Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Holy Fury Reformations?

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Crusader Kings II 69946 Bug Reports 19719 User Modifications 10605 Suggestions 5969 Tech Support 6374 After Action Reports
Empoleon Blownaparte

Empoleon Blownaparte

Second Lieutenant
1 Badges
Sep 26, 2015
111
17
  • Crusader Kings II
Hey, this has been brought up at least twice now, to my knowledge, and I just wanted to have a more permanent place for discussing it, since it usually passes in conversation to another topic.

I'm probably not one to talk about it, since i know little of Elder Scrolls lore, but at the same time I'd love to see Daedric Cults be reformable with these new mechanics, as I have been lead to believe by those more knowledgable than I that the Daedric Princes are Emovoric in nature. I'd honestly love to see a Cult of Sheogorath, Sanguine, or even the sadistic Vaermina go benevolent (It's not that hard to say to your crazy followers that the God of Insanity, Pleasure, or Dreams preaches benevolence, even if beforehand they're a lot less friendly, especially Vaermina, but of course that would be limited and the nicer doctrines probably wouldn't be available for some of them)

Perhaps in order to reform a Daedric Cult, you must either be the chosen of that Daedra (Either through causing an Invasion in their name, or maybe a new event chain to give you a trait similar to the Patron traits) or they must be waning in power to the point they can't really stop you from changing their image.

Maybe some Doctrines change what traits the Prince likes, and maybe some new "Generic" doctrines could be added, like, an "Aesthetic" Doctrine that opens an event chain for creating works of art in their name, and makes them like Attractive and Poet characters (Obviously not available for Namira, and probably default for Sanguine, Vaermina and maybe Sheogorath)

Anyone want to weigh in? Perhaps even one of the devs?
 
Last edited:
If i understand correctly, problem when faced with daedric cults is that they are not your usual religions with everything in the hands of worshippers. Daedric cults have personal contact with their deities and their servants to the point you cannot even eradicate them properly because every now and then someone will talk with daedra itself and start new cult.
So, good luck with convincing Vaermina to be benevolent, Mehrunes Dagon to maybe stop wrecking everything or Sheogorath to settle down :)

But the reformations are seem fun, so maybe with some restictions?
 
Thats why I figured said restriction could be only if the Prince was waning in power and interest and physically couldn't be there. As I said every time I've asked people have told me they were Emovoric in divinity, existing as their followers believe them to, so please correct me if I'm wrong and have been misguided.

I personally wouldn't mind whatever restrictions are needed short of outright lobotomizing the system.
 
Mannimarco's goal in ESO is to become Molag Bal or the new daedric prince of domination by soul trapping him inside the amulet of kings right? Maybe daedric cult reformation could be done akin to that where you require the amulet of kings, high learning and a rare event chain or decision to usurp your daedric god with a chance of death ofc.

Essentially your becoming the new daedric god so that would mean you can change the rules of the entire cult permanently and maybe even replace the name of the daedric god in the JD interface with your character's name or a custom one.
 
That honestly makes all too much sense! Maybe along with the Mannimarco route, a more benign "Champion" route similar to the Shivering Isles where for some reason the Prince steps down to you. The canon equivalent being the Champion of Cyrodiil becoming the new Sheogorath after Shivering Isles. Maybe a highly pious follower could try and become the Daedric Prince's champion through decision, resulting in a similarly big and risky event chain to the Immortality Quest, and once you become the Champion you can either stay loyal to the Prince as is to get more immediate rewards, or try to best the Daedric Prince themself at their own game, probably with multiple different challenges of the player's choice so different characters can have their own chance to beat them and reform the religion.

Say you take on Sanguine in a drinking contest, or a contest to see how many people you can seduce, or just how many people you can just make happy. Against Vaermina a more fittingly cruel ruler could choose to pick one person each to torture and whoever causes their victim more suffering wins, or a kinder, aesthetically beautiful character challenges her on who can make an artist create more beautiful works of art. Challenging Hermaeus Mora could result in inventing something that would put the Dwemer to shame (Steam-powered Chariot ride across Skyrim, anyone?) or besting him in a battle of wits. The challenge against Nocturnal for a fittingly cunning character could be a game of inter-dimensional hide and seek where it ends with the player just waiting for the time to be up and saying "Found you" when she teleports in to deal out the punishment. Maybe Malacath, Molag Bal and Mehrunez Dagon would just be straight up a "you beat it you bought it" type deal where you best them in combat. One option for Sheogorath would probably just be the events of Shivering Isle.

