the panzer 4 is well overdue for a buff

[Ddraig5400]

I think the Panzer IV's main issue is that it's simply irrelevant. All Panzer divisions have access Kitties, and while three of them are limited to only one type that only appears in phase C (the 116th has Panther's, the 9th has Tigers and 21st KingTigers), there are simply better options in between. All of these divisions have access to veteran or elite Marder's, which are better than Panzer IV's in tank engagements.

Right now i'm only finding use in Panzer IV's as expendable armour, to send where Armoured support is needed but I don't want to risk losing as large an Investment as a Cat, and even then the Panzer IV is easily outdone: The 21st Panzer has Beute Sherman's, Panzer IV C's and Brummbar's. The 9th Panzer has Panzer I's and II's for quickly suppressing AT guns and infantry. The 116th has it's Panzer III's, with stars and a cheaper price are just better to go with as well. The 12th SS and Lehr can just bring a bunch of sdkfz 250/8's and 250/9's.

Compared to Allied divisions, where Shermans and Cromwells are very much useful and relevant. I think the problem here is less with the actual performance of the Panzer IV (although it could use a price reduction) and more so with the way armoured divisions, and armoured combat as a whole, has been designed. The Panzer IV just simply doesn't have a role to play in the Panzer Divisions, as there are better options and few targets where the Panzer IV is of actual use against.

(And no, dear God, do not give them 1200m range. I hate Stug IV's now (even when i'm the one using them) and I'll enjoy this game a lot less.)

 

[Herr_Robert]

Imo the 1000 / 1200m range gap should be removed. I'd like to see max range for all tanks, long range performance is simulated by accuracy and penetration values, so why use different hard range caps for the same type of guns (or even exactly the same guns)... why should a Pz4 need to close 200m to fire at a hellcat? Obviously it makes no sense from a realistical pov, however i also don't get what it adds gameplay-wise.

I agree completely. It would make sense for autocannons to have shorter range, but it's just silly that some tanks/TDs arbitrarily have a range advantage over others. However, I think giving all tanks/TDs the same range is considered too radical by the devs...

 

[Thonar]

if you really want panzer 4 to get 5 acc:
panzer 4 and stug 3: 5 acc, 12 AP, 1200m range.
cut down availability and/or veterancy for all panzer4, stug 3 and panther card for all axis divisions in the game. (except for 716 because they don't get any of those)

standard all 75 sherman gun to m4a3(75) standard: 5 acc 11 AP, 1000 range.
lower the price of sherman for basically all allied division in the game, except for the 3ad and guard. use the m4a3(75) and sherman V(m4a4) as the gold standard.

panzer 4 needs a buff, but range increase is a drastic one. It's a workable buff but it will require significant rework to both side to make it work. The stug 4 buff was limited to one division and the buff turned it into one of the best axis deck in team game.



130 point is the "safe" buff. If you truly wants to be proactive you need a good long term plan.

The game is dead, maybe, just maybe, also because the two factions are too close to eachother.

A radical change is what people should start to think about, when they want to change something regarding the playercount... as it is now: The game is dead.

 

[1776ZOOMSNIPE1911]

I think giving the panzer 4 1200m range is a bad idea. The Sherman and Panzer 4 were very comparable tanks, the panzer 4 being the more dated tank but having better crews.
Giving the panzer 4 1200m range would put the Sherman in a historically unfair place, and I think it would be imbalanced. Right now, IMO, the panzer is the better tank for tank v tank battles. People are seemingly complaining because the 8 armor leaves it vulnerable to all AT guns. Well, it was realistically. Neither the Sherman nor the Panzer 4 are really meant for taking hits in the first place.
The panzer fits the bill of building a large tank mass, vs a few bigger tanks.

the panzer 4's gun was years ahead of the Sherman's 75mm, nearly double the penetration. (80aphe/95ap vs 140aphe)
Currently the Sherman is better than the pz4 and is also cheaper. The stabilizer on the m4a3 allows for it to win tank engagements when a player of high skill is able to apply it. In order for balance, the pz4 should be priced at 110 and 120 to reflect this. Ap value is not everything.

