Colonists are a bit superfluous in Green Planet

[YertyL]

So, I am almost done terraforming mars for the first time (100 100 100 85 at this point), and I really really like almost all of it: The process of turning the red desert into a flourishing countryside with lakes and trees is visually absolutely stunning; terraforming also feels appropriately epic and nicely fills the role of late-game ressource sink that was IMO somewhat needed in the base game.

There is just one gripe I have with the terraforming process: Colonists seem kind of superfluous for the whole thing. They are even made obsolete with the introduction of outdoor farms, research sattelites, and magnetic generators producing research, which fill two of the main roles of colonists in the base game.
You're fine with setting up your three advanced ressource productions (poly, parts, electronics) in the first 30 sols, and that's that. I barely expanded past 3 barrel domes for a long time, because I did not have to. You are in a way even discouraged, because the limiting factor for terraforming -- water, directly or in the form of fuel -- tends to be your limiting factor for dome expansion as well. The expansion sort of turns the dynamic of the base game on its head -- instead of drones arriving initially to set up the conditions for the colonists who do the real work, we now have colonists setting up for the drones/rockets to do the real work.

I find that a little...sad. I had hoped that the terraforming project would be a triumph of the collective work of your most brilliant and motivated minds. Heck, botanists even "dream of a green Mars" in their description, and barely get to contribute anything to actually making the planet green. Ironically enough, they are the ones made most obsolete by terraforming with the open farm. And while I like that rockets have become more important, it is IMO a bad trade if it means colonists are not needed beyond setting up the basic factories.

So, my fix would be this:

Make the advanced terraforming buildings (carbonate processor, core heat convector, magnetic field generator) manned.

And heftily so, like 30-40 worker buildings, so that you have to set up a dome just for them. Core heat seems to be a perfect fit for geologists, carbonate processors would require engineers, while field generators would require scientists (they already give research). Ideally, there should also be a comparable building for botanists (weather control center? Seed storage?) that increases global vegetation and/or water slowly, because doing the same project literally 20 times in a row is pretty tedious. I would honestly limit the rocket projects to 2-3 repetitions -- while it's good that rockets now have a use, I think it's weird if their contribution is so much above anything else you can do.

So yeah, this would IMO reward dome expansion in mid game and later, give you an incentive to have a lot of educated, motivated people, and give your people something to do besides wasting ressources in workshops. I think it would be a great improvement and I have a hard time seeing any negative impact... opinions?

 

[Walshicus]

Absolutely agree with this assessment. The seed project is - I think with no exaggeration - the worst element of the game now.

And yeah, it's a shame that colonists are kind of ignored by the end game.

 

[Zheega]

I completely agree. Saving resources on colonists and redirecting them to terraforming is what I instinctively started to do once I saw there is no colonist requirement. Also, terraforming still seems to easy and too fast. Planting first seeds on Mars should be incredibly difficult. There needs to be an additional building that first converts toxic soil to plantable soil (need a "soil parameter" that slowly starts to improve by itself after clear rains start falling). Also, GHG factories shouldn't be able to increase surface temperature while there is no atmosphere. All outside factories (everything from concrete extractors to GHG factories) should be slowly (but really, really slowly) improving the atmosphere.

Overall, I would say that Green Planet is a great expansion and was very needed for this game. It just needs some improvement

 

[YertyL]

I completely agree. Saving resources on colonists and redirecting them to terraforming is what I instinctively started to do once I saw there is no colonist requirement. Also, terraforming still seems to easy and too fast. Planting first seeds on Mars should be incredibly difficult. There needs to be an additional building that first converts toxic soil to plantable soil (need a "soil parameter" that slowly starts to improve by itself after clear rains start falling). Also, GHG factories shouldn't be able to increase surface temperature while there is no atmosphere. All outside factories (everything from concrete extractors to GHG factories) should be slowly (but really, really slowly) improving the atmosphere.

