our lands are where Iran ends and Turan starts, a realm of great cities, but also dominated by Turko-Mongol tribes.\nIn more recent times Transoxiana was the starting point for Timur Lenk's Empire and it remains the base for many of the clans that supported his bid for power. As Timur has shown we could do great things as long as we keep them united.

cavalry_power = 0.2
}
trs_threshold_of_paradise = {
While he was far from the first conqueror to come to Transoxiana, Timur made the region the center of his Empire and he brought treasures, artists, builders and artisans from the entire world to his great capital in Samarkand. We must strive to uphold this legacy, and continue to embellish this foremost jewel among cities. From the courts in Castile to the palaces in Beijing everyone shall covet the gilded city on the Silk Road.

prestige = 1
}
trs_adept_diplomacy = {
Through education and training our rulers acquire the virtues of great kingship, but there is no school that will teach how to survive in the political climate of Transoxiana. Ever since the days of Timur, young princes, uncles and cousins have plotted against one another for the right to rule this region. When one of our princes reach adulthood and manages to take on the reins of power, we can be sure that they are, if nothing else, quite adept at espionage and politics.\nIf our realm is to ever be free of this poisonous atmosphere we must put an end to such infighting, striving to outsmart the lesser scions of the family once and for all.

spy_offence = 0.2
}
trs_turkoman_cannoneers = { #Babur's ambition
While it is going to be a long while from determining any battles in the open lands of Transoxiana, gunpowder promises to change warfare to its very foundation. Turkic cannoneers have already made a name for themselves in India and Iran. The time has come to make sure these talented men of war never leave our lands. Let us put the most skilled gunsmiths to work and create the greatest artillery arm in Central Asia.

artillery_cost = -0.15
}
trs_scientific_patronage = {
Our realm his home to some of the greatest minds of this era. Great thinkers, philosophers, writers, artists and astronomers. If we are to truly benefit from their brilliance, however, we must dare give them the tools to aim higher. Let us build great works and buildings in the name of science. We will provide astronomical observatories, libraries and all patronage aspiring minds might require.\n\n'Religions rise and fall, empires crumble into dust, but the works of science are for all time.

technology_cost = -0.05
}
trs_entrepot_of_the_silk_road = {
While many places benefit from being transit points for the Silk Road, we are are the center of one of its greatest Entrepôts. From east, to west traders know of the reputation of Bukhara and Samarkand, and are willing to cross the deserts of the Tarim Basin and Iran or the great steppes to the north, to be able to sell their wares here, bringing home our silk, paper and whichever exotic goods they can find here to their homelands.\nOur wealth depends on keeping the peace. Without Timur, and Genghis Khan before him, many find this too dangerous to undertake. We must endeavour to protect all traders in our lands and negotiate right of passage for any long distance traders that seek our markets.

global_own_trade_power = 0.25
}
chagatai_literature = {
#Same as Timurids
}
}

Afghanistan: Vassal of Timurids, starting development: 47
Already has National Ideas

Sistan: Vassal of Timurids, starting development: 14
No unique national ideas (as of writing)

Phew, that's quite a lot. Well, This. Is. Persia. so I think we can talk a bit more about changes in the area. In order to get to that I want to look over at the meek and unassuming nation of Ardabil, complete with its one province and 9 development

In the borderlands between the crumbling Timurid Empire and the Qara Qoyunlu, a number of small sheikdoms are nominal vassals of both powers. In practice many of them are independent in all but name. Most of their neighbors will not be shown until next week but the one you can see here, Ardabil, would rise to unprecedented fame. In 1444 the rulers of Ardabil are under the influence of a growing Islamic sect, the Safavid Order. Historically Ardabil is the embryo of the future Persian Empire and the Safavid Dynasty. As such, Ardabil has a new Government form of Feudal Theocracy which it shares with precious few other nations.

