HOI4 Dev Diary - Tiger post-release | Page 7

davidc929 · Mar 15, 2018

grandad1982 said:
Actually I don't think that is true. I recall a thread a few years back (maybe in the e4 forums) that was kicking off about this data collection. In that thread it was said that the data collected and sent independently of steam. I don't remember it very clearly but if people are interested I guess they can ping a dev.

I know it isn't anything important really but things like that make me rather uneasy.

Jorge Firebomb · Mar 15, 2018

I find the data on what paths people pick fascinating, though I'm curious what nations have been played the most in the expansion so far. Is Nationalist China more popular than Communist? What about the Warlords? Is the new Germany tree drawing more people than the new Japan tree? This last seems likely since most people are still playing historical Japan it seems, and Germany has pretty much always been the most popular nation to play as from what I have heard.

Thyriel · Mar 15, 2018

Alex_brunius said:
The MEFO bills stays until you go to war 1939, so if you start building MIC in 1937 this means you still get to use it for 2.7 out of the 3.7 years preparation for war. ( With historical Danzig ). So even with a bit of Civilian buildup it would be a big boost, not a liability/punishment.

So first year you are loosing PP progressively more and more for no benefit. Then for a year and a half you are loosing much more PP for finally catching up to what position you would have been at, had they not removed the 12 MiL (you have to build 72 MiLs with 20 percent construction bonus for it to amount to the 12 MiLs taken from you to balance the MeFos and that does not even take into account the lost production during the time you did not have them). So the final 1.2 years you actually are getting the 20 percent benefit for all the lost PP, which by now is literarily hundreds of PP. By now I am missing X advisors and their buffs I would have had, had they not taken my PP. Where BTW some of them give +10 construction speed for MiLs, which I will now not be able to get. Sorry, if this is not a punishment, then I do not know what is.

Furthermore, even if you go MiLs from the start, you still loose as you are now producing less of them as you did not build any CiVs. You also have less of CiVs for trade to use the resources for your MiL's slowing your MiL production off even more. So the 20 percent will barely if at all compensate these losses. And you are just paying PP to then be in the same place as you were before the patch.

Your poposition railroads you as Germany into only making MiLs if you want to use your "benefit", which is a liability due to the lack of CiVs. This gets much worse if you do not. It removes your options and punishes you for a different strategy than the one you advocate. Sorry, I do not believe this is desirable.

BSG75 · Mar 15, 2018

Hello, want to report a possible bug with peace conferences. In my war against SU as Turkey i cleared the Caucaus, lost 60k manpower got %10 war contribution, in the resulting peace conference i recieved 0 land, it just opened with Germany Japan already having annexed all land, i pass pass still no option to take anything. Also after SU capiulated Spain became their war leader, i naval invaded and capitulated them also. I am guessing Spain continuing a bit more caused some AI confusion. This never happened before you could always get some land scaled to your war contribution.

Alex_brunius · Mar 15, 2018

Thyriel said:
So first year you are loosing PP progressively more and more for no benefit.

Sorry, but your thinking that Germany has too little PP?? That's completely ridiculous!

Even in 1939 with 3 years of MEFO behind me Germany can get more daily PP then most other majors can get.

In 1936-37 then PP is not even a competition. Between Rhineland and double +15% PP ministers available as well as the crazy PP bonus from Herr H I literally am swimming in PP, and will be able to get any given bonus I prioritize as fast if not faster then anyone else can.

Thyriel · Mar 15, 2018

Alex_brunius said:
Sorry, but your thinking that Germany has too little PP?? That's completely ridiculous!

Even in 1939 with 3 years of MEFO behind me Germany can get more daily PP then most other majors can get.

In 1936-37 then PP is not even a competition. Between Rhineland and double +15% PP ministers available as well as the crazy PP bonus from Herr H I literally am swimming in PP,a nd will be able to get any given bonus I prioritize as fast if not faster then anyone else can.

Are you purposefully changing the topic? Why are you reacting only to one chosen sentence taking it completely out of context?
Yes, Germany has more PP than other nations, but that was so already from before the patch. So Germany was balanced around that fact. So now you are saying Germany's PP gain was imbalanced before the Patch and should be reduced? Because if not, then I do not see what relevance this has to the thread. I would rather have the extra PP + the 12 lost MiLs than the MeFo bills if they are +20 MiL percent construction. I can get more out of it and it does not railroad me into a specific build.

Bambilambi · Mar 15, 2018

Something really needs to be done, for me the MEFO seems way to strong.

I just played a game going civ until mid 38, when i started switching to Mil and by around june -39 to refineries. in august -39 I have no free slots anywhere in Germany and the last few refineries are being built, 11 at the same time!
(Trading with portugal, hungary and turkey will then give me all the resources I need)

Edit:
Another big issue is that I also, at this time, have 14 refineries and by end of november the remaining refineries should all be finished (all slots full basically), some 30+ refiners making me self sufficient in oil and rubber. A very big balance issue imo.

I would suggest less than 3 refineries /are or another tactic.