Overall, I would say that Green Planet is a great expansion and was very needed for this game. It just needs some improvement

Is it too fast? It took a very long time for me, though that might be because I was overeager to try it and did not set up a proper colonist production first, limiting progress overall. I also first thought lakes were key for global water, and that the potential marsquake was a real downside for the ice asteroids...so yeah, beginner mistakes :-D

And for me, it depends on what you mean by "easy": I think it just taking an incredibly long time (like repeating the seed project a hundred times) is not a good option. It requiring a really well developed colony, i.e. taking the role that workshops have in the base game, is IMO the way to go,at least for everything above 25% values. Then the time alone could IMO also be sped up -- if you have those 30, or 60, or 120 specialists of each field (and also ressources?) to spare. If every late game terraforming building required a whole medium dome to support itself, time requirements would go up organically.

Of course, scaling options would also be nice.

 

[jordanjay29]

Also, GHG factories shouldn't be able to increase surface temperature while there is no atmosphere.

I completely agree here, I was pretty stunned that I could build and operate the GHG factories without there being any atmospheric pressure. I do feel like the terraforming algorithms need some more interdependence. Like planting local vegetation, global temperature shouldn't be able to increase that much without a minimum amount of pressure (e.g. 15%), and it should remain capped at some point until the pressure continues to increase.

Maybe we need more fine-tuning settings in the game setup for this stuff. Or a mod. I think the current setup is just fine for a casual player, but just like options exist to make the vanilla game harder I'd like options to make the terraforming harder.

 

[YertyL]

I completely agree here, I was pretty stunned that I could build and operate the GHG factories without there being any atmospheric pressure. I do feel like the terraforming algorithms need some more interdependence. Like planting local vegetation, global temperature shouldn't be able to increase that much without a minimum amount of pressure (e.g. 15%), and it should remain capped at some point until the pressure continues to increase.

Maybe we need more fine-tuning settings in the game setup for this stuff. Or a mod. I think the current setup is just fine for a casual player, but just like options exist to make the vanilla game harder I'd like options to make the terraforming harder.

Agree on the interdependence...it could mostly boil down to some requirements for some buildings (like atmosphere for GHG), but that would be appreciated.
My personal surprise was that for a breathable atmosphere, you apparently do not need plants at all. I always kind of assumed you first pump Co2 into the atmosphere, then get plant life for the O2. But apparently, the plants are just for show.
Maybe we could distinguish "atmosphere" and "breathable atmosphere", with the latter having vegetation requirements?

EDIT: The order in which we do terraforming also seems weird... I thought you would do atmosphere -> temperature -> water -> plants. Instead, plants are the very first tech to unlock (you cannot really use them though).

 

[Zheega]

Yes, exactly. I think a major "fix" is required.

Most important one: Make colonists a requirement for most terraforming buildings. This should make terraforming slower and more complex.

Second one: Add some kind of "soil purifying" buildings for making soil non-toxic. Once you start to get pure rain, soil toxicity should very slowly start to decrease everywhere.

Thirdly: Once there is rain, lowest regions on the map should be forming lakes and rivers. If water in lakes is toxic, some kind of automated building can be used to clean it.

Finally: Make the order of terraforming correct. First atmosphere (all industrial buildings should add to that, including extractors, GHG factories,...). When you have some atmosphere (atmosphere and later O2 should be the slowest parameters to increase), temperature should slowly start to increase by itself, aided by GHG plants. Then you slowly start to get liquid water, then some basic forms of plants on non-toxic soil. Then O2. Soil toxicity and O2 parameters should be added.

It sounds complex, but most of these would be easy fixes and would make Green Planet awesome!

 

[aono]

Thirdly: Once there is rain, lowest regions on the map should be forming lakes and rivers. If water in lakes is toxic, some kind of automated building can be used to clean it.

I do agree with it; I was playing on Elysium Beta start as my first green run, and I almost expected that canyon in the middle of the map to became a big strat. I was sad when it never happened.

Three little problems that should be adressed:
1. That means drowing of everything (and everybody) who is in said lake; so if it would be a thing, some kind of "warning" should be in order.
2. Networks of drone controllers and energy structures can (and probably would) be splitted with such a drowning, meaning we need some kind of means to traverse such water bodies (like bridges).
3. If rivers and such things are full and clean, it would be silly to retort to underground reserves or moisture vaporisers to gain water.