Feudal Theocracy:
  • +1 Missionary (for Kingdom and Empire Rank)
  • +1 Missionary Strength
  • +1 Tolerance of True Faith (+2 at Empire Rank)
Feudal Theocracy functions as a Monarchy, but with heavy religious focus. This can be adopted by nations who form Persia. While this is a free change with the 1.23 Persia Update, the accompanying Expansion will allow the use of Government Interactions made available for Feudal Theocracies:

Feudal Theocracy interactions.jpg



Each interaction has its own cost and a 5 year cooldown.

  • 50 ADM - Seize Clerical Holdings: -15% Build Cost for 5 years.
  • 50 DIP - Invite Minorities from Abroad: Gain -20% development cost and +1 random development in your Capital Area.
  • 50 MIL - Sanction Holy War: Grants a claim on all non-allied non-(own)subject bordering provinces which are owned by a nation who is not the Feudal Theocracy’s State Religion,
As a final piece for today's dev diary, I will leave you with two screenshots which have been long requests: Cultural and Religious mapmodes for the whole area we've been working on:

Cultural.jpg


religious.jpg


These can be tricky subject matter to nail down in our setup. As such, if there are what you feel to be mis-representations, I would encourage you to tag myself and @Trin Tragula in a post in the Suggestions forum, with sources to back what you feel should be changed.

Phew, that was quite the diary. Next week let's relax with some Rum to unwind.
 
They kept a lot from their culture too. I mean azerbaijani culture should be in turkic culture group, not iranian. The reason is not only in language.
If I am not mistaken since i was born half Azari, we Azaris donot speak the same Turkish as Anatolian turks, also safavid empire was built by people of this region and they saw themselves closer to Persians than Turks, we celebrate Persian New year and many of Shia holidays. The list is long while Anatolian turks are alot different they are mostly Sunni they don't celebrate same things as us etc. Azaris in general are far closer to Persians than turks. Even though we are Turks.
 
Thanks, missed those :oops:

It should be quite interesting region right now, if only Ottos would not trample all over

There is a lot going on now. The Ottomans are still a juggernaut but miracles do happen ;)

@Trin Tragula

How has Persia affected gameplay in northern India during the test runs

I have actually seen a Timurid (Transoxiana) formed Mughals a few times in hands-off games. Alas I wouldn't say it's going to be a regular occurance even now.
 
Timmy have cores on Tansoxiana, Fars, Ajam, Khorasan, Luristan and most of Afghanistan. That is to say, should they weather the death of Shah Rukh without total annihilation, they stand to be in a strong position.



Nations forming Persia will get the Feudal Theocracy government. Additionally, Ardabil, Oman, Rassid and Mushasha start the game in 1444 with the Government.



The paid features we have talked about thus far, and still have to unveil, will be part of an expansion akin to Mandate of Heaven or Rights of Man. As always, it will be released alongside a free update, in this case the 1.23 Persia Update, containing the free stuff we've shown (map changes, trade goods, events etc)
DDRjake I love you guys thank you for update, but I was woundering will the Persian units get a unit pack? Also can we preorder the dlc or no? Thanks again :)
 
@DDRJake and @Trin Tragula , I've made a thread in regards to my criticism of the cultural map for the new patch:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/issues-with-the-iranian-cultural-map.1046555/

Basically, I argue against the idea that the northern coast of the Persian Gulf was majority Arab, as well as the culture of some of the other specific provinces.

If possible, could you also submit a pic of the culture mapmode of the Iranian culture group, so we can see the cultures of each individual province in the Iranian region?
 
@Trin Tragula

Will the Taurus mountain range be added to southern Anatolia before game release? The Hakkari mountains to the southeast would also be a gameplay boost since it would add a possible strategical defense point between the Persians and the Black and White Sheep tribes.

turkey-map-physical.jpg
 
Smyrna was discussed atl least a dozen of threads during the past three years

Yes, but he said the entire coastline of Asia Minor, not just Smyrna - only the most diehard deniers believe that the entire Asia Minor coastline had a Greek majority by the time Timur left. It also should be remembered that, in some circles, Asia Minor is interchangeable with Anatolia.

And given he posted a mock-thread a few days back on how all non-European cultures should take intrinsic tech penalties - while having a quote from Buddha in his signature - it's rather obvious it's not to be taken seriously.
 
