Jagdpanther in B!

[Gilmund]

u know in contrast to a game that died after 3 month..

Game isn't dead fortunately, according to Steam stats i did watch a few weeks ago 1/7 of the players are still playing it. But the number of online players i don't know. The fact is people just buy FPS like Call of Duty and RTS is a niche genre not many are playing (like worldwide sales of video games are telling us). The PC market is nothing but 10% of sales now, just seen that ratio on the sales of Assassins Creed Origins and it amazed me.

Imo making a good game doesn't mean you'll have players, there are better ww2 fps than COD, but everyone wants to play the last arcade thing. But i agree with you unrealism is imo not a good argument to bring to say a jagdpanther can or canno't be in B phase.

 

[Gondie]

Game isn't dead fortunately, according to Steam stats i did watch a few weeks ago 1/7 of the players are still playing it. But the number of online players i don't know. The fact is people just buy FPS like Call of Duty and RTS is a niche genre not many are playing (like worldwide sales of video games are telling us). The PC market is nothing but 10% of sales now, just seen that ratio on the sales of Assassins Creed Origins and it amazed me.

Imo making a good game doesn't mean you'll have players, there are better ww2 fps than COD, but everyone wants to play the last arcade thing. But i agree with you unrealism is imo not a good argument to bring to say a jagdpanther can or canno't be in B phase.

http://steamcharts.com/cmp/231430,572410#All

Both are Rts, both are WW2, both cater to the same target group... you just cant denie one of them is doing way better then the other despite being way way older..
All im saying is, it cant rly hurt if u peak over to a game that ceeps a 5k playerbase sins 2013.. And they are a prime example on how to ceep flavore and still have a rly rly good balance. So why not just put the pride aside and learn from them? Oh i know, casue the devs said so~

 

[Gilmund]

http://steamcharts.com/cmp/231430,572410#All

Both are Rts, both are WW2, both cater to the same target group... you just cant denie one of them is doing way better then the other despite being way way older..
All im saying is, it cant rly hurt if u peak over to a game that ceeps a 5k playerbase sins 2013.. And they are a prime example on how to ceep flavore and still have a rly rly good balance. So why not just put the pride aside and learn from them? Oh i know, casue the devs said so~

Yeah but according to steam stats there are 3,880,456 owners, 2,392,968 players total and 377,786 players in the last two weeks for CoH 2.
http://steamspy.com/app/231430

When SD has 156,908 owners, 148,701 players total and 25,829 players in the last two weeks.
http://steamspy.com/app/572410

SD has indeed identical if not better ratios.

 

[Gondie]

Yeah but according to steam stats there are 3,880,456 owners, 2,392,968 players total and 377,786 players in the last two weeks for CoH 2.
http://steamspy.com/app/231430

When SD has 156,908 owners, 148,701 players total and 25,829 players in the last two weeks.
http://steamspy.com/app/572410

SD has indeed identical if not better ratios.

ofcorse a game from 2013 has worse.. Thaths now 5 years old. Ther is absolutly no suprise that the player rotation is way way higher compared to a game that isnt even a year old now. And well, ther arend rly mutch people bying SD sins ther is no real coverage from big RTS names. And that has a good reason..

 

[Gilmund]

ofcorse a game from 2013 has worse.. Thaths now 5 years old. Ther is absolutly no suprise that the player rotation is way way higher compared to a game that isnt even a year old now. And well, ther arend rly mutch people bying SD sins ther is no real coverage from big RTS names. And that has a good reason..

Just saying it's not the same public and hardly comparable. From what i've seen SD public is made of 25 years + RTS players (which is a rare bunch), with many aged around 30 if not 40-50. I wouldn't say it's a game for oldies but...
Arcade games have always sold more and as they're selling more they may keep more people between the years. Plus CoH 2 got three dlcs in the years (backed up by Sega who bought Relic Entertainement from THQ). I guess they brought new and fresh people.
I was just pointing out SD is probly not doing as bad as people may think.