 

[xXSunSlayerXx]

b26

You mean that plane that cannot even stun a Wirbelwind in one attack run, let alone kill it?

 

[Dianno5741]

1200m range is a bad idea for PIV. Just price buff it. We've been through this on countless threads. It's for balance sake. You can't have your mediums outclassing Shermans. Sherman has a stabilizer, cool story bro. You have JPIVs, pak40s, Maraders, stug IV, panthers, Tigers, Konigstigers, Flak88s. All 1200m all completely capable of wrecking a 1000m Sherman with a fast stabilizer that actually can't even pen half of what's listed.

sherman has 10-11 AP depending on model. PIV has 14 AP? Meaning the chance to own at max for both is similar. 14vs 9-11, 10-11 vs 7-8?

However you shouldn't be using Shermans to duel PIVs. That's a reasonably fair engagement and I'd much rather send my marader out to kill you where you can't fight it.

TL DR, stop forcing a square peg into a round hole and yell for change. It's a Sherman, it's not hard to kill.

 

[KattiValk]

the panzer 4's gun was years ahead of the Sherman's 75mm, nearly double the penetration. (80aphe/95ap vs 140aphe)
Currently the Sherman is better than the pz4 and is also cheaper. The stabilizer on the m4a3 allows for it to win tank engagements when a player of high skill is able to apply it. In order for balance, the pz4 should be priced at 110 and 120 to reflect this. Ap value is not everything.

While you didn't specify which Sherman, I'm assuming you're talking about the M4A3(75).

Again, the tank is worth 150 pts, as can be seen in the Polish div. So unless you think MadMat suddenly developed a burning hatred for them, then you ought to remember that both the Guards and 3AD get a discount on them because they were subpar divisions previously.

However, this same logic can be placed on the Panzer IV. The M4A3(75) suffered from a middle child complex where the cheaper 105 was better at fire support (and elite) and the marginally more expensive 76 was much better at cat killing. The Panzer IV is currently outshone by the Panther and Tiger as far as being a tank is concerned (Jagdpanzer too), the Marders and aforementioned tanks as far as AT is concerned, and SPWs and simply infantry squads with MG42s as far as fire support is concerned. There is simply not much of a place for the Panzer IV without a discount so it's fair to give it one.

 

[roirraw]

I only use P4's when assaulting with halftrack infantry and some leadership as a full unit, something like a 500 point assault group. 2 P4's and BEF P4 + halftracks and other supporting units that you've already had around for a bit. This can be really helpful because your vehicles should be less threat to auto-fire compared to the P4's and your tanks should be able to hold their own for the moments that you can close the distance and engage with the rest of your force. I don't really find the P4's as bad as everyone says, just have to use them in fast assaults as a supporting weapon, not a main line tank. Always buy P4's with vet and keep them in groups of 3. If one takes fire, two can suppress the target. Any less and you lose the chance to pin your attacker and get completely wiped.

Smoke from Wespes or some form of quick response rocket plane can help block sight lines or trouble spots for you to put that 14ap 5 he gun to work.

 

[Herr_Robert]

You mean that plane that cannot even stun a Wirbelwind in one attack run, let alone kill it?

That one. The problem for 12SS in a 1v1 vs 4AD is that it doesn't have any fighters, so it can't actually kill the B26s in A. In other words, the 12SS player has to spend precious resources on ground AA, while the 4AD does not have to do that. On most maps it's impossible for the 12SS to create an effective AA net in A, which means that the B26s can simply support the numerous 4AD infantry where the 12SS does not have AA by stunning the limited 12SS infantry and force surrenders or retreats.

As for the Firefly, it isn't a problem for the 4AD in 1v1 games between decent players. If it's not supported by AA it can easily be stunned by B26s and killed by Hellcats. If it's supported by AA, that means the 12SS player has invested alot of resources into units that can easily be avoided and will be weak elsewhere on his line.

 

[Herr_Robert]

While you didn't specify which Sherman, I'm assuming you're talking about the M4A3(75).

Again, the tank is worth 150 pts, as can be seen in the Polish div. So unless you think MadMat suddenly developed a burning hatred for them, then you ought to remember that both the Guards and 3AD get a discount on them because they were subpar divisions previously.