As far as I know, that would be canonically impossible, but who else would be able to usurp a God than someone who can do the impossible? Anyone else got some ideas for how that would play out?

Hell, if they don't do this, I kind of want to figure out how to mod it in myself! It'd be hype as hell!
 
Last edited:
Empoleon Blownaparte said:
As far as I know, that would be canonically impossible, but who else would be able to usurp a God than someone who can do the impossible? Anyone else got some ideas for how that would play out?

Hell, if they don't do this, I kind of want to figure out how to mod it in myself! It'd be hype as hell!
Click to expand...

When you get into the deep lore of TES, it starts to look both much more complicated but also much simpler than this. I think. To become a god doesn't have to be usurpation. There's lots of really murky stuff about people blending into one another. One historical figure acts like another until nobody can remember which was which. You've mentioned Sheogorath/Jyggalag/Champion of Cyrodil, but there are plenty of others others. Becoming a god that already exists is an established part of the canon - the fourth walking way to reach heaven by violence.

"Mantling by way of the fourth - the steps of the dead. Walk like them until they must walk like you."

Auri-El was the king of the gods who created the world, but he was also the mortal Aldmeri king who ascended to heaven. And he's also Akatosh and Alduin. But they're also all different. Shor was son of Shor and Ald, son of Ald. Talos, Tiber, Hjalti, Zurin, Cuhlecain, Ysmir, the Underking - which is which, and where does one end and the others begin? Boethiah ate Trinimc to become him and wear his skin, only to shed it again so Trinimac could become Malacath. Azura became Seht became Azura, Mephala became Vehk became Mephala, Boethiah became Ayem became Boethiah.

"Hortator and Sharmat, one and one, eleven, an inelegant number. Which of the ones is the more important? Could you ever tell if they switched places?"

And that's just the weird bits and pieces I can remember off the top of my head. Basically ascension, identity, and godhood are really fucking weird and murky in TES lore, and mortals becoming gods (either new ones or existing ones) is almost routine.
 
One word: Nerevarine. The potential for roleplaying the fall of the Tribunal with Holy Fury is amazing. I mean, of course we could have the Reclamations as it actually happened, but what if the Nerevarine prophecy was fulfilled in another way? Reforming the Nerevarine faith into several different outcomes would not be only cool, but would also make sense. The other obvious choice would be the Eight/Nine Divines. Maybe an immortal Tiber Septim (why not?) follows the path of Orgnum and becomes a living god for humankind.

The other two reasonable choices, based on their tribal nature and not being fully develop into churches as other religions, would be the Reach faiths and the Hist. Although it would be so cool to be able to reform daedric cults, it would just be a "cool" addition, whereas Reclamations, Divines, Reach and Hist would make sense lorewise and would also add flavour to the mod.
 
Post-Orgnumic would be an obvious one, allowing the one who took down Orgnum to shape Maormeri culture as he so desires.

What would be neat is give existing religion placeholder heresies that could be reformed, simulating heretical reforms. For example, this mod used to have the Apologists heresy for the Auri-el faith, but removed it and many others due to lack of interesting gameplay elements backing them up. With my idea, while at first the heresies would be blank, you could reform it, simulating a underground and very poorly defined and structured religious movement transforming into an organized and recognized institution.

These heresies, if it is possible, should have nature or doctrine allowing the player to decide their faith's stance on the many theological issues of Tamriel, like whether the Mundus was a good idea, if Lorkhan is good or bad, whether Daedra should be worshiped or not, et caetera. If it isn't possible, or unwieldy, to do so with the Natures and Doctrines, then simply make several heresies for a given religion with a base position. Apologists, for example, would be Nirn=(somewhat) good and Lorkhan=Misguided (I think, it's been a while since the heresies were removed, I don't remember them all that well).

Depending on the nature of your reformed faith, you would get bonus opinion with those who share the same view as you. Again, for example, the Apologists would get along far better with Eight/Nine Divine believers, while meeting the scorn of Alikr believers who can't believe that you'd think Sep plan was any good.
 