 

[Dianno5741]

Fussel I’ve never played WG competitively, so no I’m not a 10v10 support Arty deck player, furthermore as you stated, personally attacking me just makes you seem more of a whiner than being objective. Fact, you compared a underpowered Axis deck against a notoriously OP allied deck. That was like comparing guards on release to 12th SS. I’m saying 352nd is similar to Lehr on that they are not great 1v1 but team games with smaller fronts you can use their strengths more (holding a line and Arty spamming with 352nd) to accomplish your goals or allied goals. Why else do they have the most access to 4Km Arty at enough AA to shut down bombers? A 3v3 or 4v4 is a team effort, not just 3-4 simultaneous 1v1s. 17th SS is a more competent 1v1 version of 352nd.

CoH balance, specifically CoH2, is not perfect either. The games aren’t comparable other than they are both WW2 RTS games. One is arcadey like SC2, and SD44 is simulation. CoH2 is flashier and you micro what? Twelve units in the end game? Before artillery or KTs start gibbing units. CoH is conpany/platoon level. SD44 is Btn/Div level. Just very different games. Balancing is also different because of that.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

wuhuuu.. here we go agan, the "Muhhhhh realism~" argument... We are talking about a game, with 2 fixed and fully arbitrarry range settings on vehicles, a compressed uncapped skaling in AV and Pen, operating a 3 stage dice role to determaning the outcome of fierfights.. Pls, tell me more about "Muhh realisem".. this discussion is about gameplay and balance.



Well u use chess to claim that balance only is archived under mirrow balance, i use CoH to show that balance under a unified set of standards dos not mean mirrow balance at all.
And i furter use CoH to show that this system.. setting up a unified standart and then designing all factions around this with differend aproches and units is a system that even after years is holding its playerbase.. u know in contrast to a game that died after 3 month..

And its no argument that the deffs wanted it to be this way if this way isnt working and ending in a dead game after just 3 month. If i say i wanted all the time to run head first into a wall, it dosend ment it wasend a retarded idear to do so and that my head will fucking hurt.

Ironically, the game started dying when the 1v1 elitists started closing down every debate on any other game mode than their preferred option, and argued incessantly about balance which only related to their favoured mode. I very much doubt that few if any of those players who are no longer here cared one scrap about a jagdpanther in phase B for 352nd division.

And that is what this thread is about...go start your own thread if you want to extend it to overall balance and game sledging, because you are off topic, dude.

 

[RoyalColor]

How bout giving Stug IIIs 1200 range instead?

 

[Cherrybomb]

Interresting idea, but it would make the Marder II/III obsolet. Then avaibility and the amount of veterancy stars should also be reworked. I think in the end it would make the whole balance situation just more complicated. +1 to his front armor to make that assault gun more durable is in my opinion the better way.

The problem of the 352. Infanterie-Division is that there is no at-weapon with a range of 1200m in phase a. I think to add a card of a Marder ind phase a and a card of a single Jagdpanther in phase b would fix it best.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

Interresting idea, but it would make the Marder II/III obsolet. Then avaibility and the amount of veterancy stars should also be reworked. I think in the end it would make the whole balance situation just more complicated. +1 to his front armor to make that assault gun more durable is in my opinion the better way.

The problem of the 352. Infanterie-Division is that there is no at-weapon with a range of 1200m in phase a. I think to add a card of a Marder ind phase a and a card of a single Jagdpanther in phase b would fix it best.

Guards armoured has no anti-armour weapon or anti-armoured tank with 1200m range in phase A, either, and it's an armoured division.

In fact, GA's top tank, the Firefly, doesn't arrive until Phase B, but 12SS gets one in Phase A, why aren't you folk arguing about that little balance issue, which has been in-game since day 1?

 

[RoyalColor]

Interresting idea, but it would make the Marder II/III obsolet. Then avaibility and the amount of veterancy stars should also be reworked. I think in the end it would make the whole balance situation just more complicated. +1 to his front armor to make that assault gun more durable is in my opinion the better way.

The problem of the 352. Infanterie-Division is that there is no at-weapon with a range of 1200m in phase a. I think to add a card of a Marder ind phase a and a card of a single Jagdpanther in phase b would fix it best.