So I understand it feudal theocracies is only a muslim thing? Would have been cool to see something similar for the crusader states. Was that ever considered?
 
Why I am disappointed with this patch?
As I saw that this patch will be about Middle East I was really really looking forward, as I thought that this would mean nore into depth, new provinces and more historical accuracy, translated giving more representation to less numerous population groups,minorities in particular.
I was looking forward seeing Armenians in Kozan/Sis with cores of Cilicia. I was hoping to see some 2 or three Coptic provinces in Egypt.
As Paradox stated they would add only three or more province cultures, my secret expectation was Assyrian culture for Urmia, Mardin and a new Hakkari province (alternatively the Assyrian triangle), plus Nestorian religion for the Assyrian provinces with exception of Mardin and plus Socotra.
I hoped to see Zoroastrians in north Iran ...

Today what I saw I was horrified.
Karabakh definitely should be split into a larger Azeri Shia Karabakh province and an Armenian Coptic Artsakh province.It just hurts to see Armenian all the way to Araxes-Kura confluence.

But what really really disappointed me is eradication OF THE ONE Christian province in the Middle East.I totally agree in the factual accuracy that Sidon is Shia and I appreciate the accuracy by which the Shia were and are shown. However, I hope that the developers remain consistent in this accuracy and will not ignore the 1/5 of the population of the Fertile Crescent who do not follow the teachings of Muhammad
 
Two examples from the very beginning and the very end of the time period - what about the 250 years in between, when no such revolts occurred?

Please tell me exactly which dates or periods you'd like me to provide information for so you can't keep moving the goalposts here.

Anyway, Hain Ahmed Pasha wasn't a Mamluk, he was an Ottoman vizier who revolted because of being passed over for promotion in palace politics and sent to govern Egypt instead. There actually was an old Mamluk who revolted against the Ottomans in 1520, Janbirdi al-Ghazali, but he was in Syria, not Egypt. This is to be expected in the first few years after the Mamluk Sultanate was conquered. The legacy of the old Mamluk system didn't vanish immediately.

In fact, it NEVER vanished at all. As I said: they were the most difficult region to extract anything from because the Mamluks had large control over the area even to the point of still being de facto rulers at times.

But just like the other Ottoman Arab provinces, Egypt was thoroughly Ottomanized over the course of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. Its ruling class saw itself fully as part of the Ottoman world. Ottoman rule in Egypt was not just a continuation of the Mamluk system and it is anachronistic to view the Mamluks of the 17th and 18th centuries as some sort of holdover from the pre-Ottoman period. Ali Bey's goal was to establish himself as governor of Egypt, not to revive the Mamluk Sultanate. Even in the 19th century, when Mehmed Ali launched the revolts that would eventually lead to Egypt's de facto independence from the Ottoman Empire, he did so while imagining himself as an Ottoman subject. His original plan was to enlarge his own power within the empire, not to create an independent Egyptian state.

Did you get this strange impression by reading about the state of Ottoman Egypt in the late 18th century, and projecting that backwards through the whole 250-year period prior?

No, I read cited sources and even provided a nice little wiki link in the very post you just quoted and responded to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt_Eyalet

Which is further backed up by Michael Winter's book Egyptian Society Under Ottoman Rule:

"Although he was an imposing figure, renowned for his public works, Mehmet Pasha did not reverse the trend of the sultan’s weakening holdon the provinces. During the next two centuries the pashas steadily lost power, and became legitimizing agents of the sultan’s authority. They spent all their time in the Citadel, as virtual prisoners in their own palace. More and more the leading emirs (beys) dismissed the governor if his policies did not please them, and informed the authorities in Istanbul. It became customary for one of the leading beys to be appointed a deputy or acting governor (qa’im maqam) by his peers and to carry on the business of government until the arrival of the new pasha. The realistic Ottomans put up with this seemingly odd arrangement, which limited the central government’s objectives in Egypt to:

1. Formal recognition of the sultan’s sovereignty by accepting thegovernor and other Ottoman dignitaries and envoys, proclaiming the sultan’s name in the Friday sermons (khutba) in the mosques,and minting coins bearing his name and title.
2. Sending the annual khazina (or khazna), or remittance.
3. The Egyptian army (officially, the Ottoman army stationed inEgypt) sending upon demand a contingent of soldiers—usually upto 3,000 men—to fight in the campaigns in Asia, Europe or theMediterranean.