 

[jordanjay29]

If rivers and such things are full and clean, it would be silly to retort to underground reserves or moisture vaporisers to gain water.

The pure rains seems like it should do something more than merely improve soil quality. Like have some open capture tanks for rainwater? This would give the cloud seeding projects something useful to do instead of just being a generic feel-good mode (as the rains occur anyway without cloud seeding)?

 

[Xeorm]

I actually liked the process as it stands regarding colonists in the process. It seemed to fit the general theme that the drones do the stuff outside while the colonists do their usual jobs of making colonists, advanced resources, and not dying. Fits neatly too in that as the brain behind the colony the things that the drones do feel more like things that I've done than things with the colonists.

 

[aono]

The pure rains seems like it should do something more than merely improve soil quality. Like have some open capture tanks for rainwater? This would give the cloud seeding projects something useful to do instead of just being a generic feel-good mode (as the rains occur anyway without cloud seeding)?

Actually, as I think about it, "water being scarcity" doesn't make any actual sense on terraformed Mars. If you can afford asteroid rediverting and nuking polar caps projects, or mohole mine for crying it loud, it should be simple enough to make aquedukes from nearby water body, with filters and desalinators if needed.
Or at least it should be possible to "build" lakes on the water deposites, and to take water directly from them if water terraforming allowing normal liquid water. With, again, lakes taking this water out from deposites with the same speed as from player's reserves. Considering that it's both logical and making player to choose if he want to simply build water extractor or make a lake and facilites to deal with toxic water (which eat resources) on earlier stages, I think it's valid idea.

 

[YertyL]

I actually liked the process as it stands regarding colonists in the process. It seemed to fit the general theme that the drones do the stuff outside while the colonists do their usual jobs of making colonists, advanced resources, and not dying. Fits neatly too in that as the brain behind the colony the things that the drones do feel more like things that I've done than things with the colonists.

If a frickin' iron mine needs to be manned, then so does a huge reverse geothermal plant. Especially the magnetic generator producing research without human input just seems...bizarre. The game is obviously a bit inconsistent in that regard (mine is manned, mohole mine is not), but my main argument would be gameplay: No matter how high you make the power draw, requiring specialists is always going to be a harder but also far more interesting requirement.
Also thematically, if my colonists are completely pointless after the first three domes, I will at some point start to wonder who the hell I'm doing the whole terraforming thing for.

I do agree with it; I was playing on Elysium Beta start as my first green run, and I almost expected that canyon in the middle of the map to became a big strat. I was sad when it never happened.

Three little problems that should be adressed:
1. That means drowing of everything (and everybody) who is in said lake; so if it would be a thing, some kind of "warning" should be in order.(...)

I think that's the main one: you would have to plan your bases around later flooding, which would be a pretty big headache gameplay- and programming-wise. So I'm fine with lakes being the way they are. I guess you could have the lake pits just auto-fill when rain falls, but in principle this is IMO better than dynamic flooding that might cover half the map. Not all maps have convenient pits.

 

[aono]

I think that's the main one: you would have to plan your bases around later flooding, which would be a pretty big headache gameplay- and programming-wise.

Well, that's true; still, sight of that big hole filling with water on your map is, I believe, really astonishing, when a great flood rushing to the empty space. Also it would sea level rises warnings actually MEAN something.

 

[Eled the Worm Tamer]

They should be feedback loops not just static 'make the numbers bigger'

Example: So you've thickened the atmosphere, and warmed it with GHGs, mainly CO2, and now youve seeded algae and lichens?
Which have an explosive bloom and start pulling all your warming CO2 out of the atmosphere trigeringa freeze.

 

[SillySMS]

I don't fully agree on capping the number of times you can repeat rocket missions, though I could very much agree on requiring specialists for those events.