I was thinking about same situation they did with StugIVs in 17th, (removed vet, gave 1200 range). It wouldn't make Marders obsolete, coz buffing Stugs means price increase to like 170-180 range, which would make Marders as a budget 1200m solution at 110 points (again, same as 17th)

Problem is that buffing stugs across the board would make 3rd FJ kinda more powerful, so perhaps their stugs could be swapped with F/8s, which would retain 1000m?

Guards armoured has no anti-armour weapon or anti-armoured tank with 1200m range in phase A, either, and it's an armoured division.

Quite a few other divs don't have 1200m at in A and they're fine imo

In fact, GA's top tank, the Firefly, doesn't arrive until Phase B, but 12SS gets one in Phase A, why aren't you folk arguing about that little balance issue, which has been in-game since day 1?

We did, but achieved nothing. As Eugen envisioned 12th SS to be the reflection of standard PzDiv, with steady power growth from A to C, there was a reasonable request to swap Firefly with PzIV or two, but they said nope

IMO their Beute duo, cheap pgrens, 222s, 250/9s and Wirbelwinds in A, makes it stupidly powerful and hard to counter when it is driven by experienced player in team games.

 

[Cherrybomb]

The difference is that you haven't to deal a lot with 1200m he-tanks in phase a with allies. There are just 12. ss and 91. Luftlande-Division with he-tanks in phase a. Nobody plays 91., because of their lack of at units and 12. ss has only one without stars. On the allied side I think all divisions have he-tanks in phase a and often with stars. Guards Armored may has no at guns with 1200m, but instead very good tanks for phase a. Even if you're not able to push forewards, because of 12. ss, you have still the option to hold your ground with tanks in the right position. 352. just has Pak 38 and Pz.Jäger. 39. But what you will do after your at guns are shot down out of their range?
I think the Beute-Firefly isn't a big problem. That thing can do absolutely nothing against paks and is riliant on the support of the Beute-Cromwell. It's a very expansive combination that needs a lot of points. Points which are missing on other areas.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

I was thinking about same situation they did with StugIVs in 17th, (removed vet, gave 1200 range). It wouldn't make Marders obsolete, coz buffing Stugs means price increase to like 170-180 range, which would make Marders as a budget 1200m solution at 110 points (again, same as 17th)

Problem is that buffing stugs across the board would make 3rd FJ kinda more powerful, so perhaps their stugs could be swapped with F/8s, which would retain 1000m?



Quite a few other divs don't have 1200m at in A and they're fine imo



We did, but achieved nothing. As Eugen envisioned 12th SS to be the reflection of standard PzDiv, with steady power growth from A to C, there was a reasonable request to swap Firefly with PzIV or two, but they said nope

IMO their Beute duo, cheap pgrens, 222s, 250/9s and Wirbelwinds in A, makes it stupidly powerful and hard to counter when it is driven by experienced player in team games.

I know you and I did Royal, but were (among others) shouted down by the wehraboos at the time.

My point is that there is some very 'selective' personal interest balance matters being raised...and I would hardly argue that GA is a poor deck, but citing that beute firefly was specific to highlight a poor thematic/balance choice, which I can only attribute to French payback against the British for Waterloo and Mers el Kebir (*boom...tish!)

 

[Herr_Robert]

We did, but achieved nothing. As Eugen envisioned 12th SS to be the reflection of standard PzDiv, with steady power growth from A to C, there was a reasonable request to swap Firefly with PzIV or two, but they said nope

I remember alot of people argued from a 1v1 perspective back then, saying the Firefly isn't worth $200. I agree it's bad design to give 12SS the Firefly in A. Replacing it with a good Panzer IV card would also give it a well-needed buff in 1v1 games, where it's a pretty bad deck.

 

[Gilmund]

I was thinking about same situation they did with StugIVs in 17th, (removed vet, gave 1200 range). It wouldn't make Marders obsolete, coz buffing Stugs means price increase to like 170-180 range, which would make Marders as a budget 1200m solution at 110 points (again, same as 17th)

Problem is that buffing stugs across the board would make 3rd FJ kinda more powerful, so perhaps their stugs could be swapped with F/8s, which would retain 1000m?

I don't think they will swapp units they have introducted for realistic purposes nor i think they will start to give stug III G different ranges depending on the deck, so we screwed. I guess the easy way to fix things is probly to delete the new crit system and come back to old system for at guns/at planes and use the new crit system only for vehicles.
It would probably reduce the need to give 1200m tank in A to every deck which has none.

 

[Gondie]

Guards armoured has no anti-armour weapon or anti-armoured tank with 1200m range in phase A, either, and it's an armoured division.

In fact, GA's top tank, the Firefly, doesn't arrive until Phase B, but 12SS gets one in Phase A, why aren't you folk arguing about that little balance issue, which has been in-game since day 1?

Cause GA isnt facing a overwelming mass of 1.2km He tanks in A. The problem this cames from is the simple fact that u cant use any stationary At guns aganst an oponent that has acess to tanks with 1.2 km range and He rounds. Sins this tanks will simply atack ground u untill ur At gun is paniked. The 12.SS FF has no he shells so he cant push ur At guns away.
Even further, Guards have acess to 1.2km He tanks in A. And exepct of the FF all german 1.2km AT obtions in A are soft, so actually u can push marders and co off with this Cromwells and 105s.

 

[RoyalColor]

I don't think they will swapp units they have introducted for realistic purposes nor i think they would start to give stug III G different ranges depending on the deck, so we screwed. I guess the easy way to fix things is probly to delete the new crit system and come back to old system for at guns/at planes and use the new crit system only for vehicles.
It would probably reduce the need to give 1200m tank in A to every deck which has none.

But I like the new crit system, coz it gives vehicles more survivability and makes more interesting play imo. I agree it introduced certain "problems", but I think it's nothing that can't be ironed out with subtle tweaks.

Also I don't think there is a need to introduce every division to 1200m AT in A, as long as they have other means to counter armor or are balanced differently. Also 1200m AT isn't needed on half of the maps.

 

[Gilmund]

But I like the new crit system, coz it gives vehicles more survivability and makes more interesting play imo. I agree it introduced certain "problems", but I think it's nothing that can't be ironed out with subtle tweaks.

Also I don't think there is a need to introduce every division to 1200m AT in A, as long as they have other means to counter armor or are balanced differently. Also 1200m AT isn't needed on half of the maps.

Imo not fixing the poor results of at guns and at planes and just giving better tanks assets to inf decks is turning them into what they're not. If we are going to standardise the way each deck is playing then i'm all to give the same kind of type of units to everyone in each phase in some kind of mirror pool (the kind of thing Gondie did ask for multiple times in this thread). But this should be avoided i think cause the deck specialisation is a good thing, allows and forces you to play differently.

There is something going wrong to have at guns hit and not be able to get a kill but only a special effect before dying. Same thing with at planes. It does not work as intended or you have to give inf decks many more at guns for the same price which will just slower games.

 

[RoyalColor]

Imo not fixing the poor results of at guns and at planes and just giving better tanks assets to inf decks is turning them into what they're not. If we are going to standardise the way each deck is playing then i'm all to give the same kind of type of units to everyone in each phase in some kind of mirror pool (the kind of thing Gondie did ask for multiple times in this thread). But this should be avoided i think cause the deck specialisation is a good thing, allows and forces you to play differently.

There is something going wrong to have at guns hit and not be able to get a kill but only a special effect before dying. Same thing with at planes. It does not work as intended or you have to give inf decks many more at guns for the same price which will just slower games.

I do see your point. I still think, a system where I have to mix tanks (for survivability) and AT guns (for stealth) in order to have effective AT, is better. It makes somewhat more dynamic game imo.

 

[Fussel]

Guards armoured has no anti-armour weapon or anti-armoured tank with 1200m range in phase A, either, and it's an armoured division.

In fact, GA's top tank, the Firefly, doesn't arrive until Phase B, but 12SS gets one in Phase A, why aren't you folk arguing about that little balance issue, which has been in-game since day 1?

12. SS is usually not able to put that amount of pressure and offensive out in Phase A like a lot of allied decks including Guards. And if people are overly aggressive they should stop wondering why they keep losing their Beute Firefly/Cromwell .