One thing's for sure I really think that the Alessian religion could do with some love in regards to reformation capability. In fact I think that they would even serve as a good mirror for vanilla's Hellenic revival.

Can have something where Cyrodiilic cultures (Heartlanders, Colovians and Nibeneans - possibly others, possibly humans in general) on a holy site could get the "Delve into Classics" decision to represent rediscovering Marukh's teachings and go down the rabbit hole of reviving the Alessian Order; at the moment the Order exists with a religious head, but of course other than him there's no faithful to speak of. It would be neat reconstructing what is probably one of the more artificial religions of Elder Scrolls similar to how Holy Fury made it done for Hellenic, by doing it overtly or through secret religious cults. Not only that but the fact that the Order was pretty much against every other religious institutions makes perfect sense as to why all vassals, whether their pantheon is the divines or elven, as well as all the daedric worshipers among them would rise up together against a crazy Emperor who tries to institute the Alessian religion as the state religious authority, just like how Christians, Muslims, and everyone else would rise up against a Hellenic revival in vanilla.

Alessian is perfect for reviving "That one dead religion" when it comes to EK, after all it seems to primarily exist just for the history at the moment so this is a potential avenue to have some fun.

I also really like the other suggestions. As @Asleam said Post-Orgnumic Thought would greatly benefit from the modular aspect of the new reformation mechanics. That religion can seriously go in any direction.
 
Last edited:
Reformation could also work for the faith of the islanders between Akavir and Tamriel, after all they are some kind of polytheist daedric cultist mixed with lovecraft, the animist faith of the northern Atmorans could also use this mechanic.
 
Fathuran said:
One thing's for sure I really think that the Alessian religion could do with some love in regards to reformation capability. In fact I think that they would even serve as a good mirror for vanilla's Hellenic revival.
Click to expand...

Would be cool on the otherhand if it functioned like base-game Catholicism in terms of having special crusades, a all-powerful clergy akin to the papacy, monastic society and a knightly holy order. It just seems like a good fit considering the theme.
 
I really want reformations in. I dont play as daedric follower much, but I'd like to reform other religions in Tamriel since most of the mainland lacks the features I like, concubinage and polygamy
 
Realistically there's one instance ingame where the reformation mechanics would fit perfectly: the rise of the Nine Divines faith. It would make sense that a religion that can rise regardless of who forms the Empire of Tamriel would need to be able to take on differing aspects to represent the personality, culture, and achievements of the one who created the Empire in the first place as they ascend to divinity, after all.
 
Ruisuki said:
I really want reformations in. I dont play as daedric follower much, but I'd like to reform other religions in Tamriel since most of the mainland lacks the features I like, concubinage and polygamy
Click to expand...
Yeah the problem with Elder scrolls is that religion is kind of... Bland. Besides the Daedric princes it's kind of boreing that almost all the humans have the same religion and the same views on marriage and gender. The only big differences are race based which is not really built to the strengths of crusader kings.
 
Wandering Sentinel said:
Realistically there's one instance ingame where the reformation mechanics would fit perfectly: the rise of the Nine Divines faith. It would make sense that a religion that can rise regardless of who forms the Empire of Tamriel would need to be able to take on differing aspects to represent the personality, culture, and achievements of the one who created the Empire in the first place as they ascend to divinity, after all.
Click to expand...
This, but maybe make some limitations. The reformation system is largely moddable, you know.
 
Nordic faith. Starts out as its glorious old self, can reform into either 9 Divines lite (lite because they still worshipped nordic gods in tes5 mind you, just incredibly influenced by the 9 divines.) or what was originally planned for the Nordic faith in tes5, until they decided on 9 Divines lite.

Edit: Cancel that, I just remembered you can have different names for gods in different cultures I think.
 
Asleam said:
Post-Orgnumic would be an obvious one, allowing the one who took down Orgnum to shape Maormeri culture as he so desires.
Click to expand...

Yes but not the one who took down. More, once Orgnums gone it could trigger a crisis and then reformation would be, how do we go on without him, how do we live now.
Not, Lo I slayeth thou god worship me and submit to my will.
Maybe just, normal reformation requirements but can only happen once orgnum is dead, and combine it with an event that throws negative modifiers on the pre-reformed as soon as Orgnum falls?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back