The Polish have the Sherman V. That's the M4A4. I don't know if it has the same aim time as the M4A3(75)W in the game, but it's not the same tank and has +1 side and rear armor.

 

[Herr_Robert]

1200m range is a bad idea for PIV. Just price buff it. We've been through this on countless threads. It's for balance sake. You can't have your mediums outclassing Shermans. Sherman has a stabilizer, cool story bro. You have JPIVs, pak40s, Maraders, stug IV, panthers, Tigers, Konigstigers, Flak88s. All 1200m all completely capable of wrecking a 1000m Sherman with a fast stabilizer that actually can't even pen half of what's listed.

sherman has 10-11 AP depending on model. PIV has 14 AP? Meaning the chance to own at max for both is similar. 14vs 9-11, 10-11 vs 7-8?

However you shouldn't be using Shermans to duel PIVs. That's a reasonably fair engagement and I'd much rather send my marader out to kill you where you can't fight it.

TL DR, stop forcing a square peg into a round hole and yell for change. It's a Sherman, it's not hard to kill.

I don't think anyone of us actually wants the Panzer IV buffed because we are using it. Quite the opposite. It was one of the most common German tanks at the time, and it's a shame that it's so rarely used in SD. I felt the same way about the Sherman 75s before some of them were given price buffs, and I think it's a shame that some of the Sherman 75s are still overpriced, but at least it's worth getting M4A3s as 3AD and Sherman Vs as Guards now.

It's true that it would be problematic for the game's balance if the Panzer IV was given 1200m range, even if it's done for Shermans and Cromwells as well, but I think that it would be worth it in the end. The Panzer IV price would probably have to be increased to $150-$160 if that change was made, because of its superior accuracy and better availability of veterans. I can see the 2ID suffering from such a change, but they could be given a few cards of M4AX(76)Ws.

 

[Hawk8762]

the panzer 4's gun was years ahead of the Sherman's 75mm, nearly double the penetration. (80aphe/95ap vs 140aphe)
Currently the Sherman is better than the pz4 and is also cheaper. The stabilizer on the m4a3 allows for it to win tank engagements when a player of high skill is able to apply it. In order for balance, the pz4 should be priced at 110 and 120 to reflect this. Ap value is not everything.

How does stabilizer come into play if tanks cannot fire on the move?
And I agree on the german gun being better, but isn't that represented by both higher AP AND higher accuracy?
I think a modest price reduction is reasonable though.

 

[roirraw]

You can test this yourself, just target something with a Sherman that already has a round loaded( isn't reloading ). The aim time is about 1 second or so, not sure the actual time, but it's extremely fast. This goes for Sherman 75s and Sherman 76s; not Fireflies, 105s or any other version. Try the same thing with any other tank and you will see the difference. The Sherman is about 2x as fast firing with a loaded weapon. Knowing this, you can pop out, shoot and back up while reloading.

 

[Hawk8762]

You can test this yourself, just target something with a Sherman that already has a round loaded( isn't reloading ). The aim time is about 1 second or so, not sure the actual time, but it's extremely fast. This goes for Sherman 75s and Sherman 76s; not Fireflies, 105s or any other version. Try the same thing with any other tank and you will see the difference. The Sherman is about 2x as fast firing with a loaded weapon. Knowing this, you can pop out, shoot and back up while reloading.

I think that is a bug with many units
88's being able to snap shot instantly from an air target in one direction to a ground target in another. I do think getting that patched out will relieve of issues

 

[roirraw]

I think that is a bug with many units
88's being able to snap shot instantly from an air target in one direction to a ground target in another. I do think getting that patched out will relieve of issues

It's the design of the Shermans, which had a gyroscopic aiming mechanism. I don't think it should be the same for hand cranked 88 crew. I've brought up this issue with the 88 in a thread earlier in the month.

 

[Hawk8762]

It's the design of the Shermans, which had a gyroscopic aiming mechanism. I don't think it should be the same for hand cranked 88 crew. I've brought up this issue with the 88 in a thread earlier in the month.