As long as these three objectives were achieved, Istanbul was satisfied, no matter how independent the local emirs in Egypt seemed." (pp. 19-20)

and it goes on further to state:

"The seventeenth century saw the advent of the beys, or high-rankingemirs, in Egypt. Formally, there were 24 beys who held some of themost important governmental positions. Holt has shown that these beys,or as he calls them, military grandees, were institutional successors of the Mamluk high command, which survived under Ottoman veneer,although not all of them were Mamluks. The functions performed by the amir al-hajj, the
defterdar (treasurer), the qa’im maqam (acting governor), and the governor of the huge province of Jirja in Upper Egypt, had exact equivalents in the Mamluk Sultanate although under different names. What supports the assumption that the beylicate was, indeed, an institutional continuation or resurrection of Mamluk offices is that it was unique to Egypt. The Egyptian beys are often called sanjaqs (sanajiq) in the sources, but the rank of sanjaq beyi, which was standard in the Empire, was not used in Egypt. And while elsewhere in the Empire, the title was that of a bey, that is an emir in charge of an administrative and territorial unit called
sanjaq, in Egypt the title sanjaq, or bey, never acquired a territorial connotation, nor was it related to the timar system which had not been applied to Egypt at all." (pp. 20).

After all that (and I can provide more if you want), are you really trying to say that Ottoman rule was not just nominal and that there was no continuation of the Mamluk systems? The book directly says:

"What supports the assumption that the beylicate was, indeed, an institutional continuation or resurrection of Mamluk offices is that it was unique to Egypt."
 
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"What supports the assumption that the beylicate was, indeed, an institutional continuation or resurrection of Mamluk offices is that it was unique to Egypt."

Which works fine as an argument if you live in the early 90s when Winter's book was written and Holt was still the premier authority on Ottoman Egypt, but here in 2017 that idea has since been challenged and largely abandoned.

Specifically, it was disproven by Jane Hathaway, in her book The Politics of Households in Ottoman Egypt: The Rise of the Qazdağlıs. (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1997). Holt's notion of the "Beylicate" being a continuation of Mamluk practice was based on the assumption that 18th-century norms were applicable to the 16th and 17th centuries, as well as a bit of unintentional bias on his part due to his own training as an Arabist and not an Ottomanist. However, the Ottomans thoroughly transformed the administration of Egypt and the role of the "Mamluks" in it, and it was only in the late 18th century that Georgian Mamluks again gained a distinct authority within the province, a situation which had no bearing on the functioning of Egypt as an Ottoman province in earlier periods.

You can read the introduction to the aforementioned book for a more detailed look at the argument, but in summary:

Apart from the role of the governor and the seven regiments of Ottoman soldiery stationed in Egypt under the terms of the kanunname, the conventional wisdom regarding the administration of Egypt under the Ottomans is that the Ottomans left much of the old Mamluk regime in place and the Mamluks themselves ultimately ‘returned’ to ‘rule’ Egypt under a thin Ottoman veneer by the early seventeenth century. Such an interpretation is inaccurate. True, Selim I did allow former Mamluk emirs who swore loyalty to him and to Khayrbay to join the Ottoman administration. However, he, followed by Süleyman I, altered the province’s land tenure system and administrative structure, as noted above.