Perhaps it is the entire trade system, and lack of separate oil/fuel supply mechanic that is at fault and makes balancing industry difficult. A big issue for the for most countries but Germany especially everything basically during ww2 was supply logistics both fuel and other materials. Both for the industry AND the army/air/navy.

Solving this would for example remove the stack of doom issue for Naval units, since it was mainly logistics that hindered this. Ships were waiting in port while small groups were scouting and intercept was the keyword. Maybe a complete realism will get boring gameplay wise, but stack of doom and no worry about supply logistics in a real sense is troubling.

Balancing everything without this is probably a factor in what is giving us these snowball effects for the industry, for Germany.

Zwirbaum · Mar 15, 2018

Bambilambi said:
Something really needs to be done, for me the MEFO seems way to strong.

I just played a game going civ until mid 38, when i started switching to Mil and by around june -39 to refineries. in august -39 I have no free slots anywhere in Germany and the last few refineries are being built, 15 at the same time!
Also, at this time I also have 14 refineries and by end of november they should all be finished and all slots full basically, some 30 refiners making me self sufficient in oil and rubber. Also a very big balance issue imo.

You have one free slot in Memel, you liar!

mursolini · Mar 15, 2018

If MEFO are supposed to speed up buildup to war of Germany, it would make sense for them to give discounts on CIC, Synthetics, MIC/NIC.

If -20% bonus is too strong, reduce it to -10%, but making this more restricted makes little sense. Not only would it rail-road Germany into specific strategy, it will also make no sense. If a government is running a debt pyramid to fund something, that something can be anything, restrictions make zero sense.

best75 · Mar 15, 2018

Are you guys going to change the achievements "Awake and Angry" "The people have stood up" and "Battlecry" so that you don't need to own the ports held by the UK, France, and Portugal? It pretty much turns into a world conquest if you are going for those achievements.

Alex_brunius · Mar 15, 2018

Thyriel said:
Yes, Germany has more PP than other nations, but that was so already from before the patch. So Germany was balanced around that fact. So now you are saying Germany's PP gain was imbalanced before the Patch and should be reduced?

No Germany's PP gain was not balanced before. Not even close. WHY do you think MEFO has a sizeable PP cost if not to bring Germany's PP a bit more into balance?

MEFO or no MEFO Germany's PP gain pre-war when they can't spend it on occupation was in dire need of a big Nerf, so this is totally besides the point.

Zwirbaum · Mar 15, 2018

mursolini said:
If MEFO are supposed to speed up buildup to war of Germany, it would make sense for them to give discounts on CIC, Synthetics, MIC/NIC.

If -20% bonus is too strong, reduce it to -10%, but making this more restricted makes little sense. Not only would it rail-road Germany into specific strategy, it will also make no sense. If a government is running a debt pyramid to fund something, that something can be anything, restrictions make zero sense.

Yes, but having factories producing no consumer goods (0% CG) makes absolutely no sense. Or when you also get sale of planes, you can go to -5%. People are producing consumer goods in their houses so they can be later sent to factories or what?

General construction speed boni would be much better IMO. This way you're still taxed by Consumer Goods, and get's less of a snowball effect, and doesn't limit options or railroads into one strategy.

Donkey Kong · Mar 15, 2018

Rejected title for this diary: In the Wake of Waking the Tiger

mursolini · Mar 15, 2018

Zwireq said:
Yes, but having factories producing no consumer goods (0% CG) makes absolutely no sense. Or when you also get sale of planes, you can go to -5%. People are producing consumer goods in their houses so they can be later sent to factories or what?

It depends on how do you define CIC. In case this is largely construction/appliance/heavy machinery industry, yes, 0% CG is possible.

Zwireq said:
General construction speed boni would be much better IMO. This way you're still taxed by Consumer Goods, and get's less of a snowball effect, and doesn't limit options or railroads into one strategy.

General construction bonus makes little sense, because factories don`t get magically cheaper, because government runs some loan scheme. If goverment can reduce consumption by taking away people`s money in some loan scheme, it does free up industrial capacity for other things, you can build more, but individual item takes just as much.

I don`t see how this has "less" of a snowball effect, effect is precicely the same, the steepness of your CIC exponent will only depend on how large the construction bonus is. Same effect would be achieved with just MEFO bills discount figure adjusted.

Alex_brunius · Mar 15, 2018

mursolini said:
It depends on how do you define CIC. In case this is largely construction/appliance/heavy machinery industry, yes, 0% CG is possible.

Show me which real country that successfully runs with 100% taxation, which is basically was this means ( 100% of the budget and industry devoted to the will of the state & military ), and I might believe you.

I would also be interested in examples of real countries achieving 70-90% growth of GDP per year ( similar to the rate that MEFO Germany can expand in HoI4 ).

mursolini said:
I don`t see how this has "less" of a snowball effect, effect is precicely the same, the steepness of your CIC exponent will only depend on how large the construction bonus is. Same effect would be achieved with just MEFO bills discount figure adjusted.