Just making sure I understand this right- The stabilizer then allows for Shermans to ready/aim their weapon faster after moving (as implemented in game), correct?
Then that seems reasonable for an advantage for Shermans. Again, in a straight fight my money is on Panzer Iv.

I DO think that a historically accurate and balanced approach would be to give all panzer IV a decent amount of vet for all battlegroups. After all, at this point in the war, weren't most tank crews of the Panzer IV highly experienced? Its why Tigers in game typically come in with high vet.

 

[roirraw]

The aim time of a loaded shot on a Sherman will always be faster, so long as the crew isn't already panicked. I suggested moving after you fire so you don't sit in range of the shot and trade rounds.

 

[Karlburg]

Just making sure I understand this right- The stabilizer then allows for Shermans to ready/aim their weapon faster after moving (as implemented in game), correct?
Then that seems reasonable for an advantage for Shermans. Again, in a straight fight my money is on Panzer Iv.

I DO think that a historically accurate and balanced approach would be to give all panzer IV a decent amount of vet for all battlegroups. After all, at this point in the war, weren't most tank crews of the Panzer IV highly experienced? Its why Tigers in game typically come in with high vet.

Not really. Many German tank crews by this time in the war were quite inexperienced.

 

[Think Tanker]

The most expensive, slowest and insanely garbage pz 4 is useless. Overshadowed by ALL allied armour, as well as ...to represent the HISTORICAL advantage it had over the Sherman's 75mm...

When will this stop? Bloody Hell, the Panzer IV's 75mm already has a tremendous accuracy advantage over the Sherman 75mm, is that not enough? I will not talk on the notion of history since I have already delved into this far more times than I can care to remember.

• C. LET SOME DECKS USED IT IN PHASE A

Sure, do not see any reason as to why not, although I would follow that by saying on select, and really only the underperforming Axis decks, should have this option, it should not become a thing to be expected for all decks, nor even half.

Before the allied experts come and say hurrrr it has AP advantage, it really doesn't when other mediums have more amour to offset it

I think you are missing the important point of that argument, as soon as you have Sherman 75mm and Panzer IVs facing off against Panthers, Tiger IIs, Fireflies, 76mm and the like, armor is essentially irrelevant as both the Sherman and Panzer IV do not have enough armor to provide even a reasonable chance of deflecting a striking enemy shot. What matters far more on this scale is the AP of the unit in these kinds of engagements, an advantage which the Panzer IV undeniably has the advantage in, and thus, makes it far more effective against Phase B & C AFVs than a tank which trades that AP for AV. Now, the primary issue with the Panzer IV is its costliness (something which has seemed to fall upon deaf ears for more than three months), they should go down to a price of ~120-130 CP depending on the sub-variant, so they can become bread-and-butter tanks like the Sherman, and fulfill the role in which they rightfully should.

IMO, the panzer IV is the superior tank, in a tank v tank role compared to Shermans.

I am afraid history might disagree with you on that one, bud.

 

[IronHat]

You can test this yourself, just target something with a Sherman that already has a round loaded( isn't reloading ). The aim time is about 1 second or so, not sure the actual time, but it's extremely fast. This goes for Sherman 75s and Sherman 76s; not Fireflies, 105s or any other version. Try the same thing with any other tank and you will see the difference. The Sherman is about 2x as fast firing with a loaded weapon. Knowing this, you can pop out, shoot and back up while reloading.

It's 3 seconds aim time for the US shermans (and lend lease sherman still using their factory default), compared to 4 seconds on pretty much everything else. It's clearly stated in the extracted game files and if you time the shot yourself.

none of the domestic british gun have the stablizier. This include everything from their ROQF 75mm to the 17 pounder.

The aim time of a loaded shot on a Sherman will always be faster, so long as the crew isn't already panicked. I suggested moving after you fire so you don't sit in range of the shot and trade rounds.

tank gun received +1 acc for each consecutive shot fired on the same target, up to a max of 2. (the ranging shot). your unit isn't going to hit much if you're constantly breaking the line of sight. It's not like the US or british have access to vet 2 acc 7 guns that can consistently land the first shot.