What has perhaps confused historians regarding Egypt is that mamluks – military slaves – had come to be employed in Egypt’s army and administration by the end of the sixteenth century as Ottoman officials and, eventually, provincial grandees began to purchase them from the Caucasus. By the seventeenth century, this had become fairly common practice throughout the Ottoman Empire, so that men from Circassia in what is now southern Russia, Georgia and Abkhazia (the north-western portion of the modern republic of Georgia) served regularly as grand viziers and governors of major provinces. The conquest of the Mamluk sultanate had given the Ottomans their first major exposure to this pool of manpower, and they did not hesitate to exploit it, in the first instance alongside the devshirme, that is, the system of ‘collecting’ Christian boys from among the Ottoman subjects of the Balkans and Anatolia, converting them to Islam, and training them for either palace service or the Janissary corps. (Ottoman chroniclers further confuse the issue by occasionally referring to devshirme recruits as mamluks, even though this is technically incorrect.) Whereas the devshirme fell into disuse in the seventeenth century, mamluks from the Caucasus remained a key source of manpower for the Ottoman Empire until well into the nineteenth century. In parallel fashion, large numbers of female slaves were purchased from the Caucasus for the imperial harem and those of provincial governors and grandees.

This employment of Caucasian mamluks, while it obviously had a precedent in the usages of the Mamluk sultanate, must be regarded as an Ottoman phenomenon. Moreover, it had little or no bearing on the pattern of Ottoman administration in Egypt. True, this administration, like Ottoman administration of other provinces, did draw on certain Mamluk sultanate antecedents in the same way that it drew on Seljuk, Abbasid, Byzantine and Sasanian antecedents. But it did not constitute a revival of the Mamluk sultanate; such an interpretation is clearly anachronistic.

Jane Hathaway, The Arab Lands under Ottoman Rule, 1516-1800. With Contributions by Karl K. Barbir. (Pearson Education Limited, 2008), 51-2.

Anyway, this is getting to be beside the point. Egypt did pose unique challenges to Ottoman rule, but by no means was it constantly revolting. The person I originally responded to said that there were "huge anti-turkish revolts" as if that characterized the whole period, but that's problematic for the reasons mentioned above (the only examples of Egypt revolting are at the very beginning and end of the period, nothing in the 250 years in between), and that it implies that the revolts which did occur were somehow "anti-Turkish" as if these were Arab nationalists and not just opportunistic statesmen.
 
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@Trin Tragula I would like to point out that Gilaki culture and Talysh culture in the Caspian region are left out. These are very unique cultures and not part of Mazani / Mazandarani culture. ANd how are we going to achieve the Shahanshah achievement if there is no longer a Tabaristan?

Additionaly It would be good to add other Iranic culture groups as well like maybe 1 Zaza culture province minor, or Ossetian culture in the Caucasus or Tajik culture in Samarqand, Bukhara and Khujand.

I already made some suggestions in this thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...estions-for-the-upcoming-1-23-update.1041006/

Also why was Persian culture in south Persia replaced by "Khaleeji" / Arab ???
 
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Which works fine as an argument if you live in the early 90s when Winter's book was written and Holt was still the premier authority on Ottoman Egypt, but here in 2017 that idea has since been challenged and largely abandoned.

Specifically, it was disproven by Jane Hathaway, in her book The Politics of Households in Ottoman Egypt: The Rise of the Qazdağlıs. (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1997). Holt's notion of the "Beylicate" being a continuation of Mamluk practice was based on the assumption that 18th-century norms were applicable to the 16th and 17th centuries, as well as a bit of unintentional bias on his part due to his own training as an Arabist and not an Ottomanist. However, the Ottomans thoroughly transformed the administration of Egypt and the role of the "Mamluks" in it, and it was only in the late 18th century that Georgian Mamluks again gained a distinct authority within the province, a situation which had no bearing on the functioning of Egypt as an Ottoman province in earlier periods.

Jane Hathaway, The Arab Lands under Ottoman Rule, 1516-1800. With Contributions by Karl K. Barbir. (Pearson Education Limited, 2008), 51-2.

Nothing you mentioned in that abstract has much of anything to do with what I quoted because it's referring specifically to the practice of using slaves as soldiers and nothing else. That book's analysis is on the household and its implications on the military specifically, not to the administrative structure, autonomy, or anything else Winter's book provided to the argument at hand.

Hathaway literally wrote a praising review of the book I quoted in the International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies in 1994. She even cites it as a source and expands upon Winter's work in the exact same book you quoted, so I have no idea what you're on about here.
 
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