Also, the global seeding thing is terrible. An almost purely time-based gate for reaching 100% vegetation (with a trivial amount of resource investment) makes for a staggeringly boring endgame if you have everything else maxed out. In the theme of needing specialists... I could see a fast-repeating mission for increasing global vegetation that pulls out a very large number of botanists and advanced resources as a "manual" seeding to contrast with the rocket-based "spray and pray" approach.

 

[Eled the Worm Tamer]

There definitely need to be faster ways to raise plant-life, rally it should have an exponential growth at around the point the acid rains stop. Then each rainfall should be making it more hospitable and once life is it spreads, plant-life should take a lot of effort to start, but almost none to finish once conditions are suitable.

Edit: another easy example? Water vapor is itself a GHG, so increasing the water level should once you raise temps to allow, well exactly the gaseous water vapiterators use, help with the warming too.

And a square meter of forest canopy releases more water vapor than the same ara of ocean surface so when you have forests plants should help the water balance..

Treating atmosphere/water/temp/greening as separate metrics instead of simply notes in an on going and evolving melody is doing the game, its players and the grandeur of such an ongoing process a dire disservice.

 

[Zheega]

Yes, but clear rains should be much harder to achieve. The main problem is IMO that all terraforming percentages are static, unconnected to other terraforming parameters and (mostly) linearly increase with just one GHG plant for example.

 

[ShaTiK]

While I only played one complete game in Green planet - I totally agree with that. The only thing I really needed colonists was research and advanced resources. But since a lot of maps have research sites in close proximity (not to mention breakthrough with forests creating new ones) I finished all the research with only 2 medium research domes (4 institutes in total and I think it was far from optimal, I always neglect passages). And resources - again, came from a total of 6 factories with all the production bonuses and increased workload due to sanity-buffing breakthrough (which totally negates sanity drain by extended workshifts).
At some point I was like - and why exactly do I need more colonists? I had 12k food in bank thanks to giant crops and dedicated greenhouse dome, so no problem with food - but for what purpose I need more people?
So yes, all terraforming buildings have to be manned. Plus it would be nice to have more options for vegetation.
And, as someone already mentioned, the whole terraforming process, imo, should be interconnected. I was really surprised when I found out that I could start planting vegetation and heating up the atmosphere almost day 1. I mean - what am I heating up? There is basically no atmosphere. Not to mention the extremely generous atmosphere - it only starts to disappear around 40% mark iirc. I know it's for gameplay reasons, so as a compromise I think the game would really benefit from a new game rule 'more realistic terraforming' - in which the atmosphere is blown away right away, the heating is tied to atmosphere, water tied to atmo AND temp and vegetation is tied to all 3 of the above. So you would do all these in steps.
Don't get me wrong - I really like the DLC and patch. It's just a bit sad that this DLC is kinda like the vanilla game - the concept is nice, but the execution is a bit lacking. Not in a major way - rather is small, but still significant. Vanilla had no endgame - this DLC introduces one, but again in a bit weird and too easy way

 

[Foefaller]

I haven't gotten this DLC yet, but based on what's been said here and what's on the wiki I probably could wait until the next time the season pass is on sale and hope for an update by then.

Not exactly on topic, but one thing that troubles me from afar is how few terraforming-related disasters there are. Terraforming Mars shouldn't just be expensive and time-consuming. It should be the most dangerous extended period of time for your colony outside of the hardest mysteries, baring challenges and game rules. Doubly so if you try simply maxing out one parameter at a time without regards to the others. Dust storms shouldn't disappear but become Dust Bowls, taking your precious soil quality with them ala toxic rain until you have the vegetation to retain water and keep the topsoil in place. Maxing out temperature should replace cold waves with heat waves, especially if you haven't bothered with water yet. Abundant water should bring not only rain, but risk of flooding and, if temperatures are low enough, blizzards, made worse if there isn't enough floating in air or growing in ground that can trap the extra moisture. And introducing vegetation should be a delicate balancing act, with the wrong parameters causing everything from mass die-offs that sends you back to square 1 to toxic blooms that could disrupt Oxygen production by MOXIEs and sicken your colonists, especially if you had brazenly opened the domes already.

 

[Major Malfunction]

Well, that could solve huge unemployment problems later on maybe