Any bonus risks snowballing CIC, but you need much more then +10% or +20% CIC construction speed to get the same effect as -20% consumer goods and here is why.

-20% consumer goods increase the efficiency of any CIC by 1/0.8 = 1.25 and is calculated multiplicative with other effects for a straight of +25% boost. The higher CG your already paying the higher this effect becomes ( this was with 20% CG -> 0% ).

A bonus of for example +30% construction speed for CIC ends up being added on all the other modifiers (+15% from free trade, +20% from techs +10% from NFs and +10% from Advisor ) so in practice it's actual bonus is closer to 1.85/1.55 = 1.19 or +19% boost, much smaller then the -20% CG impact.

+10% CIC/Infra/Refinery construction and +20 or even 30% MIC construction should be pretty safe.

Thyriel · Mar 15, 2018

Alex_brunius said:
No Germany's PP gain was not balanced before. Not even close. WHY do you think MEFO has a sizeable PP cost if not to bring Germany's PP a bit more into balance?

MEFO or no MEFO Germany's PP gain pre-war when they can't spend it on occupation was in dire need of a big Nerf, so this is totally besides the point.

Now you are changing the argument into Germany has too much PP that is why we need MeFos? So you agree it is a punishment not an advantage? Strange.

Anyway, you do not support in any way your claim that Germany was unbalanced before the patch due to PP. Neither can I find on the forum or on google a serious discussion where it would be claimed this was the case. The Dev's also in no way support or claim MeFo's as a way to remove Germany's PP.

It is ridiculous to claim something like that, as if this was the case, the easiest thing to do would have been to just remove Hitler's PP bonus. Why introduce a whole new mechanic for that?

To conclude, just because you claim something does not make it so. If you are correct, then remove the MeFo's and remove part or whole of Hitler's PP bonus. Then Germany is on the PP daily gain front on the same level as anyone else. Germany should then be offered to get the same amount of PP from focuses as anyone else to make it balanced. I am sure you agree? Give Germany 12 MiLs back as well from the start.

Alex_brunius · Mar 15, 2018

Thyriel said:
It is ridiculous to claim something like that, as if this was the case, the easiest thing to do would have been to just remove Hitler's PP bonus. Why introduce a whole new mechanic for that?

The answer to that question is in my post you quoted, had you bothered to read it, as well as in the history books surrounding Germany's historical rearmament and economy. I can recommend Tooze's The Wages of Destruction on this specific topic.

DovahCheese · Mar 15, 2018

Any chance the Americans are going to get a new Focus tree? Because the one they currently have is pretty dull

Thyriel · Mar 15, 2018

Alex_brunius said:
The answer to that question is in my post you quoted, had you bothered to read it, as well as in the history books surrounding Germany's historical rearmament and economy. I can recommend Tooze's The Wages of Destruction on this specific topic.

I guess there is a misunderstanding. Are you justifying balance adjustments and a claim that a nation in a game is unbalanced in that game by referencing a history book on reality? Are you sure you are not mixing game balance and historical accuracy? Because I see no relevance of the recommended history book to a discussion on game balance in a game... Again, I repeat, you did not claim Germany was historically inaccurate, you claim it is evidently unbalanced in the game - stating that this is a recognised fact without providing any reasoning or proof that this is so.

The answer or any evidence supporting your claim of Germany being unbalanced due to PP before patch is nowhere in your post. I did read it.

mursolini · Mar 15, 2018

Alex_brunius said:
Show me which real country that successfully runs with 100% taxation, which is basically was this means ( 100% of the budget and industry devoted to the will of the state & military ), and I might believe you.

I would also be interested in examples of real countries achieving 70-90% growth of GDP per year ( similar to the rate that MEFO Germany can expand in HoI4 ).

Prove that CIC+MIC+NIC = 100% GDP first, or quit comparing apples to oranges.

Alex_brunius said:
Any bonus risks snowballing CIC, but you need much more then +10% or +20% CIC construction speed to get the same effect as -20% consumer goods and here is why.

-20% consumer goods increase the efficiency of any CIC by 1/0.8 = 1.25 and is calculated multiplicative with other effects for a straight of +25% boost. The higher CG your already paying the higher this effect becomes ( this was with 20% CG -> 0% ).

A bonus of for example +30% construction speed for CIC ends up being added on all the other modifiers (+15% from free trade, +20% from techs +10% from NFs and +10% from Advisor ) so in practice it's actual bonus is closer to 1.85/1.55 = 1.19 or +19% boost, much smaller then the -20% CG impact.

+10% CIC/Infra/Refinery construction and +20 or even 30% MIC construction should be pretty safe.

Yes, I don`t know why you bothered writing this. As I said, If current MEFO version is imbalanced, it is easier to adjust numbers down, it will have same effect.

If you want to argue balance of MEFO, just say it loud and clear : German CIC exponent is far outside of normal CIC exponent other countries have, hence needs to be toned down. I don`t see any need to argue "gdp growth is unrealistic in a wargame".

You can also even go ahead and calculate by how much should MEFO be adjusted, and people in the thread could argue if your version is better